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Offline NidingTopic starter

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Questions regarding Apollo cards
« on: July 11, 2014, 10:38:59 AM »
Olafs3 made this post on Amiga One X1000 Xena/Xorro thread;

Quote
I think the new accellerators by apollo team with LAN and modern output are already available in near future, I also read from a new extension for classics that make it possible to use USB mouse and joysticks at classics (the card converts signals automatically). Additionally the Apollo team is also planning for a standalone system in future and there is also FPGA Arcade. So I think the 68k community will be quiet well supported :-), even without XORRO


Not wanting to derail that thread, I made a new thread here asking about information regarding the development of these cards.
I know I could just google and piece it together myself over a few hours, but sounds like users here got the info readily available :)
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: Questions regarding Apollo cards
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2014, 10:51:38 AM »
Quote from: Niding;768721
Olafs3 made this post on Amiga One X1000 Xena/Xorro thread;



Not wanting to derail that thread, I made a new thread here asking about information regarding the development of these cards.
I know I could just google and piece it together myself over a few hours, but sounds like users here got the info readily available :)


http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=67561&page=2

they are testing it right now
 

Offline NidingTopic starter

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Re: Questions regarding Apollo cards
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2014, 04:33:17 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;768724
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=67561&page=2

they are testing it right now


Cyclone 5?
Quote

For A500/ A1000/ A2000 / CDTV.

Card specs are:

* very fast 68K CPU
* 128 MB DDR3 Fast-memory
* SD-card usable/bootable as IDE-device
* Network interface
* RTG Graphics Card (chunky/Hicolor/truecolor) with HDMI out

The physial card design is done.
Testing / Driver development needs to be done.


Is this the correct card im copy pasting info about? If so, not any use to me since I got A1200.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: Questions regarding Apollo cards
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2014, 05:29:43 PM »
Quote from: Niding;768752
Cyclone 5?


Is this the correct card im copy pasting info about? If so, not any use to me since I got A1200.


it is planned for every amiga-model including A1200
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: Questions regarding Apollo cards
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2014, 12:29:06 AM »
think this thread is most appropriate to make up ones mind:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=74265&highlight=gunnar

in general i would rather wait what comes out of that instead to make bold claims in advance, the conception though is very reasonable imho.
 

Offline wrath of khan

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Re: Questions regarding Apollo cards
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2014, 12:47:16 AM »
Quote from: wawrzon;768765
think this thread is most appropriate to make up ones mind:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=74265&highlight=gunnar

in general i would rather wait what comes out of that instead to make bold claims in advance, the conception though is very reasonable imho.

Yup! If it happens I will buy one, or two. I have an a500 and an a1200. Fingers crossed.

On another note; Marcel verdassdonk is working on a new chipset, albeit a hobby project, its aiming to be an evolution of the ecs/ocs amigas. If finished could this in theory be added to Gunnars proposed standalone system, I wonder.
 

Offline NidingTopic starter

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Re: Questions regarding Apollo cards
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2014, 01:18:37 AM »
Thanks for the link wawrzon :)

Too bad Gunnar got shot down by a Moderator with an attitude.

From what I read TCD posted passive agressive, with Gunnar making one comment in the same vein resulting in a temp ban.

But the specs was quite impressive and Im defintly going to follow the progress.
Gunnar is correct in the assumption that some (many?) old amigans enjoy having actual hardware over emulator. That holds true for me atleast and I dont mind paying a few quid for it.

Been upgrading my A1200, and something that would speed it up to the extent possible with this card would be bought instantly if priced somewhat reasonably (in amiga terms :) )
 

Offline matthey

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Re: Questions regarding Apollo cards
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2014, 01:27:09 AM »
Quote from: wrath of khan;768767

On another note; Marcel verdassdonk is working on a new chipset, albeit a hobby project, its aiming to be an evolution of the ecs/ocs amigas. If finished could this in theory be added to Gunnars proposed standalone system, I wonder.


There are several Amiga chipsets available or to become available which includes the MiniMig ECS, Marcel's ECS, SAGA (Natami) and fpgaArcade AGA (currently unreleased but license requires release). Most of the Apollo Team would like to see good AGA compatibility with a few enhancements. Unless Marcel adopts better AGA compatibility, it's unlikely that the project would use his chipset implementation, as is, although some ideas, register maps and enhancements would be considered for adoption. I would like to see a documented standard for enhancements beyond AGA which I believe is important to Marcel as well. The team will have to evaluate different chipsets and licenses. It already has an AGA compatible chipset.
 

Offline amigadave

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Re: Questions regarding Apollo cards
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2014, 03:06:05 AM »
I don't want to write anything that discourages Gunnar from continuing his work on the 68k softcore, or Apollo boards, but wasn't it Gunnar and his many claims about Natami that created the rift between the original Natami developer (sorry I can't remember his name), and Gunnar's team that were working on the 68k softcore and maybe other parts?

Maybe I am mistaken, but I thought there were one or two people on the Natami team posting to the forums who were always making claims about the fantastic performance the Natami would eventually have, in advance of their work being finished.  It seemed to me that these claims increased the pressure on the original Natami developer to expand the project beyond his original vision, which finally caused him to withdraw from, or shut down the project and to go work by himself on his ideas.  Of course I have no knowledge what went on behind the scenes, or what really led to the breakup of the Natami team, only the Natami forums that I would scan from time to time.

If it was not Gunnar, I apologize for my bad memory.  If it was Gunnar, no matter how brilliant he is at writing code, or designing hardware, I would strongly suggest that he waits until his product is actually selling to promote it with claims of fantastic performance increases.  

The Amiga community has been let down too many times to be receptive to that kind of promotion by anyone for any product, sad as that may be.  I still am open to anything happening in this community and believe that there are still many brilliant minds working on Amiga related projects.  Unfortunately, there are a few who have more negative attitudes, and they post often to many different forum sites.
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)
 

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Re: Questions regarding Apollo cards
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2014, 03:27:11 AM »
Quote from: amigadave;768773
I don't want to write anything that discourages Gunnar from continuing his work on the 68k softcore, or Apollo boards, but wasn't it Gunnar and his many claims about Natami that created the rift between the original Natami developer (sorry I can't remember his name), and Gunnar's team that were working on the 68k softcore and maybe other parts?
Thomas Hirsch (not me) is the technical expert behind the Natami FPGA chipset core.  
Quote from: amigadave;768773
Maybe I am mistaken, but I thought there were one or two people on the Natami team posting to the forums who were always making claims about the fantastic performance the Natami would eventually have, in advance of their work being finished.

The Natami (as such) exists, a prototype board is on my rack. The CPU is a plain 68060 at 50Mhz, thus no "phantastic performance" CPU wise. The chipset is an incomplete emulation of the Amiga chipset which offers many features of AGA, though not all. Performance is nice, it can certainly offer as far as the graphics is concerned better performance than the original (1280x1024 at 256 colors is not an issue, a video driver for that exists).

The problem is that Thomas never really completed it. The blitter is incomplete (no line drawer), and it and the rest of the chipset do not operate at their full capacity, e.g. there is no full pipelining of the chipset as it should be, and hence it is a lot slower than it could be.

It is a typical 80/20 problem that shows here: 80% of the features cost 20% of the type, and the remaining 20% still missing would require an 80% investment. Whenever you believe (with a complex project like this) that you are *almost done*, you most certainly are not. All the complicated tiny problems are just ahead of you, and will require a tremedous investment of time to get fixed.

Why Gunnar and Thomas broke up I do not know, sorry, I can only suspect.
 

Offline matthey

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Re: Questions regarding Apollo cards
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2014, 03:55:03 AM »
Quote from: amigadave;768773
I don't want to write anything that discourages Gunnar from continuing his work on the 68k softcore, or Apollo boards, but wasn't it Gunnar and his many claims about Natami that created the rift between the original Natami developer (sorry I can't remember his name), and Gunnar's team that were working on the 68k softcore and maybe other parts?


Thomas Hirsch is the Natami creator. I believe you are correct that there was friction between Thomas and Gunnar. They had different philosophies of how Natami should evolve. They have very different personalities. I believe there was also problems with the hardware design and Thomas may have had doubts about financing. The problems were not all Gunnar's fault even though he gets blamed. It is Gunnar's fault that the Apollo Team persisted in creating a 68k fpga CPU. Gunnar and Thomas are still talking so don't be surprised if there is some cooperation yet.

Quote from: amigadave;768773

Maybe I am mistaken, but I thought there were one or two people on the Natami team posting to the forums who were always making claims about the fantastic performance the Natami would eventually have, in advance of their work being finished.  It seemed to me that these claims increased the pressure on the original Natami developer to expand the project beyond his original vision, which finally caused him to withdraw from, or shut down the project and to go work by himself on his ideas.  Of course I have no knowledge what went on behind the scenes, or what really led to the breakup of the Natami team, only the Natami forums that I would scan from time to time.


The Natami would have been awesome if it had been produced and the problems worked out. Maybe the fpgaArcade can come close in performance and functionality but the Natami could have been ready much sooner. It is time consuming to prepare projects like this. Thomas was working at his pace perfecting everything he wanted while Gunnar was trying to push the project forward when he could have been more focused on the CPU.

Quote from: amigadave;768773

If it was not Gunnar, I apologize for my bad memory.  If it was Gunnar, no matter how brilliant he is at writing code, or designing hardware, I would strongly suggest that he waits until his product is actually selling to promote it with claims of fantastic performance increases.  

The Amiga community has been let down too many times to be receptive to that kind of promotion by anyone for any product, sad as that may be.  I still am open to anything happening in this community and believe that there are still many brilliant minds working on Amiga related projects.  Unfortunately, there are a few who have more negative attitudes, and they post often to many different forum sites.


The Amiga community is a bit jaded from all the years of vaporware. Most have learned not to get too excited until there is something for sale. I hope they treat this project the same and maybe it will turn out to be like Christmas this time ;).
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: Questions regarding Apollo cards
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2014, 09:48:19 AM »
Quote from: amigadave;768773
If it was not Gunnar, I apologize for my bad memory.  If it was Gunnar, no matter how brilliant he is at writing code, or designing hardware, I would strongly suggest that he waits until his product is actually selling to promote it with claims of fantastic performance increases.  

no.
the development should be communicated. because the journey is the reward. but not in form of promises, blogs, teasers, announcements and such but hard development facts for the community to observe, criticize and discuss, and where possible to support and help with.

ideally the progress can be observed in an open source environment, where one may follow discussion and every single commit to repository, download nightlies and test them on his own or even build and patch the software at home.

since this seems to be a closed source project, i dont particularly know how to involve the audience. but staying in a closed is definitely not the way, since people will anyway hope there is something going on "behind the scenes" even if the project was dead like it was in many cases. therefore i respect such a choice, but dont think its the best one.
 

Offline NidingTopic starter

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Re: Questions regarding Apollo cards
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2014, 09:56:35 AM »
Quote from: wawrzon;768794
no.
the development should be communicated. because the journey is the reward. but not in form of promises, blogs, teasers, announcements and such but hard development facts for the community to observe, criticize and discuss, and where possible to support and help with.

ideally the progress can be observed in an open source environment, where one may follow discussion and every single commit to repository, download nightlies and test them on his own or even build and patch the software at home.

since this seems to be a closed source project, i dont particularly know how to involve the audience. but staying in a closed is definitely not the way, since people will anyway hope there is something going on "behind the scenes" even if the project was dead like it was in many cases. therefore i respect such a choice, but dont think its the best one.

I wholeheartly agree wawrzon.

I do understand amigadaves concerns with regards to releasing information before the product is done.
But lets face it, a developer on any of the "amiga" platforms have to have a thick skin and the ability to filter out the useful feedback from the noise that always comes from forumposters.

As wawrzon said, getting feedback, tips and help during the process could be a motivator and help accelerate the prosess. On Amigans.net for example software development is discussed as it goes along and it seems to be quite helpful for the developer(s).

Not that I actually know much about it since im code illiterate. ;)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2014, 04:18:59 PM by Niding »
 

Offline Lord Aga

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Re: Questions regarding Apollo cards
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2014, 10:44:22 AM »
A new 060 Amiga would be just a temporary thing anyway. FPGA is the way to go. Unless we could bake ASICS. And we can't. So Apollo team's idea about ready available FPGA boards is the most practical solution for the foreseeable future.
Glory to the loud-mouthed Scotsman !
 

Offline SamuraiCrow

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Questions regarding Apollo cards
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2014, 04:24:25 PM »
Marcel's XCS chipset is unlikely to implement AGA compatibility but leaves the registers altered from ECS to AGA unused so future cores can add AGA compatibility.

Personally I think his IOMMU idea is a waste of time and effort, not to mention space on the FPGA.  Since the Apollo core is unlikely to implement a 68030 compatible MMU, the point of it is utterly lost.