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[Mizar]

I think he was talking to me :-). I have a CDRW drive in an external case hooked up with the Surf Squirrel SCSI.

Under what circumstances would the extra 4 pins on the HD IDE connector need a jumper?

Originally Posted by Daedalus

@actung_bab


Nope. 2 of my machines have IDE CD drives - one is a laptop drive taking power from the floppy connector and built into the wedge case, the other is a normal 5.25" CD-ROM drive from a PC, built into a custom case with the A1200 motherboard and a couple of extras. This is again powered from the floppy connector, and amazingly it all works, though it is at the limit power-wise.

[Franko]

@ Mizar

Glad it's not just me who's having trouble with some of these drive, reckon I may have found a solution though, gonna test it out today...

@ Daedalus

Nothing wrong with the tracks or the +5 volts, tested on 7 different motherboards and 5 different PSUs (even a PC one), been speaking with a guy who runs a factory where they recondition old HDs for re-sale and he's supplied me with a number of HDs to test from different manufactures...

Still reckon myself it's the IDE header on the MB not supplying enough current or a difference in the reset timing signals on some of them. I'll be testing out a few "solutions" today and hopefully I'll solve this annoying problem...

[Daedalus]

@Mizar
Oops Some drives have a size clipping jumper which make the drive appear smaller for compatibility with older BIOSes. One of mine for example is 120GB, but shows up as 32GB if you use a jumper. One could also be for master/slave use though this is less common in laptop hard drives, and they usually assume to be master.

@Franko
Hmmm... Like I said, very odd! I just can't see how you could have 7 different motherboards which all have issues supplying enough power unless there's something wrong with all of them...

Now that you mention it though, I have the reset line cut on all mine due to issues with the drive not showing up under some circumstances. It's so long since I had an issue that I'm not sure if they were spinning up or not, but cutting pin 1 on the 44-way cable has no negative effect on the drive and resolves issues with reset timing - especially in master/slave configurations.

[Franko]

@ Daedalus

Tried the cutting the reset line trick didn't work...

The guy I spoke to about the drive explained in detail about the differences in reset timing onboard the logic chips on 2.5" HDs between ATA-33, ATA-66 & ATA-100 types, but he's of the same opinion as me that it's the IDE header not being able to supply enough current to some of these drives...

So I'm going to splice some cables and take the +5V motor line from elsewhere on the Amiga MB first to see if that solves it...

PS: nothing wrong with any of the MBs they work fine with drives up to 6.5GB but anything 30GBs and over the drive doesn't even attempt to spin up.

Another reason that I believe the problem is with the +5v on the IDE header is that I can connect any size and type of 3.5" HD with a 2.5" to 3.5" cable and they all run fine whether there ATA-33, ATA-66 or ATA-100, simple reason for this is, the 3.5" drives need to be powered from a source other than the MBs IDE header...

[Mizar]

Franko:

I eagerly await your results of if your test gets your 2.5" HDs to work! x56h34 recently said a Seagate 80GB and Hitachi 40GB worked for him with only an A500 PSU. Have any of the drives you've tested been Seagate or Hitachi?

My more powerful PSU has 6.5A on the 5V line, 2A on 12V, and .5A on -12V (as compared to the A500 PSU is 4.5A on 5V, 1A on 12V, and .1A on -12V), yet it didn't spin up the WD 80GB one. I also have the 1230 accelerator card, a high density floppy drive, an external scan doubler, and Surf Squirrel drawing power from it. I wonder if it would spin up with those disconnected. How much current have you tested the HDs with so far?

Daedalus:

Have you checked what brand HDs you're using yet? If it's not a power issue, then maybe I should try either a jumper or cutting the IDE lead on line 1.

[Digiman]

Originally Posted by Franko

Doubt it, as they don't even spin up at all, tried various makes but all with the same result, any drives over 6.5GB just simply wont even attempt to spin up whether they're ATA-33, ATA-66 or ATA-100..

When my back heals I will test some to see if the spin up in my A600 for you.

[Franko]

@ Mizar

I've tried Toshiba, IBM & Samsung drives, as I say I've tested them with various PSUs including a PC one and on bare motherboard with absolutely nothing connected, all with the same results, no spin up...

I think myself the IDE header must have some sort of capacity limiting on it's +5v supply, just about finished making up a new cable to tap into the floppy drives +5V and I'm going to test it shortly, fingers crossed that it works...

@ Digiman

That would be great, especially if you can supply the make and model numbers you test... cheers....

[Franko]

Ok... I made a cable that supplied the +5V from both the internal floppy drive or from a external PC PSU. Results... still no spin up on any of the large capacity drives (30GB & 60GB) all other drives (6.5GB and under) worked fine with this cable so it's not anything to do with the motherboards IDE header not supplying enough current...

Here's a list of the 2.5" drives tested....

Toshiba HDD2181 MK3021GAS DMA/ATA-100 30GB
Result = No Spin Up

Toshiba HDD2183 MK6021GAS DMA/ATA -100 60GB
Result = No Spin Up

Toshiba HDD2134 MK4309MAT DMA/ATA-33 4.3GB
Result = Works 100%

Toshiba HDD2143 MK6411MAT DMA/ATA-33 6.5GB
Result = Works 100%

Toshiba HDD2145 MK8113MAT DMA/ATA-100 6.5GB
Result = Works 100%

IBM DKLA-54230 DMA/ATA-33 4.3GB
Result = Works 100%

IBM WDA-280 DMA/ATA-33 80MB
Result = Works 100%

So it doesn't appear to be a power supply issue and I had thought that it may be because the larger drives were DMA/ATA-100 but the Toshiba HDD2145 6.5GB drive is DMA/ATA-100 and works fine.

I'm at a loss here trying to figure out why these larger capacity drives wont even spin up, they've been tested with different MB revisions, different PSUs, different cables, tried cutting line 1 and very carefully checked all connections and MBs for faults, heck even tested them on totally bare motherboards all with the same result, no spin up...

Anyone out there any other suggestions or better still does anyone have the make and models of 2.5" HDs that are at least 20GB in size and that they have working on their set up...

[Mizar]

Franko:

Thanks for your thorough and scientific testing :-). All right, so we can rule out a power or master/slave issue.

That leaves the specific standards/modes, or brand of the drives, that must be the cause. The ATA-100 is the most current standard, I presume? Even though the one ATA-100 6.5GB drive worked, maybe there is something about the standard that only kicks in with double digit GB capacities, and causes no incompatibilities with single digit GB capacities.

You hadn't tried Seagate or Hitachi drives, so maybe the right brand can sometimes be compatible even with double digit size.

Or possibly there is some other difference with the big drives not present in smaller ones. Someone had recently mentioned spin speed as a factor. But I'm not sure how that would matter unless they required such a large startup current that the floppy and PC power supplies you tried still weren't adequate.

Those are all my ideas. So, it looks like I better get a less than double digit GB drive, or less than 30GB at least, if I want one that will spin up. Unless I can find a Seagate or Hitachi maybe :-). Or there's CF drives- I wonder if those work at 30GB+.

[psxphill]

Originally Posted by Mizar

Those are all my ideas. So, it looks like I better get a less than double digit GB drive, or less than 30GB at least, if I want one that will spin up. Unless I can find a Seagate or Hitachi maybe :-). Or there's CF drives- I wonder if those work at 30GB+.

I tried a 2.5" fujitsu 20gb the other day & apart from not booting from cold, it still spun up and booted if you reset the amiga. It's a pity kickstart doesn't check for a hard drive when the floppy animation is displayed (hopefully aros 68k will).

However the reason I tried it was my 3.5" drive wasn't working & I was trying to work out why. Eventually I tracked it down to the 2.5" cable from the a1200 to the 4xbuffered ide adapter. Although it worked sometimes with the 2.5" drive it never worked with the 3.5" drive. It was rather annoying tracking it down, because each part worked on it's own. I even connected the 3.5" drive to my pc using the 4xbuffered ide adapter and a 3.5" to 2.5" converter and that worked (and I could access it with winuae).

I ordered a flexible 2.5" cable from amikit. So far I've not twisted it, because the ends are connected differently to the original and it sits better if you don't twist it (the 3.5" cable is now folded however so I might have to deal with that next). But at least it's back working & wasn't something more serious.

So my advice if you're having problems is to try another ide cable.

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by Franko

Ok... I made a cable that supplied the +5V from both the internal floppy drive or from a external PC PSU. Results... still no spin up on any of the large capacity drives (30GB & 60GB) all other drives (6.5GB and under) worked fine with this cable so it's not anything to do with the motherboards IDE header not supplying enough current...

Here's a list of the 2.5" drives tested....

Toshiba HDD2181 MK3021GAS DMA/ATA-100 30GB
Result = No Spin Up

Wow, as it happens, two of my drives are Toshiba HDD2181s, and both spin up fine. Both are also running off standard A1200 PSUs, both also power a CD-ROM drive ad one has a Blizzard 1230IV installed. No power issues... The 3rd is a Western Digital Scorpio 120GB, WD1200B EVE, and as I said before, takes even less current than the smaller Toshibas. I also have a 60GB Travelstar in one but don't have that machine here to tell you the exact model. That one works just fine as well. And, I've managed to run a 40GB IBM Deskstar 3.5" off the standard PSU in one 1200, some manner of Fujitsu 10GB drive and others in the past. The only reason a drive hasn't spun up on me is because it was dead...

Franko, have you tried these drives in any other computers besides Amigas? I.e., are you sure they're not dead?

[Franko]

@ Daedalus

Now that is interesting that your HDD2181s work, I have been wondering if the drives themselves were in fact dead, I bought them from a member here and they were shipped from the USA to Scotland so I am now wondering if they have been damaged in transit across the pond...

Unfortunately I don't have anything I can test them in other than my Amigas, my sister & nephew who live close by wont let me test them in their laptops (they're the type of people who think opening up a laptop or adding things to it will break it... )

I really need bigger drives in my Amigas (even 1TB in my main towered A1200 is not enough for me these days) and tiny drives of 6.5GB are just no good to me. The guy whom I've been in contact with who runs an HD refurbishing company did mention he had Western Digital drives and IBM ones, I'll need to send him an email or phone him and see if he can let me test some of these types...

On a side note, I've even connected up a 200GB Western Digital 3.5" HD ATA-100 type directly to the Amigas IDE header using a 3.5" to 2.5" cable and drawing the power from the Amigas internal floppy PSU header and it runs fine...

So I think you may be right and these drives I've bought are as dead as a dodo...

[Mizar]

psxphill:

My last HD was a Fujitsu 1.5GB, but it was fast enough spinning up to work with a cold boot. The IBM HD I had before that was slower spin up, so I had to reboot like you're saying.

It doesn't appear to be any power issue, and there's a WD HD of the same model I tried (just different capacity) on Vesalia, plus Daedalus has the same model (just different capacity) working on his A1200. So I think you may be right it could be the IDE cable.

Daedalus:

Thanks for checking on your drives. That Western Digital Scorpio is the exact same drive I tried, just different size, the WB800BEVE 80GB. There's also a WB3200BEVE 320GB one listed on Versalia in the Amiga section. Yet the 80GB one didn't spin up at all. The drive was new, it's got to be compatible, the power has got to be sufficient, so I think it's got to be the IDE cable with the problem.

Quoting Franko:

> Using FastATA MKII and ATA3.driver Ver8.x, every drive I have tested (various sizes and
> manufacturers) up to 500GB all work perfectly at PIO4...

> Whereas with the 4xEIDE board on various set ups I've had quite a few problems trying to
> get them to recognise HDs bigger than 60GBs...

Franko:

This is from another thread to do with the A1200 IDE interface. I don't understand, you've been saying nothing larger than 6.5GB has worked, but here you're saying up to 60GB or 500GB works. Is this only with 3.5" drives, or because of an IDE enhancement board?

I'm noticing also, other users are showing 30GB+ drives they have working on their A1200. Such as: rvo nl, psxphill, and Daedalus. Were those Toshiba 30GB and 60GB drives the only ones you tested that didn't work?

Wow, what're you doing that 1TB isn't enough space?

I'd be interested to know if the Western Digital 2.5" HDs work for you too, if you test those.

[Franko]

Originally Posted by Mizar

Franko:

This is from another thread to do with the A1200 IDE interface. I don't understand, you've been saying nothing larger than 6.5GB has worked, but here you're saying up to 60GB or 500GB works. Is this only with 3.5" drives, or because of an IDE enhancement board?

I'm noticing also, other users are showing 30GB+ drives they have working on their A1200. Such as: rvo nl, psxphill, and Daedalus. Were those Toshiba 30GB and 60GB drives the only ones you tested that didn't work?

Wow, what're you doing that 1TB isn't enough space?

I'd be interested to know if the Western Digital 2.5" HDs work for you too, if you test those.

Firstly I have nearly 1 TB filled with 25 years of Amiga stuff, DVD ISO images of my favourite DVD movies, CD ISO images of my favourite CDs and I've only got about 180MB of free space left, so I'll need to get some bigger HDs for my towered A1200 pretty quickly...

Unfortunately the only large capacity 2.5" HDs I have are all Toshiba drives and the guy whom I can get more from only has Toshiba ones at the moment...

However all the other 2.5" HDs I've tested 6.5GB and under have been Toshiba, Western Digital, Samsung and IBM and all work fine...

Still can't figure out why others managed to get the same 30GB Toshiba ones to work as they were the exact same model numbers, surely all the ones I've tested can't all be dead...

I've tested them with both the 4xEIDE and FastATA MKIII interfaces and still not spin up...

Don't have any problems with 3.5" HDs though with any brand or capacity, all 3.5" HDs whether ATA-33, ATA-66, ATA-100 or ATA-133 all work 100%...

All my large capacity HDs I use up to 500GB are 3.5" types which as I say work fine no matter what model or brand I've tested but for my desktop A1200 I really want to use 2.5" HDs but 6.5GB is no good for the kind of use I have (really need 30GB drive to be of any use to me)...

I'm just waiting for the guy I know to get some other makes in instead of Toshiba drives to see if I can get them to work, it's really doing my head in, never been stumped like this before and I'm getting a wee bit peed of with it now, might just have to settle for low profile 3.5" HDs but I don't really want to...

[Retro_71]

Hi Franko/All when i get home i will try out 10,20,40,60,120,160,320GB and 1TB 2.5" on my A1200 but its a Rev 2 board, i know from previous times that the 10,20 and 40 worked without any problems. I am using a ATX to Amiga 1200 connector (from Amigakit) and the psu is a 300 watt one.

The drives are a mix of IBM, Toshiba, WD and Hitachi will post the model number as i test them.