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Old 02-18-2012, 07:36 AM   #16
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Default Re: Why no Amiga equiv to Firebee?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu the monkey View Post
on another thought (I've had a drink now) do we want a computer or a games machine?
Both and anything else the imagination can dream up. We need a more open computer platform with the freedom to do what we need and want to. Think of the PS3 if Sony had decided to open up instead of clamp down.
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Old 02-18-2012, 08:42 AM   #17
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Default Re: Why no Amiga equiv to Firebee?

For one thing, the Atari community opened up their OS way sooner than Amiga did. AROS is still decades behind them on usability.

It's hard to build new hardware when all the driver documentation is locked way by the owners.

Pretty much every forward thinking API in the Amiga is kept from us either out of spite or greed, regardless of whether they still sell products or not.
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Old 02-18-2012, 04:39 PM   #18
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Default Re: Why no Amiga equiv to Firebee?

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Originally Posted by Heiroglyph View Post
AROS is still decades behind them on usability.
If that's the case, what are you going to do about it? You can choose to improve the situation if you wish, it's up to you.
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Old 02-18-2012, 07:26 PM   #19
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Default Re: Why no Amiga equiv to Firebee?

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Originally Posted by HenryCase View Post
If that's the case, what are you going to do about it? You can choose to improve the situation if you wish, it's up to you.
Code, money, and hardware development. Since you asked, how about you?

My point was a simple fact. They had a viable OS replacement under their control back in the 90's and we're still trying to get there.

Perhaps it's because they could actually get along.

Last edited by Heiroglyph; 02-18-2012 at 07:28 PM..
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Old 02-18-2012, 07:29 PM   #20
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Default Re: Why no Amiga equiv to Firebee?

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Originally Posted by Abu the monkey View Post
on another thought (I've had a drink now) do we want a computer or a games machine?
Personally, I'd like a computer (although one that could be used to play games wouldn't hurt).
And the PS3 was neat (I spent a lot of time studying the specs of that), so was the XBOX360 (and the Wii U is more of the same).
But none of them are open systems.

AROS is the closet thing we have to an open system.
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Old 02-19-2012, 08:02 AM   #21
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Default Re: Why no Amiga equiv to Firebee?

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Originally Posted by Heiroglyph View Post
Code, money, and hardware development. Since you asked, how about you?
How about me? Money, advice for new starters, and advocacy. What hardware development did you do?

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Originally Posted by Heiroglyph View Post
My point was a simple fact. They had a viable OS replacement under their control back in the 90's and we're still trying to get there.

Perhaps it's because they could actually get along.
AROS was started in 1995. Had support been strong back then, there would have been no need for OS4 or MorphOS, the competition between which caused the most fallout in the Amiga community.

What was lacking back then was an understanding of how important the open-source movement was to become. If Amiga developers back then knew how things would pan out, I've no doubt in my mind that AROS would have been the strongest (possibly only) Amiga system by now. Either that, or OS3.x would have been open-sourced.
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Old 02-19-2012, 08:21 AM   #22
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Default Re: Why no Amiga equiv to Firebee?

I think the biggest problem with AROS has always been that they were trying to build AmigaOS for x86 platforms, when everyone was already building upon the PPC.

I think another thing that would have made things better would be if MorphOS also had gone Open Source. Then it would simply be a competition between if some had wanted to run on PPC and others wanted to run on x86.

Even now, MorphOS supports more hardware than OS4.

And therein lies the problem, the Amiga OS and derivatives are a fantastic operating systems, but there isn't crap for hardware support. Even AROS that has the best hardware support out of all of them fails to load on my Laptop or desktop, even though most of the hardware is claimed to be supported. I think I need to download a new ISO and burn it to make sure I just don't have a bad burn or something...

I had waited many years for something like the Firebee to be released, but really, there are just better applications / games for the Amiga. There just needs to be new hardware. I'm definitely going to be getting a Natami when it's released. Especially since AROS 68k is looking mighty fine. It will be awesome to actually have an Open Source AmigaOS that works just as well as the original, and is far easier to set up than the plethora of patches one needs today to get some 'modern' functionality.

I just hope someone gets a supported browser for it. Open Source doesn't always help though, look at the mess that is AWeb, it's open source, but people who have looked at the code ran away.

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Old 02-19-2012, 09:04 AM   #23
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Default Re: Why no Amiga equiv to Firebee?

I really wasn't trying to put down AROS or derail this thread. The Atari guys just got control of their platform earlier.

Since everything Amiga is so closed, you have to basically reverse engineer existing hardware and make your's look like the original to get anywhere. For some reason our OS developers want to write every driver themselves.

I'm not even singling out any one OS. Other than AROS, it seems that they are all this way. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

As someone who has/is actually working on a hardware project, I'm just trying to tell the hurdles I've hit.

1. Amiga custom chipset makes the system timing sensitive in ways that Atari's aren't.
2. PowerUP/WarpUP type CPU cards are undocumented and even the OS owners won't give you any information on them.
3. You can't make a new video card without reverse engineering or writing a new RTG stack.
4. Same for USB. As much as I love my Deneb, they will probably become as rare as PPC cards.
5. Existing card slots are extremely buggy, forcing most of your time into workarounds rather than developing your own hardware/drivers and making the final design as slow as a device from 1995.

Basically you spend more time hacking into the system than making new hardware.

This is the only platform I'm aware of where the OS developers actively try to prevent you from making new hardware.
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Old 02-19-2012, 11:07 AM   #24
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Default Re: Why no Amiga equiv to Firebee?

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Originally Posted by slaapliedje View Post
I just hope someone gets a supported browser for it. Open Source doesn't always help though, look at the mess that is AWeb, it's open source, but people who have looked at the code ran away.
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That's hardly fair, is it? It was developed actively till Sunsite shut down open source hosting, and shortly after that we had OWB pop up for OS4 (and the main developer uses OS4). AWeb was developed and ported to various Amiga operating systems and worked quite well while open source.

But besides that there's obviously Netsurf and OWB as candidates for a 68k AROS.
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Old 02-19-2012, 11:28 AM   #25
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Default Re: Why no Amiga equiv to Firebee?

Quote:
Originally Posted by slaapliedje View Post
I think the biggest problem with AROS has always been that they were trying to build AmigaOS for x86 platforms, when everyone was already building upon the PPC.
The move to PowerPC was announced in 1995, the same year as AROS started, and the Amiga PPC hardware wasn't launched until 1997 (IIRC), so the momentum for the PowerPC wasn't there yet.

Besides this, it's a common misconception that AROS = x86 Amiga. This is not the case. AROS was designed from the very outset to be platform agnostic, the x86 port just developed quicker than the others (for various reasons). For example, before Jason and Toni started working on AROS 68k there was work done to port AROS to 68k Amigas, though the port wasn't maintained for a number of years (apart from AfAOS). If potential AROS developers were interested in using PowerPC, they would have been free to do so, so this PowerPC argument doesn't really hold up, sorry!

Quote:
Originally Posted by slaapliedje View Post
I had waited many years for something like the Firebee to be released, but really, there are just better applications / games for the Amiga. There just needs to be new hardware. I'm definitely going to be getting a Natami when it's released. Especially since AROS 68k is looking mighty fine. It will be awesome to actually have an Open Source AmigaOS that works just as well as the original, and is far easier to set up than the plethora of patches one needs today to get some 'modern' functionality.
I think the Natami is going to be a fantastic system for Amiga fans, and AROS + Natami should prove to be a great combination.

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Originally Posted by slaapliedje View Post
I just hope someone gets a supported browser for it. Open Source doesn't always help though, look at the mess that is AWeb, it's open source, but people who have looked at the code ran away.
An open-source licence doesn't guarantee someone will work on the software, but a closed-source licence doesn't guarantee that either. However, the advantage of open-source in this regard is that at least there's a chance of new developers improving the software if the earlier developer(s) are no longer interested in doing so. With closed source software, that chance is lost.

With regards to a web browser, there have been a few attempts to port AROS OWB to AROS 68k. This post links to the most recent attempt I know about:
http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/v...forumpost61875
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Old 02-19-2012, 11:39 AM   #26
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Default Re: Why no Amiga equiv to Firebee?

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Originally Posted by Heiroglyph View Post
I really wasn't trying to put down AROS or derail this thread. The Atari guys just got control of their platform earlier.
I know, and I agree, the Atari guys did get control of their platform earlier. However, I think you're missing my point; the reason the Atari guys got hold of their platform earlier is because they saw the benefits of open-source earlier. Amiga fans had this chance around the same time too, when AROS was announced, but largely chose to ignore the opportunity instead. That's the point I'm making.

Anyway, I'm interested in learning more about your hardware project, any chance of some info? What kind of hardware are you trying to build?
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Old 02-19-2012, 11:50 AM   #27
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Default Re: Why no Amiga equiv to Firebee?

@ HenryCase,

I will admit, even as a MorphOS user, I find AROS interesting.
The fact that it is open source does lend it some strength.

If it ever gets to 1.0 status it will be quite an accomplishment.
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Old 02-19-2012, 12:37 PM   #28
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Default Re: Why no Amiga equiv to Firebee?

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Originally Posted by HenryCase View Post
I know, and I agree, the Atari guys did get control of their platform earlier. However, I think you're missing my point; the reason the Atari guys got hold of their platform earlier is because they saw the benefits of open-source earlier. Amiga fans had this chance around the same time too, when AROS was announced, but largely chose to ignore the opportunity instead. That's the point I'm making.
That's a very valid point, but closed source doesn't normally preclude writing drivers for hardware.

In the Amiga case, writing drivers for any hardware not supported by plain OS3.1 is essentially impossible without some degree of illegality and reverse engineering.

In my experience, this is unique to Amiga derived systems.

AHI and OpenPCI only get you so far and these are our rare examples of how to do closed source mostly right.

I did have to work out how to get the source and permission to distribute OpenPCI because I wanted to create a new backplane with better throughput.

The only reason for that was because OpenPCI supports the Mediator which again doesn't have a public driver SDK.

When/if I distribute an updated OpenPCI, it will have to be a fork that doesn't work with Mediators because I don't agree with their terms.

Quote:
Anyway, I'm interested in learning more about your hardware project, any chance of some info? What kind of hardware are you trying to build?
You can guess some of the failures from my comments in this thread, but beyond that I'd rather not comment in case my work-around projects come to fruition.

I've got NO problem with people making money from their OS development, it's hard and they deserve to make some money from their efforts, but they are shooting us all in the foot with their constant locking down of the hardware platform.
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Old 02-19-2012, 04:31 PM   #29
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Default Re: Why no Amiga equiv to Firebee?

Quote:
I've got NO problem with people making money from their OS development, it's hard and they deserve to make some money from their efforts, but they are shooting us all in the foot with their constant locking down of the hardware platform.
Sometimes i wonder whether Steve Jobs took inspiration from Amiga feuds for its own walled garden model...^^ (and seems to give an interesting outlook on how the future for computing might look going on this way)

however is exactly the closed approach of the Amiga technologies, both hardware and software that made me do the shift of my expectations towards AROS; especially when a technology is no longer commercially interesting i don't see the reason of keep all the sacred papers and APIs locked and try to nickel and dime every single approach til the end of time rather than deliver it to the community and make it thrive; in example opening the APIs and design of the powerUP cards might encourage to have more development towards it instead now we are here with our beloved and worn toys that risks to break every moment with no way to get fixed or replaced thanks to this IMO small minded approach to marketing pointed to milk the customer and if something go wrong leave him out to the cold.

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Old 02-26-2012, 09:54 AM   #30
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Default Re: Why no Amiga equiv to Firebee?

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Originally Posted by HenryCase View Post
AROS was started in 1995. Had support been strong back then, there would have been no need for OS4 or MorphOS, the competition between which caused the most fallout in the Amiga community.
MOS was started in 1999, four years after AROS.
Amiga Os 4 was started in 2001, six years after AROS.
AROS devs had enough time to make a really good and compatible system.

Quote:
What was lacking back then was an understanding of how important is the open-source movement was to become.
What was lacking back then was an understanding of how important is porting AROS to platforms other than x86, especially 68k.

Last edited by ppcamiga1; 02-26-2012 at 10:38 AM..
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