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Old 01-27-2013, 08:50 AM   #1
a-pex
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Exclamation We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

Hello all,

we need a new BROWSER for 68k Systems supporting CSS & AGA.
A first step is NETSURF, but it has no native GUI and is not optimized.

Why? With the upcoming PHP 5.4.x VBulletin 3 & 4 is no more supported.
This is something that will happen in the future for www.a1k.org.

After a long internal discussion I can say that the www.a1k.org Community grand a minimum of 750€ for a working optimized Browser supporting 68k, AGA & CSS.

And I am sure this will be more only from our side, together with other Amiga Communities this could be enough money for a nice holiday. :-)

Regarding OS4 we have enough good solutions, but we need something again for the Classic Amigas...
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:05 AM   #2
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by a-pex View Post
Hello all,

we need a new BROWSER for 68k Systems supporting CSS & AGA.
A first step is NETSURF, but it has no native GUI and is not optimized.

Why? With the upcoming PHP 5.4.x VBulletin 3 & 4 is no more supported.
This is something that will happen in the future for www.a1k.org.

After a long internal discussion I can say that the www.a1k.org Community grand a minimum of 750€ for a working optimized Browser supporting 68k, AGA & CSS.

And I am sure this will be more only from our side, together with other Amiga Communities this could be enough money for a nice holiday. :-)

Regarding OS4 we have enough good solutions, but we need something again for the Classic Amigas...
Great! Start coding!
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:17 AM   #3
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

I am no coder and I think I am doing enough for the AMIGA community.
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:35 AM   #4
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Thumbs down Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pentad View Post
Great! Start coding!
This is the same bullshyt "write and submit a patch" and "RTFM" mindset which pushes a lot of people away from F/OSS projects.

While many people have ideas not everyone is a do-er or a coder. Responses like yours discourage people from providing ideas.

I don't know what a-pex does to support the Amiga community, but I certainly wouldn't discount his missive simply because he's not coding.
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Old 01-27-2013, 10:16 AM   #5
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

Here's roughly what needs to be done to get the OS4 frontend for NetSurf working on OS3/AGA: http://wiki.netsurf-browser.org/Todo...nd#OS3_Support

Note that:
* The plotters code does not need P96 or RTG. Although I can't test it on AGA, it works fine on an 8-bit RTG screen using graphics.library functions only. (Screenshot)
* The font code uses the bullet API, but the new-style OS4 calls for setup. By default it uses anti-aliasing via tags that are new to OS4. On palette-mapped screens it reverts back to old non-AA calls.
* It's Reaction-based, but the trickiest part is probably the scrollbars in the window border, which are attached using new tags and classes. NetSurf has built-in "grab and drag" so the scrollbars could be omitted initially anyway! The rest of the GUI is pretty basic buttons, string gadget (this is a custom job, but can be reverted back to the standard one if necessary) and a tab bar, none of which use any new features AFAIK. The menu is attached with a new tag but that's easily changed.

I'm happy to give assistance with back-porting this.
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Old 01-27-2013, 11:47 AM   #6
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoadWB View Post
I don't know what a-pex does to support the Amiga community, but I certainly wouldn't discount his missive simply because he's not coding.
I am the founder from www.a1k.org and still managing and owning this forum since over 8 years now... From 2004-2006 I produced together with Andrew over 50 new AMIGA Phoenix boards and I am also beta tester for OS4. Hope this is enough, to post my wishes here. I am no coder, but I am supporting the AMIGA since 1988!!!

Last edited by a-pex; 01-27-2013 at 11:50 AM..
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Old 01-27-2013, 01:39 PM   #7
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

@a-pex

Dont waste your time on this forum as you can see... i dont understand german but i visit your forum many time, great work.
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Old 01-27-2013, 01:44 PM   #8
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

If ported to 3.9 aga I will gladly donate as well
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Old 01-27-2013, 02:17 PM   #9
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

The classic users make up the biggest block of the Amiga community, it's what has kept the likes of Amigakit in business for almost 10 years. Yet what I don't understand is that with all this appetite for new and used hardware, it doesn't seem to translate into much desire for new software as well.

What we need here is some kind of bounty system like they already have in place for the NG Amiga's. It's understandable that most of the remaining developers choose to use their time and skills enhancing the new Amiga OS's, it's what the are passionate about. If we want these people to backport their software with all the extra hassle it entails using the ancient Amiga Workbench, then it's up to us classic enthusiasts to ask them nicely and get the bounty's organized and in place to pay them.

Last edited by Akiko; 01-27-2013 at 02:20 PM..
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Old 01-27-2013, 02:20 PM   #10
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoadWB View Post
This is the same bullshyt "write and submit a patch" and "RTFM" mindset which pushes a lot of people away from F/OSS projects.

While many people have ideas not everyone is a do-er or a coder. Responses like yours discourage people from providing ideas.

I don't know what a-pex does to support the Amiga community, but I certainly wouldn't discount his missive simply because he's not coding.
it sure looks like the amiga community don't have any 'do'ers' left anymore at least in the coding department. but one thing it sure has, is a hell of a lot of 'users' that just want and want and want... maybe it's time to get starting learning to code before it will be to late...

and before you jump on my arse i have quit the amiga long time ago. i just use it for what it is an old failed attempt of a computer, with fun old games.
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Old 01-27-2013, 02:33 PM   #11
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Thumbs down Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by A1260 View Post
it sure looks like the amiga community don't have any 'do'ers' left
If we would have only coders in the community, the community would be also dead!

2004 there was no good german Amiga forum and the classic community was like dead.
I made a forum, I am still taking care for it, we have many people developing hardware and do not getting money for it, why only a coder must be got paid? What is with all the other people taking care for this great computer?

I will quit every work I am doing to learn coding and then? Who will manage my forum?
Should I close it? It is one of the biggest, at the moment we have over 170 people online...

I do not understand where the problem is to ask for a new browser port without getting blamed from everyone. Same on EAB. Thank you to all for that!
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Old 01-27-2013, 02:37 PM   #12
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by A1260 View Post
it sure looks like the amiga community don't have any 'do'ers' left anymore at least in the coding department. but one thing it sure has, is a hell of a lot of 'users' that just want and want and want... maybe it's time to get starting learning to code before it will be to late...

and before you jump on my arse i have quit the amiga long time ago. i just use it for what it is an old failed attempt of a computer, with fun old games.
You definitely put it better than the other poster. Saying "the Amiga community has very few coders remaining and we could use some more if you have the time to learn" is a helluva lot better than simply telling someone to do it themselves, which is the inference taken from curt comments in response to better-detailed wish-lists.

Your use is irrelevant to my opinion, and my opinion is irrelevant to your use, so you'll get no arse-jumping from me. Especially since I agree with you: It is a shame that we've lost a lot of programmers and I believe it's important that we show appreciation to those remaining not just in verbal and monetary support, but also perhaps by joining their ranks. Personally, when I've though I have the time to jump in, life has other ideas for me. I purchased Cubic several years back to facilitate my adventure, and it sits largely unused right now.
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Old 01-27-2013, 02:51 PM   #13
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

...by the way, I am using a Mac for 90% of my daily work, but I will never quit with my AMIGAs. Why? It is great hobby and if you met the right people helping each other, it is a fantastic hobby.
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Old 01-27-2013, 04:14 PM   #14
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

Hiya Apex

It's an interesting project but it would take lots of time for me to port Netsurf AGA, even with help.
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Old 01-27-2013, 04:43 PM   #15
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
@a-pex

Dont waste your time on this forum as you can see...
Is there's some special need you felt to insult everybody else on the forum? Or are you naturally this rude?

@a-pex

There are other possibilities in the short term. This site went through a similar transition a while ago was updated to a version of vbulletin that is heavily dependent on CSS for layout and some functionality.

This upset a few classic users that couldn't use the site after the update. So, I wrote a small degrader proxy in PHP that parses the markup and degrades it into (far obsoleted) HTML that iBrowse (and AWeb) can cope with.

Compare this site in iBrowse versus this one: http://aoproxy.extropia.co.uk/

What you could do is set up a sub domain on a1k and we could look at installing a suitably modified version of the code on it to cope with whatever forum engine you ultimately go for.
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Old 01-27-2013, 05:04 PM   #16
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

No insults here, but when someone answer "great, start coding" is a wate of time... if you want to moderate do it but dont invent insults... no more replys about this.
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Old 01-27-2013, 05:38 PM   #17
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

What was in the original post a great idea and such dream of mine to have a modern browser on an a classic Amiga, enough so to be able to have the browser smart enough to convert youtube videos into a format that can run in a classic Amiga with CPU 030 such as HV format but live stream so you do not wait days and HD space consumption doing it for each video you watch in youtube..and other cool features such as up to date HTML 5 support, css, javascript, php, etc....to a childish Pickering. Where are the adults I wonder?
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Old 01-27-2013, 07:27 PM   #18
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

I wonder what could be done with Odyssey?
I don't know that an Amiga would have enough power to display html5.
But the idea of a conversion filter is intriguing.
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Old 01-27-2013, 07:47 PM   #19
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

Video conversion takes time. In it'd take longer to convert a video stream and play that than it would to run the original clip in veeeery sloooow slideshow fashion. There's also a lot of other "simple" modern standards that'd struggle on any 680x0 cpu (including an overclocked 680x0 which is 10x+ the speed of any '030).

This isnt to say a more modernised browser isnt possible, it just sounds like some people are expecting too much from the good 'ol classics.

My suggestion would be to set up an organised effort, with (realistic) bounty goals clearly defined. The current expectations of a 68k browser with everything and the kitchen sink probably makes it hard for an interested person to take such a thing seriously. A more basic browser supporting CSS and javascript (netsurf isnt bad, but lack of javascript is quite limiting) is way more realistic/reasonable in my opinion.

As for the suggestion theres no coders, etc. remaining...... thats one of the craziest things Ive heard in a while.
Currently "amiga" (os3.x/4.x/mos/aros) coders are writing 3 entirely new oses, along with collectively thousands of pieces of software. OS3.x is still getting work done on it and new ports and software done. Heck, even one of the "NG" options has multiple versions (x86,x86-64,arm,ppc,68k, assorted hosted versions, etc.).
Despite all the bickering and stupidity in this community when I sit back I cant help but be impressed what this community has achieved with so little resources.
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Old 01-27-2013, 08:07 PM   #20
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Default Re: We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

What would really be useful in a 68k browser is a Javascript whitelist feature such as NoScript provides for Firefox. An improved JS engine would be nice, but ultimately there's just too much JS bloat on modern websites; even modern systems get dragged down by it. A whitelist would at least help to contain the insanity; as is, I spend more time in iBrowse waiting for scripts to time out than I do actually looking at webpages.
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