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Old 01-28-2013, 02:16 PM   #41
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmigaClassicRule View Post
People need new technology and features in their website, business demand them to make things look professional and easier to develop.
But that's not the problem here. The problem isn't the things that Javascript is needed for, the problem is all the places it isn't necessary but gets used anyway. Modern web developers are so stuck on fetishizing glitz and flashy animation and such that they don't ever stop to think about whether it's necessary, and it usually isn't, or whether it impairs usability, which it often does, or whether there's a simpler alternative, which there usually is. (If I had a dollar for every time I've seen JS drop-down menus when CSS has been able to do that since forever, I'd be a significantly richer man.)

(The further irony is that all this often actually looks uglier, in a trashy disco drag-queen kind of way, than the simpler alternatives.)

Hell, we're even getting to the point where it's common practice to reimplement basic browser functionality like links and the back button in Javascript, often in ways that break the real in-browser implementation. That is Bad And Wrong. This is not a problem of old technology not keeping up with the requirements of real improvements in web design, it's a problem of bad design becoming the rule on the web.
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:38 PM   #42
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

While netsurf seems to be a good candidate what about OWB/Odyssey? I don't know how modular it is, but stripped down (JS & some other cpu demading things disabled) I could imagine it could work on higher spec'ed 68k machines.
Either AROS OWB or Odyssey could be good starting points for a stripped down OWB 68k version.
But probably netsurf is the better starting point as there is a working 68k build already.
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:15 PM   #43
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by wawrzon View Post
@chris:
sigh, apparently yet again the most dumb ungifted and uneducated noob has to give it a try and give up just after few stabs. ive lost count how many times ive already tried.

chris, just took a look at 2.9 source for starters.
Don't bother with 2.9. 3.0-dev is pretty stable at the moment and due for release in the next 2-3 months. The palette-mapped plotters aren't in 2.9 either.

Quote:
i would have to set up a new target, borrowing what is set for os4 at the beginning. something like m68k-amigaos should do i guess. i would have to override host detection as it looks like, i guess mingw would be the right choice, likely other settings would might need to be overridden as well. ive tried to consult arturs sources (http://aminet.net/comm/www/netsurf-m68k-sources.lha) but i see nothing that would help me in the makefiles. looks like hes using amidevcpp interface to build netsurf. id like to try to stay conform with the genuine makefiles.
I use Cygwin, mingw ought to work as well.

I would advise trying to build the toolchains used by the auto-builder. See this email: http://vlists.pepperfish.net/piperma...er/002983.html

There is a m68k-unknown-amigaos target set up in there already.

I've never tried building the toolchains. I keep meaning to as my OS4 builds have a weird issue that doesn't show up on the auto-built versions. However, these might get around the problems NovaCoder had.

You can then build the libraries (and NetSurf itself) using TARGET=amigaos3 as an argument to make.

It's worth reading this as well: http://wiki.netsurf-browser.org/Docu.../GettingCoding
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:28 PM   #44
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by wawrzon View Post
this is actually even more tempting, having that scrollbars are even almost not necessary except for really huge pages. couldnt you try to build it for 68k target commenting out whatever does not compile? this way we would at least exactly know what parts need work. this is everything i could ever do, rewriting offending parts is completely out of question in my case, but you being familiar with the particular build process and likely having everything necessary at hand are better off anyway. i guess it wouldnt take longer for you than posting in this thread.
Well, my 68k cross-compilation environment is pretty broken, as it's really an OS4 cross-compilation environment which is hacked to bits to force everything to cross-compile ppc-amigaos. So actually it'll take me a while to set one up that works properly.

Here's a build log from a while back:
http://vlists.pepperfish.net/piperma...ry/002306.html

Some of those errors won't appear now, because there's an os3support.h file which hides a load of them.
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:29 PM   #45
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Cool Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

Interesting thread, but to put it simply, "A 5 ounce sparrow cannot carry a 1 pound coconut."

Simpler, tighter and optimized code in the form of a quicker browser cannot handle the modern web page when the processor that runs it was designed over 20 years ago. Heck, ever thought of what a modern X86 processor would do with code that wasn't bloated with waste? Oops, the ghost of Linux past pops in the room.

Last edited by danbeaver; 01-28-2013 at 03:30 PM.. Reason: Stress
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Old 01-28-2013, 04:12 PM   #46
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

@danbeaver
does one need to postz it again, again, again, agai, and again to anyone to understand?

if you have a modern browser and a relatively simple css site, it will work, if you have modern browser and extremly heavy css site it will likely take time beyond patience. a simple java script will work, a heavy one will lock your system for ages. whatever worked up till now will work anyway. trust me i have tested aros-owb on my a4k a little, and come to a conclusion that it could be worth a try, but i dont see improving aros-owb as alternative to much better and up to date odyssey or simpler netsurf for that matter. please dont discuss it over and over.
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Old 01-28-2013, 04:16 PM   #47
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris View Post
Well, my 68k cross-compilation environment is pretty broken, as it's really an OS4 cross-compilation environment which is hacked to bits to force everything to cross-compile ppc-amigaos. So actually it'll take me a while to set one up that works properly.

Here's a build log from a while back:
http://vlists.pepperfish.net/piperma...ry/002306.html

Some of those errors won't appear now, because there's an os3support.h file which hides a load of them.
thanks, the log may be quite a hint, and also worth to look at the os3support.h. i see a lot of warnings. seems the source generally needs delinting for the gcc 4.5.x (is that the right word?. as i said i cannot substitute lacking functions, but maybe there is someone who may make up his mind a little upon that log.
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Old 01-28-2013, 04:27 PM   #48
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

good thing is i have 4.5.0 for m68k-amigaos and could perhaps prepare the build environment for someone who can do the actual work, perhaps but only perhaps, i could even build in the necessary casts to get rid of some warnings, but you would have to verify that, chris.
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Old 01-28-2013, 05:21 PM   #49
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

There's some code that won't be touched under OS3 even though it has to be compiled. I'll see if I can #ifdef __amigaos4__ those bits to get rid of the warnings (from memory - any section with CompositeTags() in it, and anti-aliased text printing)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wawrzon View Post
good thing is i have 4.5.0 for m68k-amigaos and could perhaps prepare the build environment for someone who can do the actual work, perhaps but only perhaps, i could even build in the necessary casts to get rid of some warnings, but you would have to verify that, chris.
Getting a working build environment would be half the battle.
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Old 01-28-2013, 05:55 PM   #50
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris View Post
There's some code that won't be touched under OS3 even though it has to be compiled. I'll see if I can #ifdef __amigaos4__ those bits to get rid of the warnings (from memory - any section with CompositeTags() in it, and anti-aliased text printing)
there is really a lot that lloks like such a candidate. for instance everything in theme.c, download.c, contex_menu.c to be examined. there is while lot of functions but a limited number of source files that need to be modified for starters.


Quote:
Getting a working build environment would be half the battle.
hmm. where did john mark bell got his m68k-amigaos gcc4.5.1 for btw? i have only 4.5.0 by bernd afair. otherwise i have whole lot of ready includes and libs, also for netsurf.
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:41 PM   #51
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

GCC/G++ v4.5.0 for cross-compiling from Cygwin can be found here:

http://amiga.sourceforge.net/phps/lo...gaos-cygwin.7z

Inside the archive are patches/instructions for compiling m68k-amigaos versions of GCC/G++.
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Old 01-29-2013, 03:39 AM   #52
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

i have this one.
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Old 01-29-2013, 05:03 AM   #53
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by wawrzon View Post
there is really a lot that lloks like such a candidate. for instance everything in theme.c, download.c, contex_menu.c to be examined. there is while lot of functions but a limited number of source files that need to be modified for starters.
I can't think of anything in download.c except the notification function. theme.c has 32-bit mouse pointers, which you're right can be #ifdef'd and disabled. context_menu.c uses popupmenu.class which can be disabled completely too (unless somebody fancies reworking it to use popupmenu.library on OS3).

Quote:
hmm. where did john mark bell got his m68k-amigaos gcc4.5.1 for btw? i have only 4.5.0 by bernd afair. otherwise i have whole lot of ready includes and libs, also for netsurf.
It's downloaded and built from source by the toolchain. It'll be an even newer version now!
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Old 01-29-2013, 01:35 PM   #54
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Smile Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

Wawrzon,

You can't run a "modern browser" on vintage hardware. If you can, show me an example.

Last edited by danbeaver; 01-29-2013 at 05:03 PM.. Reason: To err is human
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Old 01-29-2013, 01:46 PM   #55
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

http://postimage.org/image/rnfsdgjeb/

config: aros68k, a4k, 060/50, cv64, x-surf.

Last edited by wawrzon; 01-29-2013 at 01:49 PM..
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Old 01-29-2013, 02:46 PM   #56
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

@chris:

since i believe ill have to define new target first, im now just trying to build only netsurf without the libs. i should have the libs available for the 68k maybe not the latest version, but lets leave that for later. ive disabled all gfx formats for this now.
strangely after regular make i get:
/bin/sh: O2: command not found :
Code:
$ make TARGET=amiga
M.CONFIG: JPEG (libjpeg)        enabled       (NETSURF_USE_JPEG := YES)
M.CONFIG: JNG/MNG/PNG (libmng)  disabled      (NETSURF_USE_MNG := NO)
M.CONFIG: PDF export (haru)     disabled      (NETSURF_USE_HARU_PDF := NO)
M.CONFIG: glibc internal iconv  enabled       (NETSURF_USE_LIBICONV_PLUG := YES)

M.CONFIG: Sprite (librosprite)  disabled      (NETSURF_USE_ROSPRITE := NO)
M.CONFIG: BMP (libnsbmp)        disabled      (NETSURF_USE_BMP := NO)
M.CONFIG: GIF (libnsgif)        disabled      (NETSURF_USE_GIF := NO)
M.CONFIG: PNG (libpng)  disabled      (NETSURF_USE_PNG := NO)
M.CONFIG: NSSVG (libsvgtiny)    disabled      (NETSURF_USE_NSSVG := NO)
M.CONFIG: Amiga icon    enabled       (NETSURF_USE_AMIGA_ICON := YES)
M.CONFIG: DataTypes     enabled       (NETSURF_USE_AMIGA_DATATYPES := YES)
Package libxml-2.0 was not found in the pkg-config search path.
Perhaps you should add the directory containing `libxml-2.0.pc'
to the PKG_CONFIG_PATH environment variable
No package 'libxml-2.0' found
Package libcurl was not found in the pkg-config search path.
Perhaps you should add the directory containing `libcurl.pc'
to the PKG_CONFIG_PATH environment variable
No package 'libcurl' found
Package libcares was not found in the pkg-config search path.
Perhaps you should add the directory containing `libcares.pc'
to the PKG_CONFIG_PATH environment variable
No package 'libcares' found
Package openssl was not found in the pkg-config search path.
Perhaps you should add the directory containing `openssl.pc'
to the PKG_CONFIG_PATH environment variable
No package 'openssl' found
Package tre was not found in the pkg-config search path.
Perhaps you should add the directory containing `tre.pc'
to the PKG_CONFIG_PATH environment variable
No package 'tre' found
Package libhubbub was not found in the pkg-config search path.
Perhaps you should add the directory containing `libhubbub.pc'
to the PKG_CONFIG_PATH environment variable
No package 'libhubbub' found
Package libcss was not found in the pkg-config search path.
Perhaps you should add the directory containing `libcss.pc'
to the PKG_CONFIG_PATH environment variable
No package 'libcss' found
 COMPILE: utils/utils.c
/bin/sh: O2: command not found
Makefile:600: recipe for target `build-CYGWIN_NT_5_1-amiga/deps/utils_utils.d' f
ailed
make: [build-CYGWIN_NT_5_1-amiga/deps/utils_utils.d] Error 127 (ignored)
 COMPILE: utils/utf8.c
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Old 01-29-2013, 04:22 PM   #57
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

Hiya,

I was getting the same kinds of issues when I was trying to build it under Cygwin, it seems that it wants the .pc files (I hate makefiles BTW).
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Old 01-29-2013, 04:28 PM   #58
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by wawrzon View Post
@chris:

since i believe ill have to define new target first, im now just trying to build only netsurf without the libs. i should have the libs available for the 68k maybe not the latest version, but lets leave that for later. ive disabled all gfx formats for this now.
The correct target is "amigaos3". This already exists, there's nothing new to define.

Don't try to build without the libs, you'll just get a load of pkg-config errors as you've just seen. You need to build, in roughly this order:

libnsbmp
libnsgif
libwapcaplet
libparserutils
libhubbub
libcss
libdom

Until you have those building it's not worth even touching the main NetSurf source code.

The instructions for building them is on the wiki page I linked to earlier (you need to check out and install buildsystem, then make the libs, using TARGET=amigaos3)
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Old 01-29-2013, 04:34 PM   #59
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by NovaCoder View Post
Hiya,

I was getting the same kinds of issues when I was trying to build it under Cygwin, it seems that it wants the .pc files (I hate makefiles BTW).
Yeah, it needs to pkg-config files. I hate makefiles too.

Building the toolchains should deal with this, but I've never tried building them. I just build NetSurf with TARGET=amiga HOST=amiga, which tricks it into thinking it is building natively - the native build section doesn't have any of the pkg-config crap because it results in cryptic errors that are virtually impossible to isolate, and I never seem to have the correct pkg-config files anyway.

The cross- compilation section is specifically set up for building using the toolchains.
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Old 01-29-2013, 05:03 PM   #60
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Thumbs down Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by wawrzon View Post
http://postimage.org/image/rnfsdgjeb/

config: aros68k, a4k, 060/50, cv64, x-surf.
Nice monitor.
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