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[T_Bone]

Dan wrote:

No, it sends the clear message that women, because it is mostly women, don´t have the right to decide over their own bodies!
You would fit nicely in with those old patriarch in OT!

It has nothing to do with women and what they do with their bodies. They may do what they like with their bodies, but if they decide to operate a business, they must follow business laws, regardless if the product fo sale is their bodies or oranges. :-)

I've given up on these things though, if it's going to happen, it's going to happen, so regulate it, and zone it to other areas if necessary

[T_Bone]

Dan wrote:

Sorry but that doesn´t get you anywhere when talking about the moment someone becomes alive.

The baby is alive, the moment we can determine it hasn't died.

[T_Bone]

Dan wrote:

Well since it´s legal if they are over 18, duh!

Good point.

Arn't statistics funny?

[KennyR]

Dan wrote:
I consider my cat to be worth more than certain humans.

Bravo. With one statement you invalidated your whole argument.

[Bobsonsirjonny]

One thing that people often overlook are the psychological implications on the mother.

I was outside blockbuster video once in Newcastle - a young girl was screaming her head of and completetly laying into this lad with her fists. Turns out that she had an abortion at his request, and he had been cheating on her. She felt doubly wrotten.

I dont think anyone would say no to someone wanting to have an abortion if carrying the child could result in their death, nor would they in the case of rape - for these are extremes, and impossible situations already: Do I choose the life of this child, at the risk of my own death, or both of our deaths?

But abortion seems to becoming a form of contraceptive. This is IMHO wholey abhorant. Where do we draw the line? Who desides where that line is drawn?

We have contraception, the pill is very successful, condoms also work, and serve as a form of protection against disease. And for when there are accidents there is emergency contraception in the form of the morning after pill (which is technically an abortion - but IIRC forces menstuation before the cells have actually done anything). I'm not blind to the fact that accidents happen, but the trouble is people shag like rabbits without thinking of the potential consequences, and planning to prevent them. Some girls in my sisters school - and shes in year 10, still think that you can't get pregnant if "you do it standing up". The education is there, but the urban ledgends still prevail.

[MAD]

Hoya!

I heartfully agree with you Bobsonsirjohnny!

Some (too many) people tend to see abortion as a means of contraception, it is NOT!

Women fought for decades to be seen as members of the soviety, resulting in the launch of the pill in the 60's.
So, for God's sake, USE it!!!

Besides, I think this is particularly a problem in England. Granted that in France many teenagers get preggo, I think the figures are far higher in the UK.

Moreover, although I have NOTHING against sex :-) I tend to think that getting laid too soon is not a good thing.
I believe one needs to have a bit of maturity to fully enjoy "The Thing".
So, instead of shunning sexual education in schools because "it's bad and Thou Shall not Shag Before Marriage!", governments should DO something to educate people BEFORE they make mistakes.

Even if some hate this, our society has evolved and teenage sex is not a myth anymore ;-)

/me put Cecilia smiley here ;-D

Besides, it is a good thing to do to protect people from AIDS, too.

Be funky

M A D

[Speelgoedmannetje]

Before you rant about the Dutch abortion policy, maybe you should read this (pdf)

[tormedhammaren]

They have them secured in their cars. if I remmeber correctly?

Yes, more and more patrol cars have locked down one hand firearms (pistols, revolvers). They are only allowed to lock them out on ordres from the police chief.

[Glaucus]

But abortion seems to becoming a form of contraceptive. This is IMHO wholey abhorant. Where do we draw the line? Who desides where that line is drawn?

I don't see what the big deal is. It doesn't bother me one bit. In my mind I don't see the fetus as a person, and I don't care technically what it is. If the parents don't want it for whatever reason, then it's their decision as far as I'm concerned.

EDIT: I should mention that goes only for early term abortions. Once they have to start removing individual limbs out of the womb I think it changes things a bit.

- Mike

[mdwh2]

KennyR wrote:
The permissiveness is my point. Simply turning a blind eye to anything that is socially wrong doesn't solve it either, and that's a fact. In the Netherlands, most illegal drugs are hard. Here, they are mostly soft (for now). In the Netherlands, most illegal prostitutes are underage. Here they are all in their 40s. How is the Dutch super-liberalism solving anything? Has it solved the problems of addiction or human sexual slavery? No, it hasn't.

No one ever claimed it would, and nor should it.

However, if you're going to make something illegal, and lock people up, you need a damn good reason.

But then, I'm of the opinion that things should be legal by default (ie, in the absense of any benefit to society either way).

Socialist or not, I'm afraid I'm a humanist first and foremost, so my ethics don't allow me to accept abortion, euthanasia, prostitution, or legal narcotics.

I'm a humanist, and in favour of all these things..

[mdwh2]

KennyR wrote:

I already told you. You can go look up the abortion figures yourself. Even with teenage pregancies, rape, and genetic diseases all factored together, the total number of abortions is far, far larger. This only points to one inescapable fact. Abortions ARE being used as a lifestyle choice, and this is NOT what they were legalised for. So much for the laws being tight.

No, it doesn't follow that because people are using abortions because they don't want children, that therefore they are using it as contraception, because contraception is not 100% effective.

So, source?

I can just imagine people thinking to themselves "oh I can't be bothered to take this pill or get him to use a condom, it's a lot less hassle to go through the ordeal of having an operation everytime".

[mdwh2]

Bobsonsirjonny wrote:
I'm not blind to the fact that accidents happen, but the trouble is people shag like rabbits without thinking of the potential consequences, and planning to prevent them. Some girls in my sisters school - and shes in year 10, still think that you can't get pregnant if "you do it standing up". The education is there, but the urban ledgends still prevail.

Yes, but these people don't do it because they know they can get an abortion - they're the sort who'll continue getting pregnant even if abortion was not an option (if they're not so stupid that they know of abortion as an option, then they'll surely know about contraception).

So banning abortion doesn't give us some world where everyone is suddenly more sensible, and where people use contraception (which would magically be 100% successful) - instead these people you speak of will still be shagging like rabbits without protection, and it'll just give us even more teenage mothers and unwanted children.