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[dreamcast270mhz]

@Kesa
Understandable, but I, and others, I am sure, are tired of hearing whines by naive members who want x feature, or want it on x machine. What I am suggesting is creating an actual user space, where people who actually use it can have their slice of pie. It is a filter, of sorts, to the 4chan overflow we get. To this end, it basically follows the rules many etats-unidans place on politics: if you do not vote, you cannot criticize. Applying it to MorphOS, you get: "If you aren't using it, you cannot complain.

The problem lies in people who cannot be appeased, much like the Knights of Ni they simply want more shrubberies than one can provide.

[hooligan]

Originally Posted by hbarcellos

I think this is a no-future situation. Even if it's a hobby for developers, I think it's time to re-think the "business model" of MorphOS development. Maybe open-source it and invite all the community to write drivers and etc (similar to Linux)...

It's not a trivial job to write a driver, especially if there is very little info about the device. There really aren't that many in this community who can do it properly, and then there's always the timeissue.. many of the capable ones are already fully occupied. Ambient is already opensourced so that's one way to support development.

[Kesa]

I am thinking maybe you take this whole thing too seriously. You need to sit back and just laugh at it all. That's the best way to combat the squabbling. Being dictatorial is definitely not the answer.

[takemehomegrandma]

Originally Posted by wawrzon

id say amiga os+ is clearly rather meant for additionally patched 68k system.

Patched and somewhat evolved and developed (unofficially) in an decentralized and ad-hoc manner, by several independent entities, for the past 12 years and still going on today. The first image (who obviously someone put on wikipedia ) tries to make it look like 3.x ended with Hyperions 4.0 release. For many people, 4.0 was never a continuation, but some kind of a *fork* on different hardware they never could connect to, hence always irrelevant to their Amiga interests, and various developments has continued (as mentioned above) on the 68k Amiga platform that indeed never ended, still goes on today, and that wikipedia picture does not show this. There are four directions in the Amiga community (listed in the order they appeared): Amiga (68k), AROS, MorphOS and OS4, and OS4 could very well be the least significant of them all; so in short: that wikipedia image has it completely screwed up!

[spirantho]

I was under the impression that OS4 was the only one of the three that actually used the OS 3 sources, though...? So it seems fair enough to have it as a continuation of the OS 3 line, while the others fork off (I wonder if the "Amiga.org censorship bot" will censor that).
The fact that OS 4 runs on different hardware is irrelevant, it does share its roots with OS3, and is the only one which does.

[takemehomegrandma]

Originally Posted by hooligan

It's not a trivial job to write a driver, especially if there is very little info about the device. There really aren't that many in this community who can do it properly, and then there's always the timeissue.. many of the capable ones are already fully occupied. Ambient is already opensourced so that's one way to support development.

Indeed, and drivers are at no use if you don't have any underlying technology in the OS to handle the kind of devices in question. A driver for a soundcard would be no fun without the AHI technology, a driver for a USB2 card would be no fun without an USB stack, a driver for some ethernet chip/card would be no fun without a TCP/IP stack. AFAIK there is much more to it than just a driver for the wireless HW to be developed, you must also create the technology that can utilize the drivers in a sensible way. MorphOS 3.0 made great progress by incorporating a lot of essential laptop technologies, like multi-finger touch pad, battery management, CPU throttling, back-light control, energy profile management, etc. Much of this work probably represents technologies that can be reused on other laptops, using other drivers.

Many people screamed for powerbook support in MorphOS, many wanted it now *despite* they knew WiFi wasn't ready. And there was *no secret* about the WiFi status, it has been in the open for a *very* long time, so why act surprised? I think the MorphOS team did the right thing to release it now. You can very much use the powerbooks for Internet, through cable, and all other essential laptop technologies (except bluetooth and WiFi) is present, as is all the benefits from MorphOS 3.0, the entire MorphOS with all the bells and whistles is there, it's not like it would be something completely unusable like some people wants to picture it.

Anyway, it's not like MorphOS 3.0 was all about Powerbook now, right? I don't have a powerbook, but there is so much new and improved stuff in MorphOS 3.0 that makes it worthy the version bump even without the new HW support. I think it's nothing short of amazing!

This is a safe claim: MorphOS 3.0 represents the *peak* of the entire Amiga evolution, all flavors/colors counted.

In short: MorphOS 3.0 is Amiga done right!

But don't take my word for it, go get some cheap Mac G4 and try for yourself!

[takemehomegrandma]

Originally Posted by spirantho

I was under the impression that OS4 was the only one of the three that actually used the OS 3 sources, though...?

Here is the thing: The source code for Amiga OS was created over a long period of time time using several different and more or less exotic programming languages and 68k assembler that were popular at the time (and this was a different time altogether), and it was very much hardcoded for 68k CPU's and the Amiga custom hardware (the HW was the point back then, the OS just a HW enabler). This is the "Amiga OS source code", but what OS4 is based on, is a *rewrite* of the Amiga OS source code in GCC, a cleanup so to say, with portability in mind thus stepping away from being hardcoded for A1200 etc. The real "Amiga OS source code" with the original toolchain etc that commodore used for the various OS components, should output OS 3.1 binaries that would be *identical* as those you can find on any 3.1 workbench disk, you should be able to do a CRC check and they would be one and the same. If you would compile the GCC *rewrite* of it however, it would *NOT* output identical binaries. Simply because it's a rewrite, for a different compiler, it's simply not the same sources anymore! The point of the rewrite was to create an OS with an identical Amiga API that could actually be used for further development and targeting HW beyond the Commodore Amigas that were already aging, and here is the point — in no way does this differ from MorphOS or AROS. Hence the "somewhat artificial as an argument (and not entirely true, technically speaking)" comment above. The API is the key, and AROS, MorphOS and OS4 have all made their own respective re-implementations of the OS in GCC to achieve this, at "alien" CPU's even! Maybe having access to the Amiga OS source code made the rewrite process easier and faster? Or maybe not? Because it's a fact that MorphOS has far better Amiga compatibility than OS4, and it was here long before OS4! That's how relevant that "sources" argument is in practice...

[Duce]

I'll ask you again TMHG, have you even tried OS4? Since you're stoking the red vs. blue fire, entertain me and answer the question.

You're the same guy that said 4.1u2 and 4.1u3 "didn't work for anyone", which was complete and utter bull****. You also claimed that incremental updates on Windows cost money, so you could fluff the MOS pillows with the free 3.0 update, which was BS entirely. Blatant lie that anyone that can type google.com can prove. I never paid a thin dime for *ANY* incremental windows update.

Second question: don't you ever get tired of listening to yourself preach?

Seems like every MOS thread you hijack into some second coming of Christ, complete with BS facts about the "enemy". It's a hobby platform, man. There's no "enemy" - we're all riding the exact same short bus in regards to how our platforms impact real, modern computing.

It's a terrific OS. I appreciate it as much as you do, I really do - but man, I've had multiple people tell me they won't register the damned thing due to zealots like you pounding the pulpit while slandering and lying about the competition. One compared you to a Jehovah's Witness. It's queered more deals for the MOS folks than you can imagine, dude. You have cost them sales, spamming general Amiga sites with nonsense. It's getting embarrassing.

[tone007]

If those guys ever stop making MorphOS, this grandma dude is gonna off himself.

[takemehomegrandma]

Originally Posted by Duce

I'll ask you again TMHG, have you even tried OS4?

I had a AmigaOne XE with OS4, but that was indeed a long time ago. Won't ever happen again, I swear!

You're the same guy that said 4.1u2 and 4.1u3 "didn't work for anyone"

More like OS4.1.3 was the most bug-ridden release of OS4 ever, which it was (this far at least). Occasionally you can *still* see posts from people trying to install OS4.1.4 and stumbles and fall on the OS4.1.3 release once they gets there (since you on OS4 have to first install the OS, and then the whole sequel of separate updates, one after another). OS4.1.4 was released to correct OS4.1.3, but to reach it, you'll have to make it through 4.1.3 in the update process. Works great for some, but far from everyone.

You also claimed that incremental updates on Windows cost money, so you could fluff the MOS pillows with the free 3.0 update

Eh, no ("Windows", WTF?!) but OS4.0 cost money, OS4.1 cost money and OS4.2 will cost money, and yet Hyperion boasted about "free upgrades as always" or something when they made some 4.1.x release, like it would be a generous deal. I bought MorphOS 2.0, paid once, and have got MorpOS 2.0, 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, 2.4, 2.5, 2.6, 2.7 and now 3.0, later 3.1, 3.2, 3.x, etc. And just for fun, you could compare what you actually got in those updates, both for OS4 and for MorphOS, and how much it cost you.

I never paid a thin dime for *ANY* incremental windows update.

Neither have I...

lying about the competition ... Jehovah's Witness ... Yada yada

Someone posted a picture from Wikipedia that obviously is erroneous and misleading, I talk about why. Someone posts a link with the usual "but it doesn't have the sources", and I talk about the sources. Someone made a post that MorphOS 3.0 would be worthless on Powerbook because it doesn't have WiFi yet, and I commented on that.

If you don't like what I have to say, don't read it. In threads, topics of discussion can evolve, that's natural in discussions, but this post of yours was the first really useless and completely off topic one in this thread this far. Utterly pointless. Congratulations!

[Linde]

Originally Posted by Crumb

I care about Amiga software. The only unix software I'm interested is the correctly ported one. CLI ported apps are crap. alien-GUI ported apps are crap too

Sure, just rant about something else instead of actually responding to my argument.

Originally Posted by Crumb

I use cli to launch scripts that automate tasks and to compile, but for normal use it's usually slower than GUI (unless your GUI is absolutely crap).

I find CLIs useful a lot, not only in Linux, but also MorphOS, Amiga and Windows. I don't know what constitutes "normal" use, but unless it's limited to copying files from the root of one folder to another, named/sized/dated so that they show up in order, using simple CLI oneliners can save you a lot of hair if you know the tools of your system well.

[EvilGuy]

Originally Posted by dreamcast270mhz

What I am suggesting is creating an actual user space, where people who actually use it can have their slice of pie. It is a filter, of sorts, to the 4chan overflow we get. To this end, it basically follows the rules many etats-unidans place on politics: if you do not vote, you cannot criticize. Applying it to MorphOS, you get: "If you aren't using it, you cannot complain.

Their own place where they get to sit around, pat each other on the backs and let each other know how good a job they're doing. Sounds awesome. When the circle is finished, who eats the cookie?

Originally Posted by dreamcast270mhz

The problem lies in people who cannot be appeased, much like the Knights of Ni they simply want more shrubberies than one can provide.

The problem is, some people are so in love with morphos/os4 that they can't handle criticism. Saying anything negative about their idol is an attack on them personally. A sheltered community of like-minded users isn't going to make things better.

But hey, good luck with your cult.

[EvilGuy]

Originally Posted by Linde

I find CLIs useful a lot, not only in Linux, but also MorphOS, Amiga and Windows.

Years ago, when Amiga users had the skills to actually type commands into the command line, it was regarded as a special Amiga-ness that the GUI and CLI were so nicely integrated.

Ah, the good old days :-)

[buzz]

evilguy +1

[Crumb]

Originally Posted by Linde

Sure, just rant about something else instead of actually responding to my argument.

I'm just saying I'm interested in Amiga apps. For me it doesn't matter if your Linux box runs 1020102 GTK crashy apps. I prefer to run Amiga software and that's why I'm interested on Amiga-like OSes. Binary,source&philosophy incompatible with AmigaOS means it's not interesting to me. I prefer to use any Amiga paint package instead of the horrible gimp.

I find CLIs useful a lot, not only in Linux, but also MorphOS, Amiga and Windows. I don't know what constitutes "normal" use, but unless it's limited to copying files from the root of one folder to another, named/sized/dated so that they show up in order, using simple CLI oneliners can save you a lot of hair if you know the tools of your system well.

I mean that I prefer to write mails using SimpleMail or Yam rather than sendmail or using pop/smtp commands through telnet. I prefer to use subversion GUIs instead of cli versions. I prefer to use apps with GUIs integrated, with ARexx ports etc instead of cli apps with a badly written GTK gui that are not up to date with cli version and since the linux GUIs are usually badly written you have to edit configuration files scattered through the filesystem tree because unix developers simply are not capable of thinking in alternative ways. All distros are mostly the same with the exception of a few package installers. If you have chosen some BeOS derivative like Haiku at least it has some Amiga spirit, but unix has been the same since the 70s and linux guys simply cloned it and published it with another license but it's not amiga-like, it's anti-intuitive even if you dress it with some fancy installers and skins because when you want to do something slightly different everything crashes and burns. Having good CLI is good? sure! should CLI be an excuse to avoid building apps with decent GUIs? no!. BTW, all these Linux GUI toolkits even the ones presented as "light" are usually quite resource hungry and slow. I prefer using visual diff tools instead of cli ones. I prefer managing all my project files using a gui instead of handling them through cli. I prefer to refactorize classes using GUIs instead of using find and sed to replace names. I prefer to debug graphically instead of using gdb.

As I have said Linux GUIs are usually crap because they claim you can do much better with command line, but it's a bad excuse since they are not capable of producing decent GUIs with access to all program features.

Anyway, I'm interested on Amiga software so I don't care much about what linux distro you run on your laptop because it doesn't run amiga software and has nothing to do with amiga, crap directory structure, crap guis that break and force the user to edit config files by hand instead of default basic gui options... and bad software too, if you talk about productivity Windows runs rings aroung linux. If you are interested on amiga at all you'll want to use Amiga software I guess. And for me that means using AROS/MorphOS/AmigaOS... linux is not amiga. Haiku looks nice and doesn't stink like unix.