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Amiga.org Amiga computer related discussion Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion TD64 or NSD for new storage drivers?

Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion This forum is dedicated to the discussion and resolution of issues related to Classic and Next Generation Amiga hardware. Got a problem with a piece of hardware? Click to speak.

View Poll Results: Which "standard" for new storage drivers?
New Style Device (NSD) 7 30.43%
TrackDisk64 (TD64) 10 43.48%
Don't know or don't care 6 26.09%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-19-2013, 09:04 AM   #1
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Default TD64 or NSD for new storage drivers?

I've found a million posts on what the available options are and the drama that it caused, but nothing on what users actually want.

For a new storage device driver, which of the two give the best software compatibility and user experience?

TD64 is supported by Phase 5, DKB and GuruROMs, so being compatible to those is a pretty safe bet.

NSD is the OS3.5 and 3.9 standard.

So which one do you want?

Edit: I'm doing SCSI Direct regardless in addition to one of these.

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Old 02-19-2013, 09:12 AM   #2
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Default Re: TD64 or NSD for new storage drivers?

You are writing ur own drivers?
Then just write your driver twice. Once for NSD and once for TD64. Then you have covered everything, right?

Use the source, Luke
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:18 AM   #3
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Default Re: TD64 or NSD for new storage drivers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosLord View Post
You are writing ur own drivers?
Then just write your driver twice. Once for NSD and once for TD64. Then you have covered everything, right?

Use the source, Luke
Screw that, once plus scsi direct is plenty. It's not my fault that AT had "not invented here" syndrome.

Yes, I'm the first vote for TD64
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:39 AM   #4
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Default Re: TD64 or NSD for new storage drivers?

Which one has the most capabilities?
(I assume they are equal but who knows?)

Which one burns the least CPU power?

Which one requires the least amount of code?

Are they all compatible with any kickstart? Even KS 1.2?
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:51 AM   #5
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Default Re: TD64 or NSD for new storage drivers?

I don't think KS1.2 is an option with this hardware, 3.1 or higher would be pretty much expected.
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Old 02-19-2013, 10:10 AM   #6
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Default Re: TD64 or NSD for new storage drivers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heiroglyph View Post
So which one do you want?
This question is silly. The handling of both is equal, only the command codes are different. So it's next to no effort to support both.


Quote:
I've found a million posts on what the available options are and the drama that it caused, but nothing on what users actually want.
The users want that their file systems work with the driver, they don't care which technique is used internally. Some file systems use NSD, some use TD64. If you support both you make all users happy.
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Old 02-19-2013, 10:33 AM   #7
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Default Re: TD64 or NSD for new storage drivers?

@Heiroglyph

What is your driver called? What hardware is it for?
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:04 AM   #8
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Default Re: TD64 or NSD for new storage drivers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
This question is silly. The handling of both is equal, only the command codes are different. So it's next to no effort to support both.
I'm trying to get the developer CD that has the NSD docs on it now, I'm finding it hard to get information.

I thought that NSD had made it so that you couldn't support both. That the codes conflicted or something.
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:05 AM   #9
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Default Re: TD64 or NSD for new storage drivers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosLord View Post
@Heiroglyph

What is your driver called? What hardware is it for?
It's called vaporware for now

Just a small project, nothing to get excited about.
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:18 AM   #10
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Default Re: TD64 or NSD for new storage drivers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heiroglyph View Post
I'm trying to get the developer CD that has the NSD docs on it now, I'm finding it hard to get information.
I'm sure a torrent for the Dev CD will appear on the pirate bay in a few days.
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:52 AM   #11
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Cool Re: TD64 or NSD for new storage drivers?

You can get the Native Developer Kit from here:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http:...fek33SQ2_oFa0g
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:06 PM   #12
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Default Re: TD64 or NSD for new storage drivers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjhutch View Post
You can get the Native Developer Kit from here:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http:...fek33SQ2_oFa0g
I appreciate the link, but I already had that one.

The developer CD supposedly has more documentation. This doesn't mention NSD at all as far as I can see.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:06 PM   #13
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Default Re: TD64 or NSD for new storage drivers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heiroglyph View Post
I'm trying to get the developer CD that has the NSD docs on it now, I'm finding it hard to get information.

I thought that NSD had made it so that you couldn't support both. That the codes conflicted or something.
If you haven't read Ralf Babel's "Why NSD is broken as designed", you probably should:

http://babel.de/amiga.html#doc
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:21 PM   #14
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Default Re: TD64 or NSD for new storage drivers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heiroglyph View Post
I thought that NSD had made it so that you couldn't support both. That the codes conflicted or something.
No idea, but NSDPatch can patch TD64 devices to support NSD.
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Old 02-19-2013, 03:22 PM   #15
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Default Re: TD64 or NSD for new storage drivers?

<sigh> This is another example of how developer hostile AmigaOS has become.

After finding examples of software that does use NSD, I see they all reference devices/newstyle.h which doesn't exist in the 3.9NDK.

Why is it all secret and paid for these days? Assuming I can even buy a developer CD. The RTG lockdown from a 3rd party developer is stupid enough, but a 10+ year old public interface in the OS itself?

I may end up doing TD64 just because I can do it without paying to ship a hard to find CD from Europe or becoming a pirate.

This is why we can't have nice things.
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Old 02-19-2013, 04:24 PM   #16
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Default Re: TD64 or NSD for new storage drivers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heiroglyph View Post
Why is it all secret and paid for these days? Assuming I can even buy a developer CD. The RTG lockdown from a 3rd party developer is stupid enough, but a 10+ year old public interface in the OS itself?

I may end up doing TD64 just because I can do it without paying to ship a hard to find CD from Europe or becoming a pirate.
Don't get all upset. There's no money here for the pirate police to make money off of. Maybe a few politically correct immature types will complain but it looks like this material is copyright but freely redistributable. Go figure why the documentation is not in the 3.9 NDK.

http://www.heywheel.com/matthey/Amiga/NSD.lha
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Old 02-19-2013, 04:40 PM   #17
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Default Re: TD64 or NSD for new storage drivers?

I have the DEveloper CD V2.1 (made by Schatztruhe for Haage-Partner). In the DEvinfo section there are some docs about NSD device and also Trackdisk64. It is mainly consists of NSDPAtch, NSDQuery tool, Install and Readme.Guide. For TD64 there is just a readme file.

It is pretty much the same as this file on Aminet: disk/misc/NSDPatch43_20.lha.
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Old 02-19-2013, 04:41 PM   #18
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Default Re: TD64 or NSD for new storage drivers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by matthey View Post
Don't get all upset. There's no money here for the pirate police to make money off of. Maybe a few politically correct immature types will complain but it looks like this material is copyright but freely redistributable. Go figure why the documentation is not in the 3.9 NDK.

http://www.heywheel.com/matthey/Amiga/NSD.lha
Thanks.

It's just frustrating. A platform this old should be well documented and wide open, but I've hit brick walls for the last few years every time I want to work on anything hardware related.

It's like a concerted effort to prevent new hardware from being practical.

If it was my first stumble it wouldn't mean a thing, but it's so far beyond that, that it's a sensitive subject now.
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Old 02-19-2013, 06:39 PM   #19
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Default Re: TD64 or NSD for new storage drivers?

Just looking over the docs, I don't see what all the fuss was about and I don't see why a driver can't support both, which seemed to be implied in the arguments I've seen.

Like anything it could be improved, but it doesn't look like the end of the world that it was made out to be.

Yes, it sucks that people had to rewrite drivers after just having added support for TD64, but the standard itself isn't hideous. I do agree that AI should have just gone with the defacto standard that was already available though. That was a waste of everyone's time as far as I can see.

It looks like this poll is a moot point.

Thanks guys!
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Old 02-19-2013, 07:19 PM   #20
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Default Re: TD64 or NSD for new storage drivers?

Now I know why I like free open source stuff

Points to consider:
* Reliability - clearly defined API etc (trashed filesystem is bad)
* Compatibility
* Performance (CPU and kB/s)

Probably the documentation CD etc.. was created in a propietary setting. And when the financial trouble started there was the likely hood that a corporate buyout deal might happen etc. When things run out in the sand, everything got stuck in a big mess. Because I suspect that when Commodore was working you would had the info with a bit of cash (+NDA?) without any problems.

This is why systems with documentation in your physical possession is such a good idea.

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