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Amiga.org Amiga computer related discussion Amiga community support ideas New Commodore Invictus from Commodore USA

Amiga community support ideas This forum is for the open discussion of new thoughts and ideas intended to help the Amiga community. What do we need? What do we want?

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Old 05-28-2010, 08:53 AM   #31
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Default Re: New Commodore Invictus from Commodore USA

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Originally Posted by trilobyte View Post
Hey! Re-branding OEM PCs worked really well for Commodore companies of the past...

http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=2621

Erm!
Isn't it funny. A lot of you are lamenting the re-branding OEM PCs as very un-Commodore, and then you realise Commodore actually did that themselves.
This practice isn't what killed Commodore either.
In 2010, this really is however, the only option available.

Did you expect a new Commodore company to come up with a console that can compete with multi-billion dollar companies like Sony and MS? Commodore couldn't even do that with their 2 console efforts.
Did you expect a new Commodore company to come up with revolutionary graphics technology that can compete with multi-billion dollar companies like ATI and nVidia?
Yeah, AGA was great.

What you are seeing is surely what the Commodore of old would have done anyway. Computers are a commodity. Why would you begrudge someone for wanting something a little different, even if it is not rational choice in your eyes.

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Old 05-28-2010, 09:02 AM   #32
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Default Re: New Commodore Invictus from Commodore USA

To paraphrase a saying from when commodore still had (a tiny bit) of relevency, "It's the software, stupid!"

It would be ridiculously easy to make some money if you had the commodore name and a bit of venture capital, but this is not the way to do it.
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Old 05-28-2010, 09:13 AM   #33
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Default Re: New Commodore Invictus from Commodore USA

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Originally Posted by abbub View Post
To paraphrase a saying from when commodore still had (a tiny bit) of relevency, "It's the software, stupid!"

It would be ridiculously easy to make some money if you had the commodore name and a bit of venture capital, but this is not the way to do it.
This is true, although I would like to make a tiny plea that it was also the styling. Maybe I'm weird, but I find the styling of the Amigas (heck, even the VIC and C64) to be sexy .

Now if you'll excuse me, I think I hear the lovely men in white jackets downstairs. I think I'll go get them some tea
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Old 05-28-2010, 09:17 AM   #34
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Default Re: New Commodore Invictus from Commodore USA

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Originally Posted by BigBenAussie View Post
You really make me laugh. I suggest you remove all brand products from your possession.
You'd probably end up naked. You pay more for a brand product. Get over it.
Hell, why don't you go wear that line out on the AmigaOne fans.
At least it's not CommodoreOne. Sheesh.
At least they can get the proper name of the brand.
You laugh when you should cry. The only thing sadder than trying to capitalize on an old brand name by reselling hardware people can buy themselves cheaper is supporting the effort. People will pay more for a brand name product if it has some qualities the cheaper options don't, so far this "Commodore" hasn't shown to offer anything of the sort, and them stamping C= a logo on something means about as much as me stamping one on something. The AmigaOne, while no huge commercial success, had the fact that it was a means to an end going for it, it was required hardware to run OS4. Cheaper, better PCs can be had than these rebranded "Commodore" units, and do the same thing.

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It comes with Ubuntu now.... Yeah, it's been done before... sure... but it's hardly a wide spread practice. Isn't that different enough for you.
No, it isn't. Ubuntu can be installed in about 45 minutes by most anyone who knows how to turn a computer on these days.

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Originally Posted by BigBenAussie View Post
Ok, with a bit of luck we'll get AROS on it, and maybe some emulation options. We'll see.
Luck? These are more free, easy to do things that work everywhere. No special C= logo needed!

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You can even install MacOSX on their Commodore Phoenix. Which I hope to demonstrate when mine finally arrives. Yeah, you can do that on MSI machines. But it is still different.
No, it isn't.

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There is probably even going to be an OS called Comodo which is a vastly simpler OS for young children or seniors.
Let me guess, another version of Ubuntu with some big pretty icons. Nothing new here either.

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Originally Posted by BigBenAussie View Post
The owner is open to all suggestions.
Give it up, the whole thing smells like failure.

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Originally Posted by BigBenAussie View Post
We, the Commodore fans, can make this what we want!
The Commodore fans just love to see their brand that died in 1994 stamped on new and unoriginal products.
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Old 05-28-2010, 09:21 AM   #35
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Default Re: New Commodore Invictus from Commodore USA

Quote:
To paraphrase a saying from when commodore still had (a tiny bit) of relevency, "It's the software, stupid!"
You may find that the new Commodore machines will actually pay homage to the Commodore software legacy some time soon. That's what I am involved in facilitating right now. Otherwise it will be like Elvis coming back from the dead and singing only Abba songs.
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Old 05-28-2010, 09:36 AM   #36
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Default Re: New Commodore Invictus from Commodore USA

No, I agree completely. In fact, my problem with these latest 'products' isn't the internals, it's the externals and the software.

Two brilliant case studies for what Commodore needs to do are already out in the market place and do quite well: the 'New Beetle' and the 'new MINI'. Both pay massive amounts of homage to the original, iconic product, while still managing to modernize the brand.

They need to limit themselves to one primary sku, and actually hire a designer to create a new case for it that looks cool, retro, and most importantly, like a Commodore. Also, beige is the new black. Embrace it.

I'd also hire some software engineers. I think you could easily get away using linux or BSD as the base for the OS (Darwin?!), but you have to write a custom GUI for it that also manages to look modern yet retro. You might even be able to get away with using a modified version of something like Haiku on it. I definatly would NOT ship it with Windows. Windows should be a boot camp sort of option. It's going to be a niche market one way or the other to begin with, so why not embrace that? From the software side, I'd be trying to move towards an Apple model.

Built-in emulation would be a given, but also get some guys to re-write and modernize some classic games from the C64 and include them with the system.

Finally you need marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing. Reaching out to a bunch of guys on an Amiga retro website is easy. You need to convince the 30-40 year olds who played with commodores when they were kids but who haven't thought about commodore in 20 years that this is the machine that can take them back to a time when computers were for fun, not spreadsheets.

...oh, you also need to keep this less than $500 a unit.
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Old 05-28-2010, 09:36 AM   #37
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Default Re: New Commodore Invictus from Commodore USA

@Tone007
Just because you don't get it doesn't mean other people wont.
Yes, people can find and purchase whatever obscure machines they want.
If they can find these machines elsewhere they should go for it.
If the brand means nothing to them, they can shop elsewhere too.
No-one is forcing anyone to buy anything. But for those that want one, here it is.

In terms of software there is the matter of convenience as well which you seem to neglect. This is pitched at a more mainstream audience that would prefer everything to work out of the box. You're a geek and discerning and you probably want to do everything yourself. Next, I'll probably hear you can put a machine together like this out of parts strewn about in your bedroom. Well others aren't interested in that. I dare say the majority of computer purchasers aren't interested in that either.
Why you feel the urge to stomp on this, when this represents the ONLY chance of a Commodore comeback. I really don't know. (sigh)
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Old 05-28-2010, 09:39 AM   #38
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Default Re: New Commodore Invictus from Commodore USA

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Originally Posted by BigBenAussie View Post
1. The Invictus comes with the Nvidia ION chipset which it is said will revolutionise gaming on these small devices. With wireless HDMI, you won't even need to have it plugged into your HDMI TV.

"Will it even be able to play Battlefield 2 for PC from 2005 @ SXGA in medium detail? Nope."
2. I bet you it will. And on your couch in your living room. And who knows, you might even be able to put keyboard game shortcuts on the touch screen.

3. If you think these specs are too low for you.....There's always the Commodore Phoenix, with the highend version being a 3.4 Ghz Quad Core. If you wait until Christmas you might even see an i7 version. That's why there's a range of Commodore machines at different specifications and price points. Honestly. Next you'll begrudge a Toyota Corolla for not being an F1 car!
Hmmm the similar Atom machine that this is compared to barely runs XP, an OS that runs fine on a 600mhz PIII and yet we have such enthusiasm.

1. Great, wireless HDMI for a machine that will struggle to store and playback 1080p video on the plasma/LCD. And the whole keyboard on lap and surf the web thing doesn't work anyway. Nothing people haven't tried for years via cordless keyboards and shuttle PC under the TV.

2. Yes I know it has ION but even if your geometry set up engine was not lumbered with an Atom it's still doubtful it would manage one of the most advanced DX9.3c engines at 30+ fps in SXGA 32bit colour from 2005. In fact there are only two laptops sold brand new today that can run these games, let alone cut down Atom CPU'd items.

3. My issue is it's not a 'Commodore' as it is nothing technically unique resulting in games a generation ahead of the competition. I don't need to pay 300% of parts prices to have a C= logo on my PC. Some realistic ideas on the off-chance someone from 'Commodore' reads this place...

C64 DTV relaunched with SD card slot.
C64 DTV motherboard in a 1:2 scale C64/C64C casing with BASIC built in and tape & disk ports.
As above but with optional hinged LCD 7" screen in the style of the Commodore LCD machine.
MP3 player full of SID tunes or MODs (in MP3 format).
Media player with good sized LCD and built in C64 emulator for a C64-a-like PSP machine.

All the above are possible, there is just no effort or imagination at all. A Commodore badge <> something I will automatically buy. Let's face it facebook/twitter addicts who buy this kind of low end CPU stuff forgot Commodore 15(+) years ago so the branding isn't going to help them much.
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Old 05-28-2010, 09:44 AM   #39
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Default Re: New Commodore Invictus from Commodore USA

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/04...ame_kerfuffle/

This is just lame. Avoid.

@BigBenAussie

You're being used. I'd seriously reconsider dealing with this Altman guy.

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Old 05-28-2010, 09:45 AM   #40
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Default Re: New Commodore Invictus from Commodore USA

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Originally Posted by BigBenAussie View Post
This is pitched at a more mainstream audience that would prefer everything to work out of the box.
Mainstream audience doesn't care about AROS, UAE, or C64 emulation either for the most part, I'd wager, which only leaves the main OS and apps. Mainstream, again, doesn't really want Linux when all their friends have Microsoft. Honestly, I'd say the Commodore Gaming effort had more of a shot than this one, if only for the fact they had a set market they were aiming towards. This incarnation just seems to like picking odd looking hardware to stick a Commodore logo on and hopes that's enough to sell it.

Speaking of AROS and the various emulation packages, which have been developed and offered for free by the community, it would seem unfair to the developers to use these as selling points on a commercial system, and essentially profit from someone else's hard work, without offering them something. Of course, I can't speak for those respective communities, but it just seems like more reliance on other peoples' names and work to sell mundane product.
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Old 05-28-2010, 09:49 AM   #41
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Default Re: New Commodore Invictus from Commodore USA

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Originally Posted by BigBenAussie View Post
@Tone007
Why you feel the urge to stomp on this, when this represents the ONLY chance of a Commodore comeback. I really don't know. (sigh)
I suspect he feels the urge to stomp on this because it looks like (yet another) fly-by-night attempt to rape the corpse of one of his childhood friends. That's sort of what it feels like to me, anyway. I don't get the sense that there's (much) money behind this, therefore I expect the chances of this succeeding are about nil. I don't see good branding. I don't see any consideration for design. I don't see any compelling marketing. I don't see any compelling software. When I was talking about hiring software engineers to write a custom GUI on a *nix base, I was thinking more of an OS X sort of deal, not re-skinning Ubuntu.

Christ, man, we should be the most FERVENT of your target audience. If you can't sell us, how to you expect to sell anyone else?
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Old 05-28-2010, 09:51 AM   #42
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Default Re: New Commodore Invictus from Commodore USA

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Christ, man, we should be the most FERVENT of your target audience. If you can't sell us, how to you expect to sell anyone else?
+1
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Old 05-28-2010, 10:11 AM   #43
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Default Re: New Commodore Invictus from Commodore USA

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No, I agree completely. In fact, my problem with these latest 'products' isn't the internals, it's the externals and the software.

Two brilliant case studies for what Commodore needs to do are already out in the market place and do quite well: the 'New Beetle' and the 'new MINI'. Both pay massive amounts of homage to the original, iconic product, while still managing to modernize the brand.

They need to limit themselves to one primary sku, and actually hire a designer to create a new case for it that looks cool, retro, and most importantly, like a Commodore. Also, beige is the new black. Embrace it.

I'd also hire some software engineers. I think you could easily get away using linux or BSD as the base for the OS (Darwin?!), but you have to write a custom GUI for it that also manages to look modern yet retro. You might even be able to get away with using a modified version of something like Haiku on it. I definatly would NOT ship it with Windows. Windows should be a boot camp sort of option. It's going to be a niche market one way or the other to begin with, so why not embrace that? From the software side, I'd be trying to move towards an Apple model.

Built-in emulation would be a given, but also get some guys to re-write and modernize some classic games from the C64 and include them with the system.

Finally you need marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing. Reaching out to a bunch of guys on an Amiga retro website is easy. You need to convince the 30-40 year olds who played with commodores when they were kids that this is the machine that can take them back to a time when computers were for fun, not spreadsheets.

...oh, you also need to keep this less than $500 a unit.
There are a range of machines for different people. Cutting off at a particular price only has people saying "if only they". You can't please everyone with one product, you can't even do that with many products. You create a range and people buy according to what they're willing to spend and their sensibilities. Should Apple only have one product? What you are asking for would be suicidal.

You don't think these devices are a modern spin on the Computer in a keyboard concept so reminiscent of Comodore's computer heritage? Look at any review of these kinds of machines from other companies and you will more often than not see reference to Commodore. New designs costs a lot of money and there is no guarantee of success. There will be new designs. The Commodore Phoenix is an apt name as it will help Commodore rise from the ashes. It will lead to bigger and better things.

I pushed for Beige. Barry laughed at me. Oh well. People also want the machine to boot into the Blue/Cyan ready screen too. I have to think beige is a rather acquired taste these days. I don't think I've ever heard anyone ask for a beige Amiga either. I see people asking for black. The Phoenix I chose is silver and black, with black keys. Suits my monitor decor and desk. But hey, maybe that's just me.

Wait, so you're going to pick....Darwin, or Haiku, over AROS. How very un-Amigan of you. :-D
I've already mentioned the desire to put AROS as a standard boot option. If you couple it with ROMS it could provide the ultimate Commodore retro experience. It is not about being Apple. You simply can't go and build something new that is as good as MacOSX anyway and it's suicide to try. AROS does not pretend to be the greatest system ever, but provide an Amiga-like experience that returning Commodore fans will likely enjoy AS A HOBBY. Ya know, do you remember when computers were fun? You can't expect Commodore to, all by themselves, come up with a revolutionary new operating system to compete with the likes of Apple no matter what short-cuts they take. People already lament that MacOSX is just another unix/linux. Could you imagine what Amigafiles would say?

I'll say it again. As the machines sell, and they will, there will be new designs that will likely be more to your tastes.

Windows is only an option right now. The machines currently ship with the latest Ubuntu as standard. There will hopefully be more options in time for the official launch in Q3. I may have mentioned that I will be attempting to quadruple boot, Win7, Ubuntu, MacOSX and AROS, when I get my Phoenix.

In our e-mails Commodore USA's owner has told me that there will be a significant amount spent on marketing. Much more than the last Commodore companies seemed to have spent. They came and died without me even knowing they were there. There are some interesting advertising ideas kicking about. I am confident you'll hear about Commodore in the mainstream soon enough. Hopefully it wont be cringe-worthy, but I'm sure there'll be haters. There are always haters.

What you are asking in terms of revamps of Commodore games is outside Commodore's area of interest. Isn't something like that more down Hyperion's alley? You should accost them. If you could run a multitude of classic games, hopefully, out of the box, that would be an achievement in itself. You've got to leave something for third parties to create.

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Old 05-28-2010, 10:11 AM   #44
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Default Re: New Commodore Invictus from Commodore USA

While I like the geek factor of a Commodore label, it is not worth a premium over the same product without a Commodore label. So far I don't see a product by this may-one-day-be-branded-Commodore company that I want. Then again I don't like my PCs as all in one, I like towers with lots of slots.
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Old 05-28-2010, 10:11 AM   #45
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Default Re: New Commodore Invictus from Commodore USA

I will just build my own power house computer and slap a C= sticker on the side.

and then give it some goony name that makes it sound futuristic.

I will call it the Nebulatron

Isn't that what they are doing?
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