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[danbeaver]

Why is USB crap?

And ISA served its purpose and is just replaced by better standards.

[commodorejohn]

USB didn't replace ISA, PCI did. USB replaced the parallel and serial ports for connecting external peripherals, though in some cases it did alleviate the need for a separate controller card.

[LoadWB]

Originally Posted by freqmax

USB has in essence replaced ISA (both are crap!)

Is USB crap? I would say not. It has limitations, but most of things I disliked about USB 1.x and 2.0 have been corrected with USB3. As well, a big part of my problems with USB were/are related to shytty drivers.

ISA < EISA < VLB < PCI < PCI-X < PCIe, and whatever else will come along. I didn't include off-shoots like MCA and such ilk. It's been pretty neat to watch things progress over time. The story is that Intel intentionally crippled AGP, and if true it would be a great example of the industry manipulating itself for planned obsolescence.

[danbeaver]

Originally Posted by freqmax

USB has in essence replaced ISA (both are crap!)

Folks, "I" didn't say they were crap; "I" feel they were evolutionary changes. The S-100 begat the ISA and morse code begat the serial interface. "I" consider the USB essential to inexpensive connectivity in this and only this current market. There WILL be another paradigm shift ("I'd" like it to use fiber optic). "I" don't condemn the technology I use; I just complain about the lack of support -- tried to buy a USB card supported in OS 4.1 lately -- and the unreasonable cost ($90 for an NEC USB card costing $5 to use in a Mediator?).

Oh, as far as stupid corporate decisions, y'all remember IBM's microchannnel 32-bit bus for the PS/2 line of computers? Remember it was sold connected to a 386SX CPU with a 16-bit data bus?

[LoadWB]

Originally Posted by danbeaver

Folks, "I" didn't say they were crap; "I" feel they were evolutionary changes. The S-100 begat the ISA and morse code begat the serial interface. "I" consider the USB essential to inexpensive connectivity in this and only this current market. There WILL be another paradigm shift ("I'd" like it to use fiber optic). "I" don't condemn the technology I use; I just complain about the lack of support -- tried to buy a USB card supported in OS 4.1 lately -- and the unreasonable cost ($90 for an NEC USB card costing $5 to use in a Mediator?).

Oh, as far as stupid corporate decisions, y'all remember IBM's microchannnel 32-bit bus for the PS/2 line of computers? Remember it was sold connected to a 386SX CPU with a 16-bit data bus?

Yeah, that's the MCA I mentioned. Niche, proprietary buss. I actually had an MCA parallel port for a while I tried to offload on someone. Surprisingly, no takers.

And I blame you for my mis-quote I missed the ramble to which your post referred but did not quote, so all I saw was you asking why USB is crap. By this I perceived you as making a declarative in the form of an interrogative. I have fixed this in my original. Sorry for the screw up.

[danbeaver]

Thank you

[vox]

Originally Posted by danbeaver

I'm afraid the Amiga is considered to be "complete history."

NO, there are developing OSs and hardware for them.
Maybe Commodore is.

[danbeaver]

In the context that you describe the AGP "complete history," many non-enthusiasts would say the same of the Amiga. "Windows" supports AGP in version 7 and 8 and they are still being made and for sale in normal computer stores such as, NewEgg and TigerDirect. The NG Amigas are sold "hobby" quantities, and the OS support is in the hands of just a few individuals working for a small company based in Belgium.

I bought my first Amiga in 1986 ( having saved up enough after grad school) and have been an active user/consumer until the present. I have my grandparent's 1938 Philco radio that I re-wired and re-populated with vacuum tubes so it works as well. To me nothing is "complete history" as long as it is useful.

[freqmax]

USB is crap because:
* Uses polling rather than letting devices tell when service is needed
* Half-duplex with associated latency, superpositioning wave amplitude, speed and predictibility problems etc
* Use of single ended signaling for out of band signaling
* Hierarcical structure enforced, more complicated than a bus option
* Single master (OTG is patchwork)
* Limited to 127 units
* Insufficient power 2,5 W (vs 45 W for firewire) which makes 3G dongles etc out of specification
* Lacks galvanic isolation with signal transformers, like Ethernet is designed

ISA was in essence replaced by USB because they are on the same performance level and both serves as "geekports". PCI (and MCA/Zorro) are something completely different with autoconfig, wide bus, thought through transfer phases etc.

[vox]

Originally Posted by danbeaver

In the context that you describe the AGP "complete history," many non-enthusiasts would say the same of the Amiga. "Windows" supports AGP in version 7 and 8 and they are still being made and for sale in normal computer stores such as, NewEgg and TigerDirect. The NG Amigas are sold "hobby" quantities, and the OS support is in the hands of just a few individuals working for a small company based in Belgium.

I bought my first Amiga in 1986 ( having saved up enough after grad school) and have been an active user/consumer until the present. I have my grandparent's 1938 Philco radio that I re-wired and re-populated with vacuum tubes so it works as well. To me nothing is "complete history" as long as it is useful.

You are getting to have apples and bannas (frogs and grandmas in Serbian) mixed over here.

AGP is defacto dead, there are no new boards and cards, unlike with PCI bus (replaed by PCI-E x1 but not yet) as well as ISA bus.

Classic Amigas are dead because they are not produced since 1996 (with except of Minimig and FPGA board) and 68k OS ceased to develop with OS 3.9 (AROS 68k is backport for FPGA and Natami, Classics are kind of weak for it).

Off course, ISA, AGP cards and Classics are usable and avaliable to purchase for those who know how to use them.

USB criticism: Keyboards, mouses and other small devices don`t really need it and already had PS/2 and other standards.
Not as fast as Firewire, UW SCSI or SATA2 for data transfer (Bluetooth?) not enough power for serious devices
and mostly no plug and play as it was supposed to be.

[danbeaver]

For me a technology is not "dead" if it is still useful; nothing is perfect when you seek out faults

[freqmax]

A technology is useful or not in a particular context.

As for USB, one could at least implemented some full duplex RS-422 or bus-like RS-485. Allowed multimaster operation. Allowed 12V with 1A at least. Implemented a bitrate of 100 kbit/s for easy MCU implementation. It's complicated to be too expensive, and crap enough to not be worthwhile. Look at Ethernet for how to do things.

[Duce]

Originally Posted by freqmax

USB is crap because:
* Uses polling rather than letting devices tell when service is needed
* Half-duplex with associated latency, superpositioning wave amplitude, speed and predictibility problems etc
* Use of single ended signaling for out of band signaling
* Hierarcical structure enforced, more complicated than a bus option
* Single master (OTG is patchwork)
* Limited to 127 units
* Insufficient power 2,5 W (vs 45 W for firewire) which makes 3G dongles etc out of specification
* Lacks galvanic isolation with signal transformers, like Ethernet is designed

ISA was in essence replaced by USB because they are on the same performance level and both serves as "geekports". PCI (and MCA/Zorro) are something completely different with autoconfig, wide bus, thought through transfer phases etc.

LOL, just LOL.

Dudes, the best tech rarely wins, if it did, the Amiga would be thriving. What it reads as "on paper" means absolutely nothing to Joe Digicam.
My Mum doesn't give 2 ****s about the limits of 127 devices, voltages, or polling with USB. She wants to plug her camera into her computer, her printer to her Mac. It works, and that is all anyone cares about. Anyone that requires better solutions has been using something better suited for YEARS.

USB is ubiquitous, love it or hate it. Joe Printer can plug any device in via an easy to use cable without blowing crap up, and that is all that matters.
People that require higher performance have many other options.

[freqmax]

It were Intel that choosed the technical grounds not Joe Digicam. The cost for a better standard would have been less.

[outlawal2]

Originally Posted by Duce

LOL, just LOL.

Dudes, the best tech rarely wins, if it did, the Amiga would be thriving. What it reads as "on paper" means absolutely nothing to Joe Digicam.
My Mum doesn't give 2 ****s about the limits of 127 devices, voltages, or polling with USB. She wants to plug her camera into her computer, her printer to her Mac. It works, and that is all anyone cares about. Anyone that requires better solutions has been using something better suited for YEARS.

USB is ubiquitous, love it or hate it. Joe Printer can plug any device in via an easy to use cable without blowing crap up, and that is all that matters.
People that require higher performance have many other options.

+1
ABSOLUTELY

USB is NOT crap.. that is a ridiculous statement.. Is it the ultimate in speed? No But absolutely NOTHING compares to the ease of use and functional plug and play that it does provide.. To connect just about any peripheral on the market with no hassles? USB.. If you need anything faster then use the Firewire connector mounted right next to it... But don't beat up USB and call it names... That is just silly..

As for the Speed of USB, how old is the original spec? Of COURSE it is slow.. and that is why there are revisions to that spec of 2.0 and now 3.0... USB was a sound choice with a serviceable lifespan of updates to follow...

Used properly and with a little bit of forethought USB is a simple, usable catch-all port especially when you don't need blazing speeds..

One of the things folks forget is that when SUPPORTING a particular platform you have to take the TIME and it's associated costs into mind when making decisions on new technology. USB and it's spec updates is probably respopnsible for saving more support time and therefore money due to ease of use than any other single technology in use today. (That may be a bit of a stretch, but not MUCH of a stretch)