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Old 12-19-2011, 08:58 PM   #1
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Default Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

News from BigBentheAussie via amigaworld.net

Commodore USA has a final challenge for this community that could enable them to have a new Commodore AMIGA with absolutely any of the features they want. We are serious about this, and we hope you will also take this offer seriously too, and contribute positively to the fruition of the Commodore AMIGA dream.

Allow me to outline our final challenge to the community, and how we can work together towards a unifying goal.
I have a list of obligations for the parties.

1. The community must definitively decide, through polls or whatever, what exactly it wants a Commodore AMIGA from Commodore USA to be.
2. Commodore USA will build and/or sell all product/s that will bear the official Commodore AMIGA brand.
3. Commodore USA will sell the first batch of a particular product AT (THEIR) COST to pre-paid customers only.
4. A minimum of 500 customers must pre-pay the entire amount in an independent account at a trusted institution (at the community's discretion) for the project to begin.
5. Commodore USA will negotiate for all required technology, be it software or hardware, and such costs will be divided by the amount of customers in the initial batch. So the more that join in, the lower the overall cost.

6. Commodore USA will outline all the costs, in as much detail as they are able to, before any customers make payment.
7. Commodore USA is ONLY paid on completion of the work to the satisfaction of the 500+ first batch customers, when the final product is ready to ship.
8. On project commencement, Commodore USA will provide monthly project updates until completion.
9. If Commodore USA does not perform the required work in 6 months of the project commencement date, then the 500+ customers have the option to withdraw immediately for a full refund of their prepayment.
10. Commodore USA reserve the right to affix a margin, at their discretion, to future sales of the product/s, past the initial batch.
11. The community will nominate two independent representatives or leaders who will liaise more closely with Commodore USA and report back to the community.
12. Sometimes negotiations require an NDA, that would limit public consumption of exact costs. In such circumstances that an NDA is required, the two nominated representatives of the community, who will also be under NDA, can independently verify such costs.
13. There will be no advertising of the product or its components by Commodore USA until project commencement.
14. In the meantime, Commodore USA will potentially continue with its current x86 based Commodore AMIGA plans, that will co-exist with the community's desired Commodore AMIGA branded product/s.

Warmest Regards,
Leo Nigro
Chief Technology Officer
Commodore USA, LLC
lan@commodoreusa.net
www.CommodoreUSA.net
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Old 12-19-2011, 09:29 PM   #2
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

Is he serious? Just in case he is, here's a 100% serious answer:

This "Numiga" project or whatever it winds up being called should be 68k-based. Whether that means an FPGA reimplementation like Natami or if there's some particular ColdFire model that doesn't have the existing ColdFire incompatibilities, or even a plain-old-silicon 68k CPU, I don't care. Just give me an 030/040 with an MMU and FPU running at a peppy clock speed.

It should feature audio and video hardware designed in the spirit of the Amiga chipset, i.e. providing capability through general openness and flexibility. I'm not going to get anal about whether it's truly custom or simply an array of existing parts, as long as it provides a similarly flexible-but-friendly approach to use. An OCS/AGA compatibility mode would be ideal, but if that's not possible, then it can be done in software, I guess.

It should not simply be "a Linux box." If CUSA is (as I've heard) legally prevented from bundling AROS with an "Amiga" branded product, they should at least provide the AROS devs with full hardware documentation so it can be easily ported, and direct buyers to check it out on their website and in the manuals (to whatever extent this is legally feasible.)

Above all, it should not be either a PC clone or an attempt to be a "modern" non-PC clone that puts keeping up with the Joneses ahead of being an interesting, elegant, and affordable system.

Give me something that fits those criteria, and I'll be first in line. I mean that.
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Old 12-19-2011, 09:37 PM   #3
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

Pretty much was going to be my response. I'd like to see all that jammed into an original A1000 case. A1000 keyboard and tank style mouse could be wireless too. CF and SD card slot could be hidden discretely behind a panel, where the 1050 normally sat.
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Old 12-19-2011, 09:46 PM   #4
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

Make something that runs AmigaOS natively. (3.x or 4.x to be decided)
Otherwise someone please point to me to the bounty that helps make this all stop.

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Old 12-19-2011, 10:04 PM   #5
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

Can be any hardware or software or combination.
All money is held in escrow until project completion.
We do not see a cent until completion.
We will cost the project, and negotiate with any parties relevant to the product.
No one pays anything until they agree to the cost.
If you want to lower the cost, pick something relatively easy or realistic...or get more people in the initial batch....which must be a minimum of 500 customers.
Any further development or funds required to bring the project to fruition will be part of the costs.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:05 PM   #6
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

Nice thought on Leo's part, but it will never happen. Who in this community thinks that there are 500+ members left that can;

A. Agree on the specifications, both hardware and OS for such a new Amiga that does NOT conflict with the legal agreement with Hyperion that prevents Amiga Inc. or any of it's licensee's from selling Amiga branded computers that run AmigaOS1.x to 4.x.

B. Are willing to pre-order such a system from a company that most of the remaining Amiga community dislikes (big under statement).

C. Believes that CUSA has the ability to produce a new system within 6 months (or 6 years) that will meet the demands of these remaining Amiga enthusiasts.

If there are 500+ current, or former Amiga users that can agree on a design that could be put together in 6 months and there was some way around the legal problems of having the Amiga computer name tied to any AmigaOS, or Amiga-Like OS, maybe something could be done.

The only way I could see this working would be some kind of partnership between CUSA & Hyperion, or if CUSA could fund and produce the Natami project without running into any legal problems from Hyperion, perhaps by selling it without any OS, or if the lawyers could make it work with AROS68k without violating the agreement between A Inc. & Hyperion.

I would love to see something happen, as any new Amiga development that raises the awareness of the Amiga and also meets the expectations of at least 500+ current and/or former Amiga users, would be a good thing.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:08 PM   #7
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

Don't worry about the Hyperion agreement so much.
If it is relevant to the product, then there will be negotiations with the relevant parties to determine the cost to the project.
If it is too much, then the community could opt for the second most desirable product, until they settle on something in the realm of the possible.
Assume anything is possible....and we will go see if it is....and get back to you.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:10 PM   #8
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

Been a long time since I've logged on here, but I'm pretty much with Plaz on this: give us something either 68k-based or PPC-based, capable of running real, actual AmigaOS, not some kind of AmigaOS-lookalike running on top of Linux on an x86 like your PC64 is to the old C64. Maybe hook up with the makers of the NatAmi and make an A1000 and/or A1200 replica with that in it, or get with Hyperion and work on getting a variation of what will be going into their upcoming Amiga netbook, but with an A1000 or A1200 replica wrapped around it, or some other kind of desktop machine with one or the other of those in it. Heck, do both a NatAmi version AND a version with the Amiga Netbook mobo in it.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:18 PM   #9
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

Another thing to consider.

For myself, as someone who has ordered a "First Contact" X1000 system and someone who already owns several Amiga computers made by Commodore as well as several MorphOS compatible computers that are fast enough to run it very well, I am about done with purchasing any kind of hardware for my Amiga hobby and general computing needs.

With the many hardware choices we as a small community now have, I wonder how long it will take for many other Amiga users like myself to reach the same point that I am at, and there may be a drop off of new (and used) computer purchases by the people of this community.

I mean, once most of us that are interested in new Amiga and/or Amiga-Like computers buy one or two, aren't we going to stop buying hardware for a few years?

Unless new hardware comes out that is so much better than what we already have bought, why would we continue to buy more of the same with only a small increase in clock speed? We are not typical PC buyers who will be willing to spend $1,000 to $3,500 every 2 or 3 years, (are we?).

I know that after I get my X1000 for running OS4, coupled with my dual 1.42GHz G4 PowerMac & 1.67GHz G4 PowerBook for running MorphOS, I will only be interested in better software for a long time.

Maybe I am wrong and there will be a sustainable market for new Amiga, AmigaOne systems for many years to come. Prove me wrong.

Edit: Thanks for the quick clarification BigBen. I for one do appreciate the possibility, even though I know it is an outside chance that anything will come from it. I give you and CUSA credit for at least trying.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:32 PM   #10
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

Personally, my first choice would probably be a partnership with the guys doing the Natami, as I have pretty much already decided to purchase one of those in the future as my next Amiga hobby purchase (and probably last in a long time).

A Natami in a retro A1000 case design would be awesome. I like the idea of the front panel where the memory cartridge fit in the A1000 opening for CD/DVD & memory card device access by flipping it down. Another neat design feature could be to have the top of the retro A1000 case flip up like a laptop, to make it a compact home computer design with the keyboard below in the "garage" and the monitor hidden while not in use. Sort of a desktop design that was as compact as a laptop, but not battery powered. A Natami Laptop would also be a fantastic idea to make happen.

In other words, Leo, join with one of the existing Amiga projects, such as Natami, Hyperion & OS4, AROS, or MorphOS (even one of the FPGA products, like the MiniMig, or FPGA Arcade Replay, or the Clone-A from Individual Computers), instead of splitting the community even further with yet another hardware choice.

The community is already too fractured. We do not need yet another division of this tiny community.

Edit: I am sure you could get 500+ pre-orders for the Natami within 3 to 7 days from announcing that you would be producing it. There are a lot of people watching that project and saving their money to spend on it. Ask A-Eon and AmigaKit how long it took them to fill their pre-orders for the X1000 and you will see how much interest there still is in this community and that is for a top of the line (read somewhat expensive) Amiga alternative.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:46 PM   #11
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

The "final challenge" statement is patronizing from a company that's already made a whole hell of a lot of promises that were never reached, with PR that is beyond abhorrent, not to mention outright lies. People I would not trust even if they were giving away super products, nevermind them making statements like "prepaid" this or that.

I'll support the NatAmi and FPGA Arcade guys directly, as well as the Morph and OS 4 guys, I'm afraid.

Fool me once, shame on me, etc... Good intentions paved the road to hell, etc... - and all that old cliche nonsense.
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Old 12-20-2011, 12:14 AM   #12
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

Work out an agreement with the Natami project so folks can get that in a properly branded Amiga case.
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Old 12-20-2011, 12:23 AM   #13
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

Myself, I just need something that runs AmigaOS, preferably 4.x.
But....
1) If you think I'm going to trust any preorder money to a company that has a reputation for lying, and a CEO who thinks that it's ok to post personal emails publicly to a forum as a tit-for-tat retaliation..... Er.... no. You may have a decent name but that doesn't mean anything.
2) Any answers from the Amiga community are going to require a lot of technology. Who will be working on it? We're talking a load more than just a reskin here.
3) We've been told repeatedly that we the community don't matter to them. So why this?
4) Is this really C=USA asking (who I don't trust *at all*, or Leo Nigro, who I do trust and respect?

If this is a genuine statement from C=USA then great, but if they want to work with the community they have a LOT of reparations to make first.
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Old 12-20-2011, 02:36 AM   #14
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

@CUSA

We the Amiga community, users and hardware designers have take things in are one hands with the ongoing projects like FPGA Arcade, Minimig and Natami.
So we don't need you, after seeing what you have done with the x86 C64 project.
It's just making a quick dollar with nothing new under the hood.
I don't trust you with my money and will never buy stuff in advance from your company.
You do not even have the rights for the OS.
So why not supporting the ongoing projects and make some nice C= cases for the fpga arcade, Natami etc.
Otherwise leave us alone.

Just my opinion
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Old 12-20-2011, 02:45 AM   #15
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

Well, to put it simply, if you're going to put the Amiga name on a computer, make sure it ACTUALLY IS an Amiga (sorry for the shouting, but that needed to be shouted ...). Don't offer me a Linux PC running UAE - I can do that without CUSA's help.

I could also build a PC running AROS myself, but I'd consider that a legitimate use of the name.

What I'd like to see is - a Natami, a Replay-based computer running the AGA Minimig core (yes, I know it's not finished yet ...), an AROS based PC, something that runs MorphOS ...

But, most of all, I want a computer that runs OS 4.x. Admittedly, I'll be getting one soon - I've pre-ordered an X1000.

If CUSA really want to impress me, what I'd really, really like Santa to bring me is an Amiga touchpad, and perhaps an Amiga phone - this would require that OS 4.x be ported to ARM, 'cos I don't think you'll find a PPC touchpad, let alone a PPC phone.

If you could work with Hyperion to bring Amiga OS to standard architecture and to ARM, that would be enough for me. That would be the best Christmas present of all.
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Old 12-20-2011, 03:10 AM   #16
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

Fcuk. Off.
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Old 12-20-2011, 03:14 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tension View Post
Fcuk. Off.

Straight to the point, not messing about!

I wonder how many people feel like you do...
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Old 12-20-2011, 03:22 AM   #18
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

I agree with the others. You've proven you can make quality cases, so teaming up with one of the FPGA based solutions (ie Natami) and delivering a nice looking case (A1/3/4000 copy, plus keyboard or case to house an a1200 keyboard) seems like a realistic and achievable project with a reasonable expectation to make your minimum order. Perhaps a changable rear plate could enable the case to be used for more than just the Natami.
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Old 12-20-2011, 04:24 AM   #19
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

Quote:
Originally Posted by TCMSLP View Post
You've proven you can make quality cases,
Have they? There seemed to be a lot of noise about people having overheating issues with their first attempt. Maybe they've learned from that however...

To answer the question: A machine which runs AmigaOS (with whatever CPU you like), and runs OS4 and 68k software 100% transparently. That doesn't mean skinned or adapted Linux running UAE instances in windows, but means AmigaOS running natively on the machine. Fully cohesive and transparent, just like OS X is (or was) with PPC software and OS4 is with 68k software. Keyboards are already available with Amiga keys so that's taken care of, but feel free to do your own take on them.

I'd buy one anyway once price and performance were reasonable.
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Old 12-20-2011, 04:39 AM   #20
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Default Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

@CUSA
Why not recreate the original A1200/A4000 boards for starters what commdorejohn has posted here, or make accelerators which would implement PPC upgrades to make use of AOS4.1. If you've proven you can do that, then what everyone else have said in this thread would follow suit.
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