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[J-Golden]

Sorry all, I've been sick and loaded down with work and some how missed all the attention my post made. Let me take this time to be clear.

CUSA is a business. They, including Barry, have made some poor decisions and remarks that could and should be classified as unprofessional. As far as I can see they are trying to put that behind them with their offer to the Amiga community. Whether it takes fight or not is not the point. I feel they are earnestly trying to offer the olive branch of peace and turn over a new leaf and be a strong supporter in the Amiga Community.

Dammy is not. Most of the comments on the post CUSA put up about this offer were neutral (read wait and see) to mildly positive. Instead of trying to help rally support to this new proposition, Dammy instead attacks and demeans people. He refused the fact that some of the negatively minded people were getting warmed over by this new move and continued to call other members out for past posts. All this does is cause unneeded contention and hurt CUSA's cause rather than help.

THIS is why I gave Dammy his warning; his wake up call that what he was doing was only hurting the very thing he was trying to defend. I'm sure if I really wanted to I could dig up and present enough information to get Dammy kicked but that was not the point of my post.

Did I use the best method? Are people going to be offended? Will I get criticized? I'd be lying if I said I didn't care at all about the answers to these questions, but at the same time I'm going to keep trying to moderate in ways that I deem appropriate.

Haters will hate,
Lovers will love,
Trolls will troll,
Mods will moderate.

Now for a heavy dose on Nyquil to dream of large women in jungle safari bikinis...

[Kesa]

@amigadave. For the last week or so you have been constantly criticizing both the moderators and the members for their behaviour. If you feel so strongly about it why not become a moderator yourself? As far as i know there is only JGolden, Pyromania, Karlos and Argo. That's only 3 mods (i think Karlos and Argo are the same person) and others like Slvrdragon are never here anyway. You are considering being a mod on AW.net and are campaigning for it on Morphzone. What's wrong, are we not good enough for you?

[amigadave]

Originally Posted by Darrin

You really worry me with your ignorance of the facts.

And what facts would those be?

I am just commenting on what I see as destructive to this forum site and as far as I can tell, the CUSA haters are doing more harm than good. In fact, CUSA wouldn't get half the attention it does here if it weren't for the children that can't control themselves and feel compelled to comment negatively in every thread that even mentions CUSA instead of just letting the topic scroll into oblivion where it belongs.

I am well aware of CUSA's past transgressions and mistakes. I am more keenly aware of the constant stream of whining and childish behavior that goes on here in opposition to CUSA.

The previous actions of CUSA don't justify the continuing crap that is posted here EVERYDAY! Grow up!

@Kesa,

First I have only made one observation (make it two if you want to count my questions to the owner of A.org thread) that the moderation does not seem balanced. Secondly, I don't see A.org advertising for new or additional moderators. If they did, I would probably never get chosen here as my views don't align with all the children who have taken over this site.

[cgutjahr]

Originally Posted by amigadave

In fact, CUSA wouldn't get half the attention it does here

CUSA actually needs to grab as much attention as it can, because that's the only thing it's got going for itself. Their first Amiga related announcements are 1.5 years old, and there's still no sign of product, no concept designs, no roadmap, no defined target audience - nothing.

So far, all they have is a trademark and the attention it creates. Hence there's announcement after announcement, 'offers' to the community, slight stabs at the competition that are guaranteed to provoke arguments ("Workbench 5"?) and attempts to create a bit of a hype ("photos of our factory", "cooperation with disney").

The worst thing that can happen to them is that their 15 minutes of fame are over before they have a product. Hence they need to make as much noise as possible. Yes, the 'haters' love to bash them, endlessly. But why don't you ask CUSA to shut up until they can deliver?

I am well aware of CUSA's past transgressions and mistakes. The previous actions of CUSA don't justify the continuing crap that is posted here EVERYDAY! Grow up!

Why "past" mistakes? In this very thread, Barry makes outrageous (i.e. mostly bogus) claims about what trademark he owns and tells us that he is now "entitled to enforce the Amiga trademark IP". That's the kind of stuff that generates heated debate - which is exactly why digitex posted it here. And he's doing that after telling us for a year that we're not his target audience anyway.

That's happening right now, why are you talking about "previous actions"?

[Darrin]

Originally Posted by amigadave

And what facts would those be?

Thank you for confirming the problem.

The facts have been "in your face" since they first appeared and yet you can't acknowledge them.

I'm beginning to worry that this level of ignorance you display is deliberate. Would you mind clarifying your relationship with C-USA just to put my mind at rest? Are you in regular contact privately with C-USA staff? Are you therefore actually assisting them on the forums?

I am just commenting on what I see as destructive to this forum site and as far as I can tell, the CUSA haters are doing more harm than good. In fact, CUSA wouldn't get half the attention it does here if it weren't for the children that can't control themselves and feel compelled to comment negatively in every thread that even mentions CUSA instead of just letting the topic scroll into oblivion where it belongs.

There you go again. What are these "C-USA Haters" you speak of? I think you mean the victims of personal attacks by C-USA or those who dare to point out any irregularities in their posts.

Who is pulling your strings?

I am well aware of CUSA's past transgressions and mistakes. I am more keenly aware of the constant stream of whining and childish behavior that goes on here in opposition to CUSA.

Yet you ignore the "constant stream of whining and childish behavior that goes on here" by C-USA staff. Why is this?

The previous actions of CUSA don't justify the continuing crap that is posted here EVERYDAY! Grow up!

I suggest you grow up little man. What's your agenda at AmigaWorld.net? Looking forward to banning me there?

You insult us by calling us "children" and "haters" while your master laughs into his wallet.

Don't try and take the moral high ground, you're 6' under and still digging.

[jorkany]

Originally Posted by amigadave

I am afraid we are horribly outnumbered though and no one will listen to reason, unless the silent majority start chipping in and asking for the disruptive dozen to cool it.

So your line of thinking goes something like this: "Not enough people posting agree with me, but of course I'm right so there must be more people who don't post who agree with me than those who do post"

There is no "silent majority".


@Darrin,
After reading some of Amigadave's more recent posts I think he's just some kind of control freak - and I don't mean self-control.

[Darrin]

Originally Posted by jorkany

So your line of thinking goes something like this: "Not enough people posting agree with me, but of course I'm right so there must be more people who don't post who agree with me than those who do post"

There is no "silent majority".


@Darrin,
After reading some of Amigadave's more recent posts I think he's just some kind of control freak - and I don't mean self-control.

I do worry at times.

I know I went through my more "militant" phase many years ago (the less said about my posts on ANN the better), but, as you point out, this whole "I'm right and everyone else is a ****" attitude sucks.

You post here a lot and I don't agree with everything you post, but you'll be hard pushed to find me attacking you for it because you state your position quite clearly and back it up with your personal opinions.

Dave's one-sided attacks on "haters" just because they disagree with his personal agenda is a worrying stance for a would-be moderator to be taking. It's a shame, because Dave is a really nice guy on other subjects (probably because I don't disagree with him on other subjects).

[amigadave]

Originally Posted by jorkany

So your line of thinking goes something like this: "Not enough people posting agree with me, but of course I'm right so there must be more people who don't post who agree with me than those who do post"

Wrong! I am not trying to prove who is right and who is wrong on the topic of is CUSA good or bad for our community. I am just sick of all the hate mail that gets posted here and wish that it would stop so more productive things could be concentrated on instead. I guarantee that if the attacks and snide remarks and bad jokes about CUSA were aimed at any other company or person, they would most likely not be tolerated here or on any other forum site, but because it is about CUSA and Barry, it has not been challenged by more than a few people and the only reason I challenge it is because it does nothing positive for this community.

The CUSA haters can go on hating all they want, but do they have to share it here on this site every day? According to them CUSA should not even be talked about here, as it has nothing to do with the "Real" Amiga heritage.

There is no "silent majority".

I disagree. I believe that there are very many members on this site that do not post their opinions because they do not wish to suffer the wrath of the few most vocal members who are so experienced at tearing apart other's posts and ridiculing people in public. I am not afraid of speaking my mind when I think something is wrong. You don't have to agree with me, but I also do not have to stop voicing my opinions, just because you make disrespectful assertions about my character or my personality. I try not to attack people, but I do attack some of their behavior, when I think it is wrong.

@Darrin,
After reading some of Amigadave's more recent posts I think he's just some kind of control freak - and I don't mean self-control.

If you want to get into a discussion about lack of self control, there are many other members here you should include (and maybe look in a mirror).

You will be happy to know that I have had enough of this topic, so will probably not be responding to much after this post. It is a waste of my time.

[EDanaII]

Originally Posted by commodorejohn

Look, I'll agree with the premise that some of the CUSA haters overstate the case. But it's not as though there aren't grounds for grievance. The whole ideological issue of putting PC clone parts in a reproduction case and selling it as the same thing (oh, sorry, the same thingx) or a successor to/revival of is a touchy subject to begin with,

And I'm one of those people. I have stated repeatedly, that if they don't produce something Amiga-like then don't call it Amiga. But here's the difference between myself and some others: it bothers me. It doesn't anger me, it only bothers me, therefore, I'm not going to blind myself with hatred over their actions.

And why does it only bother me instead of anger me? Because it's a damned computer we're talking about. CUSA isn't killing babies. They're not raping virgins. And they didn't poop on the Pope. They're doing nothing more than borrowing another computer's name.

I'll say it again: I don't like it. I wish they'd pick other names, like the Commodore Colt or the Commodore CBM or something. But the anger directed towards them by many is simply ridiculous and out of proportion to the act.

and the fact that the company's response, as expressed by both its key members, is "you're stupid for disagreeing, also I'm going to call you a loser for even caring, now kiss my feet, peons" didn't help things one bit.

Which I chalked up to simple human failings and then let go... especially now that they appear to be willing to win some community support with their so-called challenge. I'll reserve damning them for their "challenge" WHEN they actually do (or don't) produce something.

And add to that the generally lackluster design and ridiculous pricing of the actual product, and a whole host of claims by the company that turned out to either be exaggerated or wholly false but have been consistently ignored in discussion with company representatives...this might be "human failings" in a dictionary-definition sense, but unless you have some plan for replacing Barry and his underlings with robots, human failings = failings in a company made up of humans. It's not just some little handful of foibles, it raises some pretty serious questions about the company as a whole.

What? Like they're the first? Name a company, any company, and I'll bet you GOOD money they've done just as many (maybe even more) stupid things. Here's some reading for you: The 11 Biggest PR Disasters Of 2011. Many businesses have screwed up in the past and are still thriving despite their mistakes, mostly because they took the time to learn from them. CUSA can too.

And, once again, CUSA appears to be doing just that with their so-called "Challenge." And the fact that they puts some constraints on that challenge (6 months) suggests to me that they may be learning from their mistakes. They are, one, engaging the community like many of us have already suggested they should, and, two, with that constraint, recognizing that not everything the Community wants is doable.

It's their bet two win or lose and if they botch it, then the haters have every right to laugh. But the haters want to hate, forget reason, proportion and restraint... it will get in the way of hating.

No, because he's being (diplomatically speaking) a smarmy, obnoxious twit about it.

And so is everyone arguing with him. Which is why the moderates should do their job and moderate. Their is no "innocent" party here and the mods need to get it under control. Period.

That is, admittedly, a subjective judgement, but subjective judgement is exactly what mods are for, otherwise you could run a forum based on a set of sophisticated word filters. Lots of forums allow moderators to hand out cooldown temp-bans when a member is being annoying but not warranting a more serious mod action.

Yes. And their are still two sides causing trouble here. And both sides need to cool it. And the moderators need to moderate.


@ J-Golden:

Dammy is not. Most of the comments on the post CUSA put up about this offer were neutral (read wait and see) to mildly positive. Instead of trying to help rally support to this new proposition, Dammy instead attacks and demeans people. He refused the fact that some of the negatively minded people were getting warmed over by this new move and continued to call other members out for past posts. All this does is cause unneeded contention and hurt CUSA's cause rather than help.

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. I'm reminded of the parent with two children: one constantly aggravating the other until the second child hits the first. The first then calls out "Mom! He's hurting me!" Most parents would punish both children. The first for being a turd and the second for reacting to the turd.

Two sides are involved here, not just one. And both need to be dealt with.

[amigadave]

Here is a good example of why I am trying to work against all the fighting that goes on at several Amiga forum sites:

(Quote for another site, but pertinent to the recent discussion in this thread)

Good post!

I am software developer.

I started developing software for VIC20 1982nd The following year I went over to the C64 and 1986 for the Amiga. Unfortunately, it took out in 1994 when I rely on a market for my software. 1994, I went over to Windows. Did not like it but it was necessary, unfortunately. 2005, I lost my Amiga.

I started programming in Basic, built for the VIC20 and C64. When I went over to the Amiga I started with amiga basic but soon went over to HisoftBasic and thence to the SAS C.

In Windows, I started with Symantec C / C (C-section) but in 2000 I went over to LccWin32 and there I am still (an incredibly good programming tool, despite a few bugs).

I have more software on my computer for the Amiga, but can not get them online because a PC can not read Amiga floppy disks (I'm looking for an Amiga on ads).
I have several PC software (some can be downloaded from the web). Right now I develop an accounting software for small businesses (the beta version can be downloaded free).
I have also developed a library that makes it incredibly much easier and faster to develop software for Windows on more than 800 functions (the library can be downloaded free).

If I go back to the Amiga with the development of software must have an Amiga market, unfortunately it does not have it today. The market is much smaller now than 1995 and less all the time.

The reason that it will be less need to be removed!

There are several reasons:
1 - Amiga community sticking to too many different directions.
2 - Acceptance of new ideas within the Amiga community is very poor
3 - Acceptance of new entrants may be likened to a declaration of war
4 - Amiga Community seems to be more and more a forum for complaining against each other. Those who complain are in minioritet with enough of them to not feel welcome in the Amiga Community forums.

For the New Year, I wish the Amiga Community all the best and that the four problems above eliminated during the year.

Happy New Year and good continuation!

IMO, Points 2 & 3 are a direct reference to the refusal to accept any news regarding CUSA without repeated childish remarks flooding the thread.

IMO, Point 4 is directly related to all the rest of the fighting and name calling that goes on to often here and at other Amiga forum sites.

My arguments and opinions are just an attempt to reduce this behavior, so it does not have this effect on potential users and developers who might consider returning to the Amiga.

[Duce]

Dave, with all due respect - your "point 2" on your post that people not warming up to Commodore USA is part of the problem is just silly. C-USA is a non-player in the market. Love them or hate them, they are not doing jack for Amiga at the moment. "Acceptance of new ideas" is one thing - but Dave, they sell commodity hardware running Linux. If you or anyone else wish to dub COS Vision and Atom boards as the best things ever, fine - but it's Linux and x86, Man. And PC components in custom cases. There is no "new idea" to accept from them with what they have on the table and how it affects "Amiga" atm, sorry. If you like retro cases running PC guts, visit their website and pick up one of their systems - but it isn't an Amiga, nor is it even a C64. It's a commodity x86 PC, same thing I am typing this post on right now.

Saying the lack of acceptance of C-USA's media blitz and how differences of opinions are cancerous to the scene, and how the Amiga community has not embraced C-USA is somehow hurting the Amiga scene is preposterous. If you are of the ilk that will say that they shouldn't be questioned based on past actions when they bring offers and challenges to the table for the community, that such questions shouldn't be asked, that we should just file in and fire off $500 each, we're really on different planets here.

As for point 4, you call it infighting - I call it spirited debate. I don't agree with you, you might not agree with me. It's the internet. Anything you or anyone else says on forums has zero bearing on how much I enjoy my Amiga IRL. I'm a big boy, I can handle it without screaming for more moderation and claiming the world is falling apart because we can't all agree. The internet isn't "serious business requiring order and control", and opinions don't mean a darned thing as to how a guy enjoys his hobby. Questions can be asked, debates can be had, all in a civil fashion.

They are a commodity PC vendor selling Linux based systems in custom cases, and aren't billing themselves as anything else. How they apply to anything "Amiga" at this point is beyond me. How C-USA offers anything to this guy that is complaining about being forced to now code for commodity/Windows boxes while he'd rather be coding for Amiga/Commodore is also beyond me. He has more choices of Amiga flavors than he ever had in the C= days - Morph, OS4, AROS, or even legacy via old HW or UAE/Amithlon. MorphOS being dirt cheap to get into, and AROS and UAE solutions being free or next to free.

As for the original poster of that list, there's still plenty of life left in the Amiga, whichever route you go (OS4, MOS, AROS, Legacy), but it's never going to be anything more than a hobbyist platform. Once again, I'll give props to the guys doing the Natami, FPGA solutions, and the good folks behind things like UAE and Amikit. Guys out there getting their hands dirty for little or no profit.

PS: Weren't you the guy called out for being abhorrently hostile towards everyone when some Amiga event IRL in your area didn't turn out as expected, you essentially calling the community useless? Please correct me if I am wrong.

EDIT: Yeah, you are - sorry I bothered. Same guy that played Security Force and venturing into weird stalker territory to a bunch of people openly discussing copyright means, and berating people for choosing to keep their day jobs and feeding their kids vs. going to conventions for a computer that was last made in the 90's.

http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthre...859#post666859
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=59513

[SysAdmin]

[paolone]

Originally Posted by EDanaII

And why does it only bother me instead of anger me? Because it's a damned computer we're talking about. CUSA isn't killing babies. They're not raping virgins. And they didn't poop on the Pope. They're doing nothing more than borrowing another computer's name.

The bold idiom sums up what I think, every time I see people getting upset about this subject...

[cgutjahr]

Originally Posted by Transition

???

Is there any particular reason to bump this flame fest?

Your job as a site owner is to keep the site peaceful - that's what amiga.org used to be about. Stop trolling please.

[SysAdmin]

@cgutjahr

Thanks for your feedback, it helps us improve the site.