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Old 01-03-2011, 02:24 AM   #21
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Default Re: Max hard drive size?

Quote:
Originally Posted by freqmax
Btw, SCSI read can handle 64-bit sector addressing.
Well, yes and no. Unless the ROMs in the later Amiga 4000T and A4091 were explicitly updated, SCSI on the Amiga would mean the WDC 33C93 chip which came on the A590, A2091, and Amiga 3000. This chip didn't support 16 byte commands, so it didn't support READ 16 or WRITE 16.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xerces8 View Post
By whom?
trackdisk64 does not count sectors.
RDB uses like 3x32 bits.
SCSI can handle loads of sectors, ATA also.
And SFS can also handle more.
So where does the limit come from?
The limitation comes from the fact that the size of the LBA (logical block addressing) fields supported by the most common SCSI chips in Amigas is 32 bits.

IDE is another issue. Since the Amiga doesn't have an IDE chip to speak of (all the work is done by the CPU), it's possible to support arbitrarily large IDE drives, but the ROMs definitely don't support booting anything beyond the first bit of a drive (how far? 2 gigs? 4 gigs? 8 gigs? 128 gigs?) While AmigaOS can't use space beyond 128 gigs on the IDE bus (I've tried), NetBSD has no limits:

Code:
wd0 at atabus0 drive 0: <ST32000542AS>
wd0: drive supports 16-sector PIO transfers, LBA48 addressing
wd0: 1863 GB, 3876021 cyl, 16 head, 63 sec, 512 bytes/sect x 3907029168 sectors
wd0: drive supports PIO mode 4, DMA mode 2, Ultra-DMA mode 6 (Ultra/133)
Get someone to update the IDE code, and you're all set!
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Old 01-03-2011, 02:37 AM   #22
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Default Re: Max hard drive size?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franko View Post
Also I wouldn't recommend making the WorkBench partition SFS (best to keep it as FFS) as if anything does go wrong there are not tools for SFS to repair things properly...
That's big nonsense IMHO.

1. the system benefits most if the boot partition has the fastest file system

2. the system partition can be recreated at any time from scratch because everything on the system partition is also contained on installation floppy disks and CDs.

The partitions with your creative work like artwork, self-made music, videos, saved games, documents, source codes etc. are the important ones which need to be kept safe and backed up regularly. The system partition is the least important part of a hard drive.

3. the system partition does not change very much. You can make a backup once after installation and if the partition dies, you can restore that one old backup and have everything back quickly. Just make sure that you've got a boot flopppy with all software needed to access the backup and the HDD.
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Old 01-03-2011, 10:40 AM   #23
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Default Re: Max hard drive size?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnklos View Post
The limitation comes from the fact that the size of the LBA (logical block addressing) fields supported by the most common SCSI chips in Amigas is 32 bits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piru View Post
Incorrect, it does not depend on the sector size. Amiga can only address 2TB with trackdisk64 and NSD.
These two contradict. (at least partly).
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Old 01-03-2011, 10:58 AM   #24
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Default Re: Max hard drive size?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xerces8 View Post
These two contradict. (at least partly).
No, they don't contradict. They state different reasons for the same thing. I can't say that I know enough about trackdisk64 and NSD, but it's perfectly reasonable to think that they don't necessarily support more than 2^32 blocks. The 64 bitness is certainly a reference to complete drive size in bytes.

It's entirely possible that both reasons are valid and true.
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:00 PM   #25
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Default Re: Max hard drive size?

Why do you guys need such large hard drives on an Amiga computer? Is it ego? The hard drives on my Amiga computers are 2 GB or less, and I have never filled one up. Now granted, most of my Amiga files and software are on CD-ROMs and ZIP-100s.

I do have to admit, my Workbench 3.9 systems do not get used as much as my Workbench 1.3 systems. I have found that the more you try to make an Amiga act like a modern PC, the less fun it is. 3 TB, lol. I am starting to get the feeling that many of you guys actually do not like the Amiga computer anymore, because you are trying to change it too much. My favorite Amiga models are the Amiga 1000, 500, and the 2000, because they are real Amiga computers. Starting with the Amiga 3000, Commodore starting changing the Amiga, for the worse. That was the beginning of Commodore's downfall and the death of the Amiga computer. The new machines were lower quality and suffered from many problems. Hell, the Amiga 4000 was not even finished yet and Commodore ordered its release. 3 TB , lmfao.

Last edited by Selles; 01-03-2011 at 12:11 PM..
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:03 PM   #26
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Default Re: Max hard drive size?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selles View Post
Why do you guys need such large hard drives on an Amiga computer? Is it ego? The hard drives on my Amiga computers are 2 GB or less, and I have never filled one up. Now granted, most of my Amiga files and software are on CD-ROMs and ZIP-100s.

I do have to admit, my Workbench 3.9 systems do not get used as much as my Workbench 1.3 systems. I have found that the more you try to make an Amiga act like a modern PC, the less fun it is.
well, sometimes its fun just to see what the upper limits are.
I use a 4 gig drive (flash card) and I can't imagine actually filling the thing
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:25 PM   #27
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Default Re: Max hard drive size?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selles View Post
Why do you guys need such large hard drives on an Amiga computer? Is it ego?
I can't speak for others, but I had a 2 TB drive in my Amiga 4000 because I use my Amiga to maintain backups of various sites, such as:

archive.info-mac.org
debian.lcs.mit.edu
ftp.apple.asimov.net
ftp.mayn.de
metalab.unc.edu
sunsite.unc.edu
www.aux-penelope.com

My A4000 is also an active Aminet mirror (us3.aminet.net).

Granted, my usage isn't typical, but it is interesting to learn the limits of older hardware as it helps inform the future. The fact that SCSI could support 2 TB drives back in the day when a large hard drive was 40 megabytes is pretty amazing.

There is such a concept as "enough". The 2 TB drive in my A4000 started showing issues after just a year of use, so I put it on the IDE bus and bought a hardware mirroring enclosure which has two 500 gig SATA laptop drives. With all of the archives in place, I'm using only 70% of the 500 gigs, so did I really need a 2 TB drive? No. Is it good to know that 2 TB drives will work? Certainly.
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:26 PM   #28
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Default Re: Max hard drive size?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selles View Post
Why do you guys need such large hard drives on an Amiga computer? Is it ego? The hard drives on my Amiga computers are 2 GB or less, and I have never filled one up. Now granted, most of my Amiga files and software are on CD-ROMs and ZIP-100s.
Availability.
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:35 PM   #29
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Default Re: Max hard drive size?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selles View Post
Why do you guys need such large hard drives on an Amiga computer?
Data storage.
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Old 01-03-2011, 02:18 PM   #30
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Default Re: Max hard drive size?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
That's big nonsense IMHO.

1. the system benefits most if the boot partition has the fastest file system

2. the system partition can be recreated at any time from scratch because everything on the system partition is also contained on installation floppy disks and CDs.

The partitions with your creative work like artwork, self-made music, videos, saved games, documents, source codes etc. are the important ones which need to be kept safe and backed up regularly. The system partition is the least important part of a hard drive.

3. the system partition does not change very much. You can make a backup once after installation and if the partition dies, you can restore that one old backup and have everything back quickly. Just make sure that you've got a boot flopppy with all software needed to access the backup and the HDD.
Well your entitled to your opinion but in my case its totally wrong...

1. FFS system is actually faster than SFS on my system partition mainly due to the fact the FFS accesses the thousands of small icon .info files faster than SFS can...

2. As for the system partition being easy to re-create easily at any time, wrong again in my case. As I use the System Partition for all of my program/executable files as well as the system stuff. All other partitions are used for data and nothing more...

3. Wrong again... my system partition is constantly changing as I write more progs or install new utils...

SFS is quite simply the best alternative file system for the Amiga user who requires access to large HDs and single file sizes greater than 4GBs. It may not be the fastest filesystem around but for reliability and almost unlimited large storage, it can't be beat...

I can say this with complete confidence as I've spent decades testing and benchmarking all of my various Amigas to get the best possible speed out of them. I would go as far as to say there won't be many folk out there with an Amiga set up quite like mine as it's is very customised and contains a lot of software & patches I have written myself that no one else has as I never released them...


@ Selles

Odd to call it ego because some of us have a lot of data & stuff on our HDs, If you can get by on 2GB of storage then good for you...

My 2 500GB HDs are both over 90% full of both Amiga & Non Amiga data not to mention all my other HDs which are almost full as well...

It's nothing to do with ego it's quite simply down to 25 years of collecting and gathering all sorts of stuff which need somewhere to be stored and have easy access to...

Last edited by Franko; 01-08-2011 at 11:20 PM.. Reason: Restored Post for continuity...
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Old 01-03-2011, 03:39 PM   #31
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Default Re: Max hard drive size?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnklos View Post
definitely don't support booting anything beyond the first bit of a drive (how far? 2 gigs? 4 gigs? 8 gigs? 128 gigs?) While AmigaOS can't use space beyond 128 gigs on the IDE bus (I've tried)
You need to update your scsi.device with latest aminet patches from Chris Hodges & company
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Old 01-03-2011, 03:45 PM   #32
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Default Re: Max hard drive size?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selles View Post
Why do you guys need such large hard drives on an Amiga computer?
Ham8 pr0n movies.


@Franko
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franko
I would go as far as to say there won't be many folk out there with an Amiga set up quite like mine as it's is very customised and contains a lot of software & patches I have written myself that no one else has as I never released them...
I bet you and Cosmos have fun patching stuff but be gentle with us and share some bits ;-)
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Last edited by Crumb; 01-03-2011 at 03:48 PM..
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Old 01-03-2011, 04:31 PM   #33
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Default Re: Max hard drive size?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumb View Post
I bet you and Cosmos have fun patching stuff but be gentle with us and share some bits ;-)
Id love to share my own hacked/rewritten version of the FastATA driver but as it's still owned by Elbox and not PD or freeware then sorry but I can't...
(I did email Elbox a long time ago about it, but never received any reply...)

Many folk have sent me PMs asking for my various patches that I have written but unfortunately they were written for my own particular Amigas hardware & software set up and unless you have a system identical to mine they most likely won't work...

Last edited by Franko; 01-08-2011 at 11:21 PM.. Reason: Restored post for continuity...
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Old 01-03-2011, 06:15 PM   #34
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Default Re: Max hard drive size?

I wonder if we can set up a bounty for Franko to write driver and such for us, since it is obvious that you know a few things about hardware and programming?
New scsi.device maybe????
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Old 01-03-2011, 06:30 PM   #35
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Default Re: Max hard drive size?

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Originally Posted by Retro_71 View Post
I wonder if we can set up a bounty for Franko to write driver and such for us, since it is obvious that you know a few things about hardware and programming?
New scsi.device maybe????
Gawd no... money's the last thing I need...

Often thought about it and actually started it, that's where the problem lies, I start to code something and think "hey that's a neat piece of code" then next thing I've started to use that bit of code to write something else altogether...

Or I disassemble something like the FastATA Driver, make it better and then can't share it with others cos it's still copyright and I'm the only one getting to use it...

Must have several hundred bits of software that I never got round to finishing...
!

Last edited by Franko; 01-08-2011 at 11:22 PM.. Reason: Restored Post For Continuity...
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Old 01-03-2011, 06:34 PM   #36
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Default Re: Max hard drive size?

awwwwwwww dang it!!
well then what about a scsi.device just for me ( promise not to give it to anyone.. (insert evil smile too).. )
That reminds me does anyone have the keyboard short cut for the emotes here???? (i meant for this site....... :P)
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Old 01-05-2011, 11:45 AM   #37
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Default Re: Max hard drive size?

I jumped through all kinds of hoops two years ago and I can't get my A2000 or A1200 to use more than 4 gig. My A2000 uses a GVP 040 with SCSI, and my A1200 uses IDE.
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Old 01-05-2011, 03:45 PM   #38
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Default Re: Max hard drive size?

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Originally Posted by KatManDEW View Post
I jumped through all kinds of hoops two years ago and I can't get my A2000 or A1200 to use more than 4 gig. My A2000 uses a GVP 040 with SCSI, and my A1200 uses IDE.
You have to manually enter meaningful cylinders, sectors per track, tracks per cylinder, and sectors per cylinder numbers into HDToolBox yourself most of the time.

Franko: Perhaps you'd be willing to contribute a tiny bit of your technical experience to help get the FastATA supported under NetBSD?
http://mail-index.NetBSD.org/port-am...msg007507.html
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Old 01-05-2011, 03:52 PM   #39
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Default Re: Max hard drive size?

QUOTE=johnklos;604130]You have to manually enter meaningful cylinders, sectors per track, tracks per cylinder, and sectors per cylinder numbers into HDToolBox yourself most of the time.

Franko: Perhaps you'd be willing to contribute a tiny bit of your technical experience to help get the FastATA supported under NetBSD?
http://mail-index.NetBSD.org/port-am...msg007507.html[/QUOTE]

I'd be happy to help if I can but don't have a clue what NetBSD is...

Last edited by Franko; 01-09-2011 at 01:09 AM.. Reason: Restored Post for Continuity...
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Old 01-05-2011, 04:20 PM   #40
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Default Re: Max hard drive size?

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Originally Posted by Franko View Post
Or I disassemble something like the FastATA Driver, make it better and then can't share it with others cos it's still copyright and I'm the only one getting to use it...
Elbox never cared much about copyrights, licenses and other legalities. Why must we?
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