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[Mr_DBUG]

Great guy, RIP
(thought he died a few years ago ! Stunned to see this news .. )

[TrevorDick]

Sad news. RIP Jack

My first computer was a CBM4032 followed by a C64 while you were still running Commodore. By all accounts you were a hard task master but, given your personal family history (Auschwitz survivor) it's perhaps no surprise.

I wonder how the Amiga (& Commodore) would have turned out if you had remained at Commodore? It will be interesting to see how the revisionist Microsoft/Apple media commemorate one of the great icons of the Personal computer age.

TrevorD

[Drummerboy]

RIP Mr Jack Tramiel!. a visionary who are already scarce



http://news.cnet.com/8301-10797_3-57...ol;editorPicks

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by TrevorDick

Sad news. RIP Jack

My first computer was a CBM4032 followed by a C64 while you were still running Commodore. By all accounts you were a hard task master but, given your personal family history (Auschwitz survivor) it's perhaps no surprise.

I wonder how the Amiga (& Commodore) would have turned out if you had remained at Commodore? It will be interesting to see how the revisionist Microsoft/Apple media commemorate one of the great icons of the Personal computer age.

TrevorD

Not a word on the BBC website...

[vidarh]

Originally Posted by TheBilgeRat

Man, its funny to watch Jack and Woz trade jabs. There is no love lost there!

Frankly, Woz is massively overrated, so I'm not surprised.

He seems like a lovable enough guy, and a good engineer (or at least he was), but he only gets the amount credit he gets because he left Apple before the going got tough, and because Apple did very well in the US and particularly on the West coast and even more specifically with West coast "hackers", many of whom later ended up in tech journalism, while Commodore ultimately failed and did best outside the US. It's survivor bias (for Apple) coupled with a lot of revisionism, an amazing marketing and PR machine at Apple even in the early days, and lack of perspective. Unfortunately it seems like Woz has come to believe a lot of the hype that's gotten attached to him over the years.

That's not to say that they guy didn't do amazing stuff, but a lot of other people did amazing stuff too, including people like Tramiel and Chuck Peddle (people's written about him that while Woz made a machine starting with chips made by Peddle, Chuck Peddle made a machine by starting with sand; and Peddle himself reportedly said to Tramiel a few years ago that while Tramiel "ruined his life" he is still thankful to Tramiel for giving him the chance to change peoples lives that he wouldn't otherwise had), and a bunch of later Commodore engineers, as well as people elsewhere.

While the early Apple's by all account were good machines (never seen one in real-life - they were non-entities in Norway where I grew up), they were for most intents a niche product for middle class Americans, and for a very long time not a very successful one. Commodore, Texas Instruments, Sinclair and Tandy/Radio Shack all did vastly more to popularize computing than Apple did in its early years.

The veneration for Jobs is more understandable - his turnaround of Apple after his return, coupled with his successes with Pixar and Next and the way he hung in there at Apple while battling cancer and losing -, is the stuff of legends whether or not you like the guy.

But Woz was a one hit wonder that went on to live off his one success and image and hasn't really done anything of note since the early 80's (unless you count driving a Segway around and waiting in line at Apple stores for no good reason). Nothing wrong with that, and something to dream of being able to do if that's the lifestyle you want, but not really worth the level of admiration he gets.

A lot of the lack of credit both to Commodore people and others comes down to the US bias in the computer press and survivor bias, coupled with the desire for a lovable or admirable hero or anti-hero to build up. Tramiel wasn't as charismatic as Jobs, and not as lovable as Woz. And the engineers in Commodore has not really been made as visible to anyone without a special interest.

In many ways, the biggest difference between Tramiel and the two Steve's is probably that Tramiel was way more human than Jobs (for both good and bad - his tempers are of course famous, but so is his dedication to his family, to the extent that he was willing to lose Commodore at least in part over his sons involvement), and way more committed and determined than Woz (in that way he was probably closer to Jobs).

[vidarh]

I quite liked this obituary at siliconvalley.com as it's not just the "copy and paste and slightly adjust wording" that most of the other obituaries comes off as.

CNet's obituary is quite good too., and links to a great interview with Jack from 2007.

Also, Michael Tomczyk, who became largely responsible for the marketing of the VIC-20 (and the foreword to its manual) has updated his website with some quite nice additions about Tramiel.

[huronking]

Originally Posted by vidarh

Frankly, Woz is massively overrated, so I'm not surprised.

He seems like a lovable enough guy, and a good engineer (or at least he was), but he only gets the amount credit he gets because he left Apple before the going got tough, and because Apple did very well in the US and particularly on the West coast and even more specifically with West coast "hackers", many of whom later ended up in tech journalism, while Commodore ultimately failed and did best outside the US. It's survivor bias (for Apple) coupled with a lot of revisionism, an amazing marketing and PR machine at Apple even in the early days, and lack of perspective. Unfortunately it seems like Woz has come to believe a lot of the hype that's gotten attached to him over the years.


In many ways, the biggest difference between Tramiel and the two Steve's is probably that Tramiel was way more human than Jobs (for both good and bad - his tempers are of course famous, but so is his dedication to his family, to the extent that he was willing to lose Commodore at least in part over his sons involvement), and way more committed and determined than Woz (in that way he was probably closer to Jobs).

Oddly, you didn't mention that U.S. schools were FULL of Apple computers in the early 80's. That was the key to their early success- marketing as an "education" machine when it was no better than its contemporaries. This led to alot of home sales with no technical qualification whatsoever, and the high cost fed the status and prestige. The Apple ]['s were costly enough, and the Lisa and Mac were too expensive to buy in bulk.

This created the vacuum filled by the C64. (And some others of course)
Anyway RIP Jack.

P.S. As far as the Islamoterror infiltration thing- none of these guys died poor. Just a thought.

[Pentad]

I would like to add my 2cents to all of this too:

Commodore will always be apart of me for both the Commodore64/128 and the Amiga line. Commodore and Jack made it possible for a whole generation to own a computer and that was a jumping off point for so many careers, innovations, and personal lives. I am happy to say that I was in that group.

My experience with a Commodore 64 in 1983 (for Christmas) was the most life-changing product I've ever owned. Jack's passing is another mark in my history of getting older and watching those that have come before me pass into history.

I think Jack touched many people's lives and whether he was as ruthless as the stories paint him I do not know. I am just glad for the good that he has done and wish him well in the next life.


Thank you Jack.

RIP

-P

[Manu]

Originally Posted by vidarh

CNet's obituary is quite good too., and links to a great interview with Jack from 2007.

Thanks for the link, this qoute down below I agree with a 100 %

When I was in high school, it seemed like there was almost a culture war between users of the Commodore 64, the Apple IIe, and the Atari 800. What do you think was different about the machines and the people who used them?

Tramiel: The only difference was the price. Because it seems that in this country, if you sell something cheaper, it can't be as good. If it's more expensive, and it's the same product, it must be a better product. That didn't stop me. I still wanted to sell it for a low price. But if a person pays three times as much for a computer, he has to be proud of it, because he paid for it. He can't call himself stupid.

[Haranguer]

My first computer was a Commodore 64. I loved that thing, and I'm still amazed by what it could achieve with so little. We'll miss you Jack.

[gertsy]

Originally Posted by Haranguer

My first computer was a Commodore 64. I loved that thing, and I'm still amazed by what it could achieve with so little. We'll miss you Jack.

I know how you feel. Mine was 1982 and a ZX81 + 16K. Anyone who pioneered at that time was a life changer. RIP.

[ral-clan]

Originally Posted by huronking

Oddly, you didn't mention that U.S. schools were FULL of Apple computers in the early 80's.

Commodore had the same strategy here in Canada. Canadian schools were full of PETs and C64s. So naturally every parent bought for their child the same computer that was being used in the schools.

Nary and Apple to be seen in schools here.

[vidarh]

Originally Posted by ral-clan

Commodore had the same strategy here in Canada. Canadian schools were full of PETs and C64s. So naturally every parent bought for their child the same computer that was being used in the schools.

Nary and Apple to be seen in schools here.

Commodore did that in the US too at one point, but they reduced focus on the US market because they could sell PET's at a far higher markup in Europe and elsewhere, while the US market was far more competitive, and they had problems ramping up production early on.

In retrospect perhaps that was a mistake - it bought them important revenue, but when the time came to try to boost their presence in the US again with the VIC-20 and C-64, they'd lost a lot of mindshare.

They even had a PET version with networking and software that let the teacher remote control the other PET's in the class room etc.

[Rodomoc]

Originally Posted by Dragster

Poke 53280,0
Poke 53281,0

Exactly.

I did plenty of time on Pet4032 back in the day, then went on to dig into the C64 even more.
I still have that C64 and it still runs just as good as ever. I might have to dust this and the C128 off and start them up soon.

[CSixx]

May he rest in peace...