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Old 01-09-2003, 11:59 AM   #1
ple3003
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Default Amiga, Inc: Close That Open Hardware!

I read this article while browsing for news about the AmigaOne / Pegasos. osOpinion link...
Thought about it for a while. How many of you would really use a pirated version of AOS4? I know i wouldn't because i want to be supportive to the Amiga community. But i guess i do not represent the Amiga community, as i just recently bought a Peg. (ATTENTION everyone, NOT trying to light the flame wars again...) but does that really matter, just as other POP owners might wanna use AOS4 on their PPC-Boards...
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Old 01-09-2003, 12:16 PM   #2
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Default Re: Amiga, Inc: Close That Open Hardware!

yep the article makes sense..I wouldnt pirate OS4 either.
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Old 01-09-2003, 12:24 PM   #3
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Default Re: Amiga, Inc: Close That Open Hardware!

@ple3003

The Aone/Pegasos are not POP.

And what you said about Aos4 could be turned on its head & said about MOS.

MOS only runs on Pegasos & Amiga PPC cards

AOS4 only runs on Aone & Amiga PPC cards.

Until either run on Hardware that is not there own Both are as closed as each other.
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Old 01-09-2003, 12:35 PM   #4
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Default Re: Amiga, Inc: Close That Open Hardware!

The ways of Amiga inc. are truly strange.

I suppose they must have a bigger purpose, but what it is is difficult to understand (for me, anyway).

Sincerely,

-Kenneth Straarup.
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Old 01-09-2003, 12:37 PM   #5
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Default Re: Amiga, Inc: Close That Open Hardware!

That article is serious flamebait. It's like going into comp.sys.amiga.advocacy and asking "what makes the Amiga so special".

It may be a sucky idea to some people that dongle'izing the A1 hardware so that OS4 won't run on non-official Amiga hardware, but at the end of the day, Apple made the same kind of decision (stopping the Mac clone market), which may have been for better or worse for it. Yes, it would be more convenient for consumers to have a greater choice, but [generally, heh :-)] business produce products to make money.
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Old 01-09-2003, 12:37 PM   #6
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Default Re: Amiga, Inc: Close That Open Hardware!

@alkemyst
You got me there...

But i think you understand my arguments thoug.
Of course i want MOS to run on A1 bords as well.
Did you by the way check out the barbie ppc-board?
If not - Barbie POP
Dual Gigabit LAN, IDE-RAID and all of that! like it :-D
The downside is probably no MOS/AOS4 to go with it. doh!
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Old 01-09-2003, 12:43 PM   #7
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Default Re: Amiga, Inc: Close That Open Hardware!

Another thing - the Amiga community [generally] have got used to the idea of supporting companies/products by paying for them, but would the Amiga community have had this opinion if Commodore had continued success to the present day?

Helping a company whose products you like survive, because you know they need all the money they can get is one thing. Helping a company who haven't had those kinds of problems so badly with your money isn't such a high priority though, is it?

NB: I would pay for Amiga software if I used it for >30 days and liked it. Which I have done :-)
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Old 01-09-2003, 12:47 PM   #8
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Default Re: Amiga, Inc: Close That Open Hardware!

People keep on about the OS4 dongle, but when you think about it, even without the "dongle code" OS4 is still tied to certain hardware. How? Drivers.

When you think about it, the only reason Windows appears to be able to run on any X86 board is because Windows has basic drivers for most motherboard hardware, ether by themselfes or supplied by the H/W manufacture.

Unless someone makes a board that is identical in everyway to Eytech's AmigaONE, OS4 still wouldn't run on it. Unless either they make the drivers or Hyperion do.

I am not saying the dongle is a good idea or a bad one (although I do think companies do have a right to protect their time and effort), but given the very few PPC mobos around at the moment (that average Joe can buy) it is hardly worth worrying about. And as someone said, Apple seem to be doing resonable well in a closed h/w market, why can't we too? Time will tell. ;-)
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Old 01-09-2003, 12:50 PM   #9
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Default Re: Amiga, Inc: Close That Open Hardware!

Yeah, well, I'm sure most of us wouldn't pirate any Amiga software at all, yet to say it doesn't happen would be naive.

- Mike
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Old 01-09-2003, 01:09 PM   #10
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Default Re: Amiga, Inc: Close That Open Hardware!

@Alke - myst

You fail to mention however that A - Inc's dongle
is primarily what prevents OS4 from operating on the
Pegasos, and they are the ones forcing a license. It's not
exactly an even comparison, but I do understand your
reasoning.

The drivers wouldn't be as much of an issue, IMO.
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Old 01-09-2003, 01:24 PM   #11
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Default Re: Amiga, Inc: Close That Open Hardware!

I think some people are mixing things:

1-.The AmigaOne isn`t closed at all,hence you can run linux on it.
Also you can buy one without OS4,on wich you can run whatever you
want as long as it is supported.
2-.The "dongled one "really is the OS4,that you cannot run if you not
buys one AmigaOne,unless you buy another specific version like Cyberstorm one.
if you want to run OS4 then you need a cyberstorm Amiga or AmigaOne PPC board;
(maybe a pegasos/other ppc boards in the future).That is you Buy OS4 with AmigaOne,
not AmigaOne with OS4.
my point of view.
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Old 01-09-2003, 02:08 PM   #12
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Default Re: Amiga, Inc: Close That Open Hardware!

@ D

You fail to see that its not just what you see.

As MOS does not run on the Aone yet either.

The primarily reason is Genesi.

so for Aos4 not running on Pegasos its the license.

For MOS not running on Aone its Genesi.

Different methods same out come.
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Old 01-09-2003, 02:22 PM   #13
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Default Re: Amiga, Inc: Close That Open Hardware!

i (we) cant wait for os4!!!

pros to buying and not stealing:

1.you support the developer and encourage future effort

2.registered users recieve cheap/free upgrades/date

3.meddled-with software becomes burdened unstable unreliable (especially ignorant/amature cracks)

these are only the selfish reasons- all besides the fact that it is wrong and appropriately punishable by law
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Old 01-09-2003, 02:34 PM   #14
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Default Re: Amiga, Inc: Close That Open Hardware!

MOS/Genesi aside... if AOS where released to run on any POP based boards... it'd run on Barbie and the Pegasos... and we'd have more choices 'US" the consumers would... wich would be better... I would buy a Barbie or a Pegasos and use that with AOS4..and be happy... as is I'll stick to MOS on the Pegasos.. they totally lost customers who dont want to buy the A1... like me...I dont want the A1 to me it looks shoddy (my opinon) and I dont want to spend good money on a shoddy board I could get cheaper in exactly the same form without their rom... hopefully MOS will make its way onto barbie and we will have even more hardware (we bieng the MOS users)..

if/when later incarnations of the AmigaOne come out that look (in my opinon) comparable to barbie/pegasos then I'll get one. and run AOS4...
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Old 01-09-2003, 03:12 PM   #15
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Default Re: Amiga, Inc: Close That Open Hardware!

There is NO POP board to buy for home use.

So it dont matter if its MOS or Aos4.

None will run on just any mobo with out drivers & new Hal.

There is no standard PPC platform yet.

This not PC land where a standard has been set.

HO & why is it always Genesi/MOS aside with you.
Maybe cos you bought a Pegasos/MOS.
They can do what they want cos you bought from them.

But Aos4 has to go by your rules.

You dont ask for MOS to run on all PPC mobo's
You dont ask for MOSx86.

But you ask the other side Aos4 to take all the risk.

If Aos4 fails by talking all the risks at least you got MOS to fall back on.
You dont want MOS that you bought to take a risk.

& how many times have you been told this Mips_Proc.
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Old 01-09-2003, 03:16 PM   #16
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Default Re: Amiga, Inc: Close That Open Hardware!

Woohey, back online after the holidays, and the same old same old is still being thrown around!

Quote:
mikeymike wrote:
That article is serious flamebait. It's like going into comp.sys.amiga.advocacy and asking "what makes the Amiga so special".
You mean "I disagree with that article", right?

Quote:
It may be a sucky idea to some people that dongle'izing the A1 hardware so that OS4 won't run on non-official Amiga hardware, but at the end of the day, Apple made the same kind of decision (stopping the Mac clone market), which may have been for better or worse for it. Yes, it would be more convenient for consumers to have a greater choice, but [generally, heh :-)] business produce products to make money.
Not the old "MacOS only runs on Macs" again, please!

The Apple situation is totally different from this. Apple is essentially a hardware company. They make a living on selling computers. However sucky it might be for consumers who are only interested in MacOS, it is quite understandable and makes sense business-wise for Apple to prohibit MacOS from running anywhere else than on Apple Macs.

For some strange reason somebody brought up MorphOS and the Pegasos. Even though Genesi/Thendic/whatever several times have stated that they want MorphOS on more hardware than the Pegasos, they're still similar to Apple in this respect. They make and sell their own hardware and OS.

Amiga, Inc. is not a hardware company. AmigaOS depends on availability of and compatibility with third party hardware. Restricting what hardware "their" product, AmigaOS, will run on and from whom AmigaOS customers are allowed to buy that hardware does NOT make sense business-wise. It's painfully counterproductive and it's limiting and marginalising the AmigaOS product.
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Old 01-09-2003, 03:21 PM   #17
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Default Re: Amiga, Inc: Close That Open Hardware!

@Seehund
How many Business have you run .
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Old 01-09-2003, 03:30 PM   #18
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Default Re: Amiga, Inc: Close That Open Hardware!

Quote:
MOS/Genesi aside... if AOS where released to run on any POP based boards... it'd run on Barbie and the Pegasos... and we'd have more choices 'US" the consumers would...
Yes. I am all about choice. I do not want to be forced to buy from 1 vendor. POP for all PPC OS's is the smartest way to go IMO. I buy 1 machine and run 3 or more OS's, OS4, Linux, OS X, BeOS and maybe Morph. I like variety, tinker with one, get a little board switch and tinker with another.
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Old 01-09-2003, 03:45 PM   #19
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Default Re: Amiga, Inc: Close That Open Hardware!

Quote:
jumpship wrote:
People keep on about the OS4 dongle, but when you think about it, even without the "dongle code" OS4 is still tied to certain hardware. How? Drivers.
Well, of course! That's pretty damn self-evident, no?

Where did you see people objecting to software not automagically running on any hardware you can throw at it?

The licensing/dongling/bundling requirement does however not have anything to do with TECHNICAL reasons. It's an additional restriction on top of the valid technical reasons, and it helps preventing the OS to be ported to more hardware in the first place.

Quote:
When you think about it, the only reason Windows appears to be able to run on any X86 board is because Windows has basic drivers for most motherboard hardware, ether by themselfes or supplied by the H/W manufacture.
But who's arguing for AmigaOS to run on "any" PPC board?
I'm arguing against imposing additional restrictions that are technically irrelevant, but yet will stop technical issues from even being considered.

Quote:
Unless someone makes a board that is identical in everyway to Eytech's AmigaONE, OS4 still wouldn't run on it. Unless either they make the drivers or Hyperion do.
Huh? It's not like Eyetech is or ever has been the only distributor of Teron boards.

Then again it doesn't matter if the driver/HAL writing would only take 5 minutes by one single guy. Unless the hardware is sold licensed, bundled and dongled by a licensed vendor, AmigaOS will never run on it. Not legally and payed for, anyway, only pirates would benefit from this.

To take the specific Teron/"AmigaOne" example, I can currently buy a Teron board from Eyetech, Terra Soft, Inguard or Mai themselves. Just where is the commercial benefit for AmigaOS, AI and Hyperion in only allowing AmigaOS to be sold bundled with Teron boards from Eyetech? It's bad for AmigaOS, it's bad for AI (unless they're making HUGE money on selling hardware licenses...), it's bad for Hyperion and it's bad for the consumers.

Quote:
I am not saying the dongle is a good idea or a bad one (although I do think companies do have a right to protect their time and effort), but given the very few PPC mobos around at the moment (that average Joe can buy) it is hardly worth worrying about. And as someone said, Apple seem to be doing resonable well in a closed h/w market, why can't we too? Time will tell. ;-)
Amiga, Inc. and Hyperion are not "protecing their time and efforts" by this. They just made the sales and market penetration of "all future versions of AmigaOS" dependent on simultaneous sales of licensed hardware. The only thing that's protected is the marketshare of one third party hardware distributor, and that's probably only in the short run. When the few faithful have bought their dongled Teron boards via this distributor, then what?

And again, any comparison of AI/Hyperion with Apple in this respect is irrelevant.

There are no more Amigas, I don't want a new Amiga (unless it's cheaper and better than what everyone else on the consumer hardware market can come up with, although this won't/can't happen, but even then I'd like options). I want to buy AmigaOS. Who sells me what hardware is none of the software producers' concern.
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Old 01-09-2003, 05:39 PM   #20
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Default Re: Amiga, Inc: Close That Open Hardware!

Quote:
Seehund wrote:
The licensing/dongling/bundling requirement does however not have anything to do with TECHNICAL reasons. It's an additional restriction on top of the valid technical reasons, and it helps preventing the OS to be ported to more hardware in the first place.
Despite that I have disputed this argument of yours at several occasions, you keep repeating it like a mantra as if it would somehow make it happen. Once more, dispute this if you can:

1. Anyone can make any PPC hardware officially supported AmigaOS4 hardware by simply applying for a license and sharing a developer board and/or as extensive as possible hardware documentation. Hyperion will then create the neccessary hardware drivers, HAL and AmigaOS4 ROM. Compare that with Apple's approach if you like.

2. The ONLY thing preventing AmigaOS4 from running on basicly any PPC hardware is if Hyperion has for some reason no access to the hardware nor proper hardware documentation and therefore cannot make it happen even if they wanted to. An example of this is the Pegasos, they even applied for a developer board themselves but has still not as of today recieved one, AFAIK. You see, even though some of the chipsets are the same as the AmigaOne, the Pegasos obviously has a different design. For this reason Hyperion cannot and will not guarantee interoperability with their OS which is fully understandable, don't you think?

3. Hyperion are very much willing to support as much hardware as possible and is actually using this licensing scheme for preventing the OS to be restricted at a technical level. An example of this approach is the old PPC accelerator boards from Phase5; despite having no contact with the original manufacturers, very poor documentation, probable reduction of AmigaOne sales, very custom and different hardware design from the one of the AmigaOne, they will be supported by the AmigaOS4. How could this be if it was about restricting the AmigaOS4 to run on the AmigaOne from Eyetech only? Wouldn't this be impossible if the AmigaOS4 was made POP + ArticiaS chipset only?

4. The Microsoft approach of supporting the most common hardware standard and let the hardware manufacturers worry about the rest simply isn't feasible on the PPC market. There is no common PPC hardware standard. No, POP doesn't count as it will still require a common chipset standard. So, I'm sure MAI would be delighted if we made the AmigaOS4 dependant on their ArticiaS chipset but we would still have a very restricted OS. In fact, it would be even more restricted and give the us even less hardware options.

Now stop this blatant trolling of yours, Seehund. It's opposing your own cause regardless if you were to be right or not since this kind of trolling all over the web will only make users turn away from the platform rather than supporting you. I understand that it might be hard for you to admitt that you are wrong now since you've raised this witch hunt/poll against Amiga Inc. and all. But please, atleast tone down a bit rather than making such a fool out of yourself.
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