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Offline LurchTopic starter

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Classic VS NG
« on: April 07, 2014, 10:12:26 AM »
Well after modding the hell out of my A1200, I'm thinking it might be time to sell up and purchase an NG.

Getting all the hardware/software mods to work together was and still is enjoyable, yet frustrating task.

With the slow updates on mediator drivers for both the Voodoo 5 and Radeon 9200 it's really holding AmigaOS 3.9 back. Rattes updated Radeon driver was looking like the answer but Elbox trampled that.

Also getting any information/response from Elbox is impossible. Which adds to my frustration when spending quite a bit on their products.

Reliability is another factor, with all those different hacks/patches running it feels unstable now and then. The most annoying part is getting RTG/AGA switching working with WHDLoad, which wouldn't really be a problem with an NG. I've given up on this and run in AGA most of the time, although I don't get the pretty 1920x1080 with AFA OS/Zune desktop.

I have Quake/Quake 2 running great using Warp3D/MiniGL at 640x480. However Quake2 can be flaky and I get the odd software fault and it wont load. Another frustration.

Duke Nukem is fairly smooth except for a slight pause when some sounds load, but this would be resolved with using a FastATA, however it doesn't fit with the Indivision AGA MK2 and Mediator. :-/

Browsing is very useable, Ibrowse is fantastic. Although due to it's out dated browser engine a few websites don't display correctly. NetSurf is fantastic though, can feel slower than Ibrowse though but I think this is because it loads the entire page in one hit instead of loading parts of the page.

Flash, even with the Ibrowse plugin is a no go. Java stuff seems to timeout most of the time so I turned this off.  

iGame/WHDLoad works really well (once you are running an AGA workbench) and the speed at what games load at is amazing. Forget floppy disks! :-)

99% of the demo's work great, no issues.

PPC stuff, I maybe tempted to purchase a PPC card for the A1200 but price wise I'd be better off buying an NG. The amount of money would buy me a nice setup, unless I can find someone throwing a card out (yeah right).

As a day to day machine, almost possible. The A1200 does an okay job :-)

Anyway I think I've accomplished (95% anyway) what I set out to do, I'll probably regret selling it. You always get that doubt with Amiga hardware, especially putting so much time into it. You become attached.

I'll go back to pondering it :-)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 10:14:50 AM by Lurch »
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Offline wawrzon

Re: Classic VS NG
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2014, 10:53:00 AM »
>classic

there is no "classic", just "amiga" ;)

>Well after modding the hell out of my A1200, I'm thinking it might be time to sell up

isnt it fun enough just using it?

>Also getting any information/response from Elbox is impossible.

is it these days? they were actually rather helpful every time i called them, but maybe its just me and its anyway a miracle they still exist at all.

> The most annoying part is getting RTG/AGA switching working with WHDLoad, which wouldn't really be a problem with an NG. I've given up on this and run in AGA most of the time, although I don't get the pretty 1920x1080 with AFA OS/Zune desktop.

problem solved because an ng wouldnt have aga at all? i suppose from the perspective of emulation winuae would be even more comfortable a solution, and a free one. personally ive never cared so much for aga rtg switch as i dont see it as so much hassle to switch inputs on the screen.

>Flash, even with the Ibrowse plugin is a no go. Java stuff

flash will stay no go anyway also on ng, same for java i guess and javascript may today be too heavy fro whatever amigalike except maybe aros x86

all in all i advise against getting ppc accel for amiga. you may check aros distributions with built in emulation. thats probably the simplest thing, but i cant tell as i am not using it. getting a ppc machine mos is probably least risky and still cheap, but thats common knowledge.
 

Offline itix

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Re: Classic VS NG
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2014, 11:08:35 AM »
Quote from: Lurch;762104
Reliability is another factor, with all those different hacks/patches running it feels unstable now and then. The most annoying part is getting RTG/AGA switching working with WHDLoad, which wouldn't really be a problem with an NG.

On NG you have to maintain alternate AmigaOS setup in UAE to run AGA games. It can be floppy based if you prefer or use WHDLoad/RTG like on your old Amiga.

@wawrzon
Quote
flash will stay no go anyway also on ng, same for java i guess and javascript may today be too heavy fro whatever amigalike except maybe aros x86

PPC is certainly fast enough to run most Javascript sites.
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Offline danwood

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Re: Classic VS NG
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2014, 11:24:22 AM »
Personally I'd keep your A1200, trust me, you'll miss it when it's gone - plus the classic hardware only keeps increasing in value over the years.

I think it depends what you use your machine for, and in your case I think you would benefit from an "NG" system if you spend a lot of time in the OS, browsing etc.  

Your requirements sounds similar to mine, so do what I did... keep your A1200 for old-skool games, demos, nostalgia and enjoying pushing the old hardware to the limits.  I have a MAS Player to play MP3, ACA030 accelerator with 64mb of RAM, 160 GB hard disk, Ethernet NIC, Indivision AGA II - it really is the machine I always dreamed of when I was a kid and I get a kick out of using it.

Keep the 1200 but also buy a Mac Mini G4 or a PowerMac G4 (they can be had for next to nothing) and run MorphOS for your NG needs, it's like using a high-end Amiga with graphics card, fast processor, heaps of RAM, you can watch videos, surf the web and the OS is very fast and fluid.  You can get a MorphOS setup for under  €200 easy.
 

Offline ElPolloDiabl

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Re: Classic VS NG
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2014, 11:51:40 AM »
Dual boot AROS. Classic could not handle internet anything. NG must be great as a hobby, but as a primary OS it could not do much.
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Offline NovaCoder

Re: Classic VS NG
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2014, 12:16:08 PM »
Quote from: Lurch;762104
Well after modding the hell out of my A1200, I'm thinking it might be time to sell up and purchase an NG.

Getting all the hardware/software mods to work together was and still is enjoyable, yet frustrating task.


Well you've certainty taken the Classic a lot further than I've ever had the energy to do ;)

The 030 A1200 can of course run 97% of Classic games, an 060 will get you to 99% and PPC will only get you that last 1%....does that give a good perspective on things ;)  

If you really want to have RTG then a big boxer is a better bet than going the A1200 to Tower + Mediator (IMHO).

At this point I wouldn't recommend to anybody that they upgrade a Classic to PPC (OS4 Classic want-to-be-users included!), if you really want to try an NG 'Amiga' then maybe have a look at MorphOS or AROS.

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Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: Classic VS NG
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2014, 12:27:04 PM »
If you want to use your Amiga for a day-to-day desktop replacement, then go NG.  If you just want to tinker and play old software, than keep what you've got.  I expect this post to devolve into a flame war in 3... 2... 1...
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Offline danwood

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Re: Classic VS NG
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2014, 12:34:26 PM »
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;762112
I expect this post to devolve into a flame war in 3... 2... 1...

Can't see why, if he gets a cheap MorphOS machine or runs AROS on his PC there should be no need to sell up the A1200 setup, MOS/AROS machines can be had for pennies.   Best of both worlds then.

I'd probably sell the PCI bus and graphics cards and put the A1200 back to AGA and use MorphOS on a PPC Mac for the RTG/NG experience.  The cash he gets for those will easy cover a PPC Mac and MOS licence with plenty left over.
 

Offline Duce

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Re: Classic VS NG
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2014, 02:00:41 PM »
I'd be very cautious and recommend you weigh your use case before taking anyones advice that any NG Amiga can be a day to day, desktop replacement for a more mainstream machine like a Windows, Linux or Mac box.

I love my NG systems, but the idea that I could use them to do my day to day business on them is laughable.  They are great machines for what they are, but the truth is I couldn't even get my daily work tickets off GDocs on either MOS or my OS4 machine.  The browsers puke too much.

Honestly, and I know how much people hate the emulation route - it's hard to go wrong with an Amithlon or even dedicated UAE box if you are intent on running older software.  I've got both an Amithlon box and a dedicated UAE machine (XP base, boots right into WB 3.1, never even see Windows) and most people would be hard pressed to even recognize they are emulated machines if they were parked in front of them if an old Miggy KB and mouse were there.
 

Offline klx300r

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Re: Classic VS NG
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2014, 03:22:41 PM »
I would try either Aeros or Arix (when it's here) since you could use any old PC you have and have a NG experience since they'll be suing Linux drivers as their backbone.  If you have an old Apple PC around then you can try out MorphOS as I beleive they have a try out period before registering.  If you want to try out AmigaOS4.x then you can get a used Sam440 system for a good price nowadays since many users are upgrading to Sam460 & X1000 and good thing is if you choose to upgrade you will always find a buyer for your 440.

I don't recommend selling your classic gear yet until you feel satisfied with the NG experience. Personally I'm a hardware tinkerer guy and glad I kept my classic stuff now that i have more space in my man cave since it always costs you more to re-purchase stuff you sold in the past.
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Offline Boot_WB

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Re: Classic VS NG
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2014, 03:36:47 PM »
Quote from: Duce;762118
I'd be very cautious and recommend you weigh your use case before taking anyones advice that any NG Amiga can be a day to day, desktop replacement for a more mainstream machine like a Windows, Linux or Mac box.


I completely agree. However if your usage is fulfilled by the software, hardware and horsepower available then it can be a very enjoyable route to go.

Quote
I love my NG systems, but the idea that I could use them to do my day to day business on them is laughable.  They are great machines for what they are, but the truth is I couldn't even get my daily work tickets off GDocs on either MOS or my OS4 machine.  The browsers puke too much.


I do have occasional problems with GDocs, but I've been more impressed by the availability and stability of MS Web apps (aside from the occasional menu bar malfunction when it first loads).

Quote
Honestly, and I know how much people hate the emulation route - it's hard to go wrong with an Amithlon or even dedicated UAE box if you are intent on running older software.  I've got both an Amithlon box and a dedicated UAE machine (XP base, boots right into WB 3.1, never even see Windows) and most people would be hard pressed to even recognize they are emulated machines if they were parked in front of them if an old Miggy KB and mouse were there.


I personally don't hate emulation, in fact I enjoy emulation for old games - I just wouldn't want to go back to setting up and maintaining an OS3.9 setup again, even under emulation.
I've got way too comfortable with the things NG (MorphOS in my case) provides out of the box, or with a simple one-click installation with no missing dependencies.
A multi-booting MorphOS/OSX/Linux powerbook/macmini covers all my likely software needs, although I can't remember the last time I booted OSX or Linux - probably some time in January when I was doing my accounts looking for old spreadsheets and invoices.

Having said that, if you enjoy tinkering with the older hardware (and setting up your 'dream amiga' system that you longed for as a teen but could never afford), then keep onto your classic, or upgrade to something more stable (A4KT).
You might also find that you feel like you don't have much left to do with a stable, powerful system that's already got pci, rtg, usb, tcp/ip built-in.

Regarding Amiga always going up in value... so far it has quite steadily increased in value over the last decade or so (unless/until that day when you press the switch and nothing happens. :) )
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Offline LurchTopic starter

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Re: Classic VS NG
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2014, 08:26:12 AM »
Went further than I was wanting to go but it just snow balls, first the 060, then the mediator... on and on :-)

I do enjoy using it and it's looking good in it's new home.

@danwood - Well said, I have an old G4 tower that had MorphOS on it. Tried it many years ago. Not sure if I liked it or not. Looking at an Apple machine might have been it.

Was going to put it in another case, but now the G5 is supported I may look at that.  A mac mini is a nice size, always wanted a cube though. A shame MorphOS doesn't support it.

@Novacoda - You know you're in trouble when you try to update your signature with all the mods and it takes up a couple of paragraphs :-) I don't think I'd ever buy a PPC card, for the price it's not really worth it. If it was a similar price to the 060 maybe. Can get a okay AmigaNG setup for less :-)

@itix - Possible to copy over an existing setup from my current A1200 and run it I guess? That would mean I wouldn't have to make too many changes.

@klx300r - Yeah this would be my second time purchasing/selling classic hardware. It has been more expensive this time round but I didn't take the modding as far as I have this time round.

@Oldsmobile_Mike - Hoping there isn't a flame war, some good healthy discussion would make a nice change.

After reading through I'll probably keep my A1200. I may look at a mac mini again, or a cheap G5. Although the G5 is massive in size :-/

Speed wise I guess the mac mini would be okay?
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Offline LurchTopic starter

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Re: Classic VS NG
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2014, 08:30:33 AM »
So I had a look for a mac mini locally but can only find a 32MB version. I'm guessing the 64MB is rare?
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Offline utri007

Re: Classic VS NG
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2014, 09:51:32 AM »
About 68k web browsers

It is sad that there is no proper version of Netsurf for 68k Amigans  Chris has made a quite lot work to keep 68k version possible.

Current 68k version is based to framebuffer frontend wich is meant to be used for debuggin and no gui systems. I also havehigh doubs about using SDL to this.

What Netsurf team thinks about it is quite obivous, they don't accept it to here : http://www.netsurf-browser.org/downloads/

About speed : > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUrkzRAc5zs

It does display imges when loading and it is MUCH faster with Atari Falcon
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Offline itix

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Re: Classic VS NG
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2014, 10:23:56 AM »
Quote from: Lurch;762170

@itix - Possible to copy over an existing setup from my current A1200 and run it I guess? That would mean I wouldn't have to make too many changes.


You still have same issues maintaining dual AGA/RTG setup when trying to run old games and demos with WHDLoad. So in the end you ave nothing.

For gaming purposes and watching old demos it could be better idea strip down Amiga from RTG and make it AGA only setup. NG is better reserved to RTG stuff if you want that.

Quote

So I had a look for a mac mini locally but can only find a 32MB version. I'm guessing the 64MB is rare?


It is very rare. Only 500,000 units were built which is not many, really.
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