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Amiga community support ideas This forum is for the open discussion of new thoughts and ideas intended to help the Amiga community. What do we need? What do we want?

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Old 08-17-2011, 08:56 AM   #21
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Default Re: Learn to program Amiga applications and games in #AmigaE

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Originally Posted by Amiga_Nut View Post
However we have also put together quite a sweet little algorithm for an 80s version of Oblivion style '3D' renderer too and may put this either into a 3D RPG
Well this makes me tingly with anticipation
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Old 08-17-2011, 02:40 PM   #22
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Default Re: Learn to program Amiga applications and games in #AmigaE

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And what exactly is wrong with object orientation?
My major gripe with OO is that it often leads to overdesign by implementing unused methods to make APIs complete, very long inheritance chains etc. OO seems to really get the worst out of (some) mediocre programmers.
And if you look how many times programmers still reinvent the wheel, OO has not fulfilled it's promise of code re-usability either. Don't quote me on it but I think I once read it is inherent with OO and that generic programming is more fit for that.

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Old 08-17-2011, 08:39 PM   #23
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Default Re: Learn to program Amiga applications and games in #AmigaE

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And what exactly is wrong with object orientation?
The fact that I got out of programming before it started, so I haven't used it.


My wife spent a fair amount of time programming OO code (in Windows.. I know, and I still married her... I'll get her using gcc on Linux yet!! :-), so I could always ask her for help.. ;-)

Might drive her crazy tho; as a programmer, I'm a great sysadmin.

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Old 08-18-2011, 11:08 AM   #24
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Default Re: Learn to program Amiga applications and games in #AmigaE

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@Thorham
OOP uses arrays of function pointers in order to implement inheritable methods. They make those methods have more calling overhead than ordinary functions. It's kind of like the way that the jump tables in shared libraries are slower than a normal function due to the calling overhead.
Yeah, I know, but I don't think function tables are a bad thing... at least not when calling overhead isn't very important.

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My major gripe with OO is that it often leads to overdesign by implementing unused methods to make APIs complete, very long inheritance chains etc. OO seems to really get the worst out of (some) mediocre programmers.
And if you look how many times programmers still reinvent the wheel, OO has not fulfilled it's promise of code re-usability either. Don't quote me on it but I think I once read it is inherent with OO and that generic programming is more fit for that.
Yes, but why blame oo for what people do wrong when using oo? It's like blaming your new, sharp knife for getting yourself cut. Would you rather have a blunt knife that doesn't cut well?

Another one is using the right tool for the right job. Using oo for everything is like a carpenter usinmg a hammer for everything. It's just not going to work.

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The fact that I got out of programming before it started, so I haven't used it.
Then read up on it. It's not very hard to understand and can be very useful sometimes (but not always).
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Old 08-18-2011, 09:18 PM   #25
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Default Re: Learn to program Amiga applications and games in #AmigaE

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Then read up on it. It's not very hard to understand and can be very useful sometimes (but not always).
I might, but with what I do, bash scripts (grep, sed, awk, etc) and sometimes perl and PHP handle most of what I need..
Sometimes I poke at C code..

But I'm thinking about it..

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Old 08-19-2011, 02:08 PM   #26
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Default Re: Learn to program Amiga applications and games in #AmigaE

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Well this makes me tingly with anticipation
We still have quite a way to go to be honest before anything is coded but I think it can be workable, if only on A1200 not A500. Think Forbidden Forest 3D in the style of Sega late 80s Arcade hardware.

We're really excited about both our games
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Old 08-19-2011, 04:50 PM   #27
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Default Re: Learn to program Amiga applications and games in #AmigaE

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Yes, but why blame oo for what people do wrong when using oo? It's like blaming your new, sharp knife for getting yourself cut. Would you rather have a blunt knife that doesn't cut well?
No, but maybe OO is a two sided super sharp knife and most people should stick to using a sharp single sided knife ...

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Old 11-09-2011, 05:01 AM   #28
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Default Re: Learn to program Amiga applications and games in #AmigaE

hi,

Is the courses done in #AmigaE being archived somewhere for off-line reading?
I also like to know what the best choice between ECX, and PortablE. (I plan to use it under MorphOS)
Is it possible to write inline PPC assembler with them? Who's generating the fastest code?
Thanks
Kamel

Last edited by kamelito; 11-09-2011 at 05:12 AM..
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Old 11-09-2011, 09:07 AM   #29
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Default Re: Learn to program Amiga applications and games in #AmigaE

I've started redoing certain aspects of the IRC sessions on ArosWorld.org in the PortablE forum. The first example I've done is the bitset inventory example which shows how to do a 64-bit bitset in PortablE.

I didn't archive anything offline but will be doing some of the same examples that I did in AmigaE and porting them to PortablE on the forum I described above.

It is undesirable to write PPC assembler in most compilers because the only inefficiency to be found in the existing compiled code is the cache loading optimizations. PortablE uses G++ (the C++ frontend for GCC) as its backend. It should generate clean enough code for most uses.

I forgot to mention that I'm putting the Sunday evening IRC sessions on hold for now. I'm tutoring a close friend in math at that time.

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Old 11-09-2011, 12:06 PM   #30
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Default Re: Learn to program Amiga applications and games in #AmigaE

It is true that many junior developers write OO code, especially in Java, that has overly long inheritance chains, but junior developers make all kinds of mistakes. This is simply one of them.

I program in C, C++, Objective C, Java, PHP, Python, and web (i.e. HTML/CSS/JavaScript). I do so for a living and am considered a senior developer by my peers. What does this mean? This really means that I've worked myself out of making many of the junior level mistakes when programming.

Are there better developers than me? Hell yes.
Do I see them often? No.
Do I crave to meet and learn from them? Absolutely

For example, Karlos is a developer that I have spoken to many times on A.org and his ability and coding level usually make my head spin. He is VERY talented. I love learning from him.

How does all this pertain to OO? OO is good when used right. It generally can be a slower implementation though because any time you make the language easier for humans it becomes a bit harder for the computer. Most modern OO languages make the safe assumption that you're using a modern computer with modern programming power and therefore this extra overhead isn't much of an issue.

OO features can be leveraged on slower machines without much of a slow down as long as you don't go overboard and objectify every single possible idea in your code. There is quite a bit of reuse of code in my experience with OO design. The problem is, fundamentally, trust. Most programmers don't necessarily give trust to others code so easily. When it comes time to use another person's code, there is often a sinking feeling (when source isn't available) that bottlenecks, problems and poor implementations come from this black box code.

The amount of time saved by using many C++ STL classes for things like vectors, maps and strings over reimplementing the same thing (over and over again) in C is amazing. If I am trying to eek out the most possible performance from a game on a limited architecture (such as say an Amiga), then using C++ STL classes would have to be evaluated on a case by case basis (and obtaining the most performance would likely mean not using them).

There are several other factors such as executable size and memory consumption to consider. Modern languages can well afford to trade speed of development for heavier usage cost because most modern computers have an order of magnitude (or more) more resources to use. Don't blame OO code because it's not well suited to a machine that was built before OO was a term, let alone a popular one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fats View Post
My major gripe with OO is that it often leads to overdesign by implementing unused methods to make APIs complete, very long inheritance chains etc. OO seems to really get the worst out of (some) mediocre programmers.
And if you look how many times programmers still reinvent the wheel, OO has not fulfilled it's promise of code re-usability either. Don't quote me on it but I think I once read it is inherent with OO and that generic programming is more fit for that.

greets,
Staf.
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Old 11-09-2011, 04:56 PM   #31
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Default Re: Learn to program Amiga applications and games in #AmigaE

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For example, Karlos is a developer that I have spoken to many times on A.org and his ability and coding level usually make my head spin. He is VERY talented. I love learning from him.
Karlos is by far a better programmer than I, and better chemist and musician too (we seem to have followed a similar life path in many respects)... But yet he can't come to terms with the beauty of Objective-C... That that forever will haunt him honestly I feel sorry for his affliction :-p
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Old 11-09-2011, 06:53 PM   #32
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Default Re: Learn to program Amiga applications and games in #AmigaE

It's a real shame you guys with years of programming experience don't actually code Amiga applications, the community would really appreciate it. I'm sure it wouldn't take you long, you guys seem to know so much. Is it because you have become so used to writing bloated code for modern systems that you don't think your brain could handle optimising the code for a low-end Amiga? Or is it because you're just greedy and only code for money? Where is your interest in Amiga now, other than posting like a bigshot on forums?
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Old 11-09-2011, 07:19 PM   #33
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Default Re: Learn to program Amiga applications and games in #AmigaE

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Or is it because you're just greedy and only code for money?

In my case yup, but not greed, necessity.
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Old 11-10-2011, 12:20 AM   #34
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Default Re: Learn to program Amiga applications and games in #AmigaE

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It's a real shame you guys with years of programming experience don't actually code Amiga applications, the community would really appreciate it. I'm sure it wouldn't take you long, you guys seem to know so much. Is it because you have become so used to writing bloated code for modern systems that you don't think your brain could handle optimising the code for a low-end Amiga? Or is it because you're just greedy and only code for money? Where is your interest in Amiga now, other than posting like a bigshot on forums?
In some respects you are right, but I can put it another way...

When I got my A500, I stopped programming my old Sinclair ZX81... I became used to the extra power the Amiga had and you could say my code became too bloated to run on the old Sinclair. Now we have computers that have more features and more power than the Amiga, as a programmer you want to play with the new toys, to experiment with new ideas and push the limits of what can be done... It is hard, though sometimes fun, to go back to the older machines and be limited by what can be done. Unfortunately there is a limit with any machine, and once you have explored that, it gets a little dull.

There is a little extra note for me through:
When I was younger, I used to dream of an Amiga 500 that I could carry in my pocket and take anywhere with me. Call me weird, but I wanted to run my software sitting in a forrest or by a river, there is a degree of freedom that is appealing... Modern smartphones give me that power and more... I haven't written anything for a desktop machine in years!

An interesting aside:
When my youngest brother asked me to teach him to program, I set up Blitz2 in UAE and gave him his first taste of code using the Amiga! Though we soon moved to JavaScript... Which actually gave him a better idea of modern languages and event based architecture. But the Amiga was a quick way to show him programming and get results, as you lose a 10year old very quickly if they don't see immediate results
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Old 11-10-2011, 03:38 AM   #35
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Default Re: Learn to program Amiga applications and games in #AmigaE

@Bloodline,

A bit offtopic but is your Iphone game doing well?
Kamel
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Old 11-10-2011, 03:42 AM   #36
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Default Re: Learn to program Amiga applications and games in #AmigaE

I'd love to start programming on the Amiga but I've not touched C in years (I'd be essentially learning from scratch) plus I've never used OO languages.

Thanks to Cammy's contagious enthusiasm I've started looking at AmigaE, but the PortablE compiler on the latest AROS/Icaros seems to be broken so even this hasn't got me very far.

The last real programming (excluding bash/perl) I did was on the Amiga/ST in assembly language some 15+ years ago. I also dabbled with Microchip PIC assembly a few years back - but a recent attempt at picking this back up has demonstrated how little I remember and how frustrating it is to 'start over'.
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Old 11-10-2011, 05:19 AM   #37
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Default Re: Learn to program Amiga applications and games in #AmigaE

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Or is it because you're just greedy and only code for money? Where is your interest in Amiga now, other than posting like a bigshot on forums?
What wonderful social skills you have.

Has it occurred to you that most people have real lives that take priority over the deluded fantasies of unemployed dreamers?
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Old 11-10-2011, 07:14 AM   #38
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Default Re: Learn to program Amiga applications and games in #AmigaE

Sorry if I touched a nerve, bigshot, but I figure if people have the time to waste boasting on forums about how good they are at coding they could at least find some time to put their money where their mouth is and code something once in a while, whether or not they live real lives or delusional fantasy ones.
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Old 11-10-2011, 07:36 AM   #39
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Default Re: Learn to program Amiga applications and games in #AmigaE

I'm not sure people were necessarily boasting (more discussing?) but Cammy makes a very good point ... we have some great talented people as part of the community but very few people willing to invest time to develop on the platform.

I know what it's like though - I commute 1.5 hours each way to a 9-5 job, so out of the house ~11 hours a day. The little time I do have I hit issues (like PortablE not working under Icaros) and the little time I have is wasted.

Such is life
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Old 11-10-2011, 08:09 AM   #40
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Default Re: Learn to program Amiga applications and games in #AmigaE

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Sorry if I touched a nerve, bigshot, but I figure if people have the time to waste boasting on forums about how good they are at coding they could at least find some time to put their money where their mouth is and code something once in a while, whether or not they live real lives or delusional fantasy ones.
Why should they?
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