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Old 12-20-2011, 09:14 PM   #81
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

The Amiga was wonderful for hardware reasons. Even today, I STILL get a thrill from the results of the original design, and would love to see it extended further.

The only Amiga hardware I am currently waiting for is Natami. I love the concept, I wish another company/party/group had already done it years ago.
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Old 12-20-2011, 10:33 PM   #82
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

I strongly encourage everyone to save their money and not bother even discussing anything surrounding a prepay scheme.

This is a waste of time - and potentially harmful.

I am sick of these types of people in our community and I have zero respect for this type of charade.

CUSA - go away, period. Shame on you.
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Old 12-20-2011, 11:05 PM   #83
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

I'd also like to see a Natami or other advanced FPGA type Amiga that brings all the modern conveniences and a bit more more power inside an A1000 case replica, with an Amiga A5000 label on it. It would probably have to ship with classic OS, but long term I might be interested in seeing OS 4.x back ported to it, or likewise AROS 68K might make sense there too, if classic OS is a dead end to continue.

Then in another 3 or 5 years or whatever I'd like to see a refresh using newer more powerful FPGAs that sees an A6000 model brought out, and so on. Meanwhile hopefully both OS and applications have progressed a bit in that time too.

For me I don't see the point in incorporating PPC tech as it doesn't mean much to me in the history of Amiga and seems like a dead end anyway. I've come to terms that we'll probably never see the Amiga OS with proper features like memory protection, SMP, etc., that make it worthwhile running on cutting edge hardware (AROS can try for this anyway it's already on cutting edge hardware). I'd like to see the 68k architecture and the chipset extended and added to as a natural progression, while retaining compatibility with 68k Amiga software. I do realize we'll be 10 to 20 years behind the tech curve but that's OK.

I don't really care who develops or sells it as long as it gets done. If CUSA has some assets and ability to bring hardware, brand, and OS people together great, because nothing much seems to be happening otherwise. I wouldn't be one of the 500 people on a preorder though, I'd only buy this if it was already available and I felt like it that day. But of any Amiga hardware that was to come out, this is what I would buy.
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Old 12-20-2011, 11:19 PM   #84
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

How about one based on the Freescale (Motorola) Qoriq T5? That is a 64-bit PowerPC chip, 28nm process, integrated AltiVec and can have multicore support (up to 24 cores) > http://www.freescale.com/files/netco...et/QORIQOV.pdf

Last edited by Middleman; 12-20-2011 at 11:32 PM..
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Old 12-20-2011, 11:19 PM   #85
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

Quote:
Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post
Why would you start with the Linux kernel if you don't want Linux? It's not like it's made of unicorn concentrate or something.
I never inferred its anything magical!!

If you reread the post you quoted I gave the Linux kernel as an example. There are quiet a few alternative OS kernels that could also be used, any of the BSD's, QNX etc. The point is not to try and reinvent the wheel but use an existing OS kernel that can deliver all the hardware support that ANY modern OS should have ie. memory protection, SMP, etc. The kernel can then be used as a basis for an amiga like os, just like Amithlon runs 3.1 on a Linux kernel.

This is the only way move even think about developing an Amiga for the 21 century, OS4, Morphos and Aros will never (without serious investment) appeal to anyone who never owned a classic machine. And Natami whilst a cool piece of hardware is just a classic and should not be considered as a way forward, just a possible replacement for dead machines.

In all honesty after reading the posts in this thread the best thing CUSA should do is play the Bruce Banner walking away music, go their own way and leave the Amiga community to dream of past glories and what could of been.
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Old 12-21-2011, 12:24 AM   #86
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

Quote:
Originally Posted by gazgod View Post
I never inferred its anything magical!!
No, you implied it. He later inferred it. SCNR

(This post was written under the bad influence of Dr. Sheldon Cooper. Go complain at Warner Bros. Television if you don´t like it.)
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Old 12-21-2011, 01:08 AM   #87
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrellsl View Post
I disagree. The products that CUSA has delivered are real and it didn't take them 7 years. The Natami team hasn't delivered a single product and they won't even provide a release date for anything they are developing...
WRONG! Several Natami units have been shipped to developers already, read & see here. Also it's pointless trying to compare Natami & CUSA, another one has made REAL progress over time. I let you guess which one it is
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Old 12-21-2011, 01:52 AM   #88
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

A PC with Amiga stickers and you guys are effin' bedazzled.... it's like you are *running* the downhill.

CUSA was the final nail in the coffin I needed.

This is my last post on Amiga.org, so.. bye!
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Old 12-21-2011, 02:28 AM   #89
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

When I read this I have to answer. That is the same as saying Aros or Morphos or Amigaos are no new product, they are only extending 3.1.

That is simply wrong!

Natami (and other FPGA-Projects) are not using the old circuits and just add a little, they reimplement the behavior. From the view of OS and Applications there is no difference, but in reality it is complete new.
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Old 12-21-2011, 02:35 AM   #90
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

In other threads i reacted positive to the new offer of CUSA (even if there are still some doubts...) but when I hear "supporters" like you bashing on community projects I again start to doubt. If you want support by the community it would be better to be more politely. CUSA at the moment has nothing right now that justifies to stick "Amiga" on it. Have you read the reactions to the new "C64" in the web, they were devastating (and I do not speak of their own fan-website but from the public sites. So they need support and bad speaking of others (expecially when you obviously have not read much about that projects and no knowledge of hardware and concepts) will not bring much sympathie and no customers!
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Old 12-21-2011, 02:51 AM   #91
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

Quote:
Originally Posted by OlafS3 View Post
Natami (and other FPGA-Projects) are not using the old circuits and just add a little, they reimplement the behavior. From the view of OS and Applications there is no difference, but in reality it is complete new.
FPGA implementation is also a bridge to the future. It allows us to take the older technology (68K/AGA), enhance it (faster blitter ops, better speeds, more CHIP RAM, etc), and implement this onto a motherboard with more modern technology. This is the whole appeal to me. We aren't dumping the past to embrace the future, or living in the past by ignoring the future.

Take a Replay, implement a 060+ speed 68K CPU with AGA+ and RTG fully implemented in soft core. Now add to that the latest PPC CPU. Then speak to Hyperion and get them to add support for the Replay soft core, so that OS4 can run legacy programs as native apps under OS4.

Bingo! You have a modern machine, with a modern CPU, capable of running legacy apps natively (no emulation) at speeds hitherto undreamt of. Classic Amigans get the best 68K-style 'real' Amiga possible, and everyone gets the latest technology.
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Old 12-21-2011, 02:59 AM   #92
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

or just take Natami, there is already all in :-)
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Old 12-21-2011, 05:44 AM   #93
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

Quote:
Originally Posted by OlafS3 View Post
In other threads i reacted positive to the new offer of CUSA (even if there are still some doubts...) but when I hear "supporters" like you bashing on community projects I again start to doubt. If you want support by the community it would be better to be more politely. CUSA at the moment has nothing right now that justifies to stick "Amiga" on it. Have you read the reactions to the new "C64" in the web, they were devastating (and I do not speak of their own fan-website but from the public sites. So they need support and bad speaking of others (expecially when you obviously have not read much about that projects and no knowledge of hardware and concepts) will not bring much sympathie and no customers!
Was this comment aim at me? If so:-

I'm no CUSA supporter, I think their products and OS are laughable but if this offer is genuine then I'm offering my opinion of the only way forward that may offer a product that may placate the community whilst also offering a solution that could attract customers outside the current Amiga community.

I was not knocking any of the next gen solutions (I'm a registered Morphos user, have a dedicated Aros box and have owned OS4 twice (which I do think is ****)) or the Natami (hell I'll probably buy a Natami if they ever go on sale) but they are all limited by 80's API's and are not going to replace my Windows or Linux boxen EVER and all Migas are relegated to hobby computers in my shack.

I want to go back to the days that the amiga was the only machine I needed but without decent apps and/or the ability to easily port applications to it this will never happen.
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Old 12-21-2011, 06:11 AM   #94
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

then i must excuse me...

to the topic. No Amiga-System will again become mainstream (like at the beginning of the 90s). In best case sales are big enough for companies and individuals to create dedicated products (hardware and/or software). But to reach that case there must be interesting (obviously differentiating) products and more competitive prices.
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Old 12-21-2011, 06:15 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShapeShifter View Post
FPGA implementation is also a bridge to the future. It allows ...
Speaking of bridges to the future. :-)
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Old 12-21-2011, 06:27 AM   #96
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

Quote:
Originally Posted by OlafS3 View Post
then i must excuse me...

to the topic. No Amiga-System will again become mainstream (like at the beginning of the 90s). In best case sales are big enough for companies and individuals to create dedicated products (hardware and/or software). But to reach that case there must be interesting (obviously differentiating) products and more competitive prices.
I agree. The best we can hope for are some old users returning to the fold, and those interested in minority hardware/OS's picking one up. Wishful thinking would be some unification of the market, which is small, and split into even smaller camps.

I'm not sure CUSA are the company to do this. They have been actively antagonistic towards the Amiga communities in the past, and it would need a well priced item to attract the people I mentioned above. It would also need all our hardware/software guru's on board, some of whom they have pissed off.

An Amiga in a small cheap package like the 64DTV might be a better starting point.
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Old 12-21-2011, 07:38 AM   #97
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

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Originally Posted by OlafS3 View Post
then i must excuse me...

to the topic. No Amiga-System will again become mainstream (like at the beginning of the 90s). In best case sales are big enough for companies and individuals to create dedicated products (hardware and/or software). But to reach that case there must be interesting (obviously differentiating) products and more competitive prices.
I must agree. The only path to the mainstream I can see for Amiga would be one of the console manufacturers going for an Amiga OS, can't see that happening. I think Dreamcast 2 would be more likely, damn shame, but such is life.
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Old 12-21-2011, 09:05 AM   #98
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

Quote:
Originally Posted by OlafS3 View Post
to the topic. No Amiga-System will again become mainstream (like at the beginning of the 90s). In best case sales are big enough for companies and individuals to create dedicated products (hardware and/or software). But to reach that case there must be interesting (obviously differentiating) products and more competitive prices.
Oh, well said. We have to lose this idea that the only acceptable outcome is some kind of mythic return-of-the-king "retaking" of a market the Amiga never owned to begin with. Let's set our sights on something that can actually be achieved, and figure out where to go from there once that's done.

Quote:
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I agree. The best we can hope for are some old users returning to the fold, and those interested in minority hardware/OS's picking one up. Wishful thinking would be some unification of the market, which is small, and split into even smaller camps.

I'm not sure CUSA are the company to do this. They have been actively antagonistic towards the Amiga communities in the past, and it would need a well priced item to attract the people I mentioned above. It would also need all our hardware/software guru's on board, some of whom they have pissed off.
I dunno, maybe they could unify the community in the sense that they've pissed off pretty much everybody equally. You know, in the same sense that the Saxons unified the Britons.
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Old 12-21-2011, 09:25 AM   #99
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

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Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post
Oh, well said. We have to lose this idea that the only acceptable outcome is some kind of mythic return-of-the-king "retaking" of a market the Amiga never owned to begin with. Let's set our sights on something that can actually be achieved, and figure out where to go from there once that's done.
Right, stop that! We'll have none of this sensible thinking round here. This is an Amiga forum, we have no room rational thinking, y'hear?
Now can we please get back to talking about more normal things like beating Apple and Microsoft with a 68030?

Quote:
I dunno, maybe they could unify the community in the sense that they've pissed off pretty much everybody equally. You know, in the same sense that the Saxons unified the Britons.
Funny, that exact thought crossed my mind this morning too....
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Old 12-21-2011, 10:47 AM   #100
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

OK, a hardware development and limited manufacture proposal here, made to the entire Amiga community. Let's say the community is largely comprised of legacy 68K, OS4 PPC, MorphOS PPC, Aros (on a variety of possible hardware), 68K emulated UAE, 68K emulated Amithlon. And the FPGA 68K crowd (Minimig cores, upcoming FPGA Replay, and eventually Natami) Hopefully I have not left anyone out....

The community is so fragmented that I am not surprised by the variety of posts made so far, although Natami seemed to garnish more than a bit of popularity. So anyway from a hardware platform standpoint I would think that MorphOS should be immediately thrown out. Being that they have a more clearly defined and independent path moving forward. OS4 people might benefit from new hardware more than most provided it were more cost effective than current options. At 500 pieces however and the additional need to tweak the OS to run on it, this does not seem like a good fit. I do not see Aros benefitting from a 500 piece hardware release as standard x86 stuff alread exists-is cheap-and is fast.

That leaves maybe the 68K FPGA options but even this is not so simple. Building an AGA version of Minimig? FPGA Replay already has its own hardware so this proposal not useful there. Natami maybe but I have yet to hear of any Natami Team comments about this. Besides, they are still working at things and could always do a pre-order scenerio by themselves.

Or how about taking the legacy hardware replacement route? Similar to the A1000 reproduction motherboards that are out there. A board that a legacy 68k guy could dump his custom chipset out of his 25 year old leaky battery motherboard into and bolt right into his real Amiga thus keeping his quasi-original hardware alive? The designer of the A1000 board even has some nice little upgrades that could be integrated without really breaking the real Amiga hardware experience.

Or how about just doing some support hardware? Like a PS2 or USB keyboard in the Amiga format? This could benefit all of the community in this small way.

So not a real clear situation to me at this time. Speaking selfishly, I would love to have a brand spanking new A3000 motherboard to replace my creaky original. I dump the critical chips from my old board into the new one, maybe pick up some enhanced features like more ram or 040-060 cpu, blah blah, and I would be all set.
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