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Old 09-24-2009, 03:42 PM   #21
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Default Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

Look,if the guy is happy just selling a one time break-even run of several hundred collector's edition PPC boards,then fine for him.

I've sent my personal view which is $500 is my limit on buying a new PPC board just to be different and run old Amiga apps.Which is why SAM has yet to grace my desk.Likewise $100 for an OS.
There is just too much cheap,proven x86 and Mac stuff out there.
My OPINION is most of the x86 PCs being bought today are vastly overpowered for the tasks they are doing.
Only the gamers and video enthusiasts push their machines.You don't need multiGHz for email,bank statements,web browsing is still limited by the ISP more than the user's cpu.But we LIKE driving Ferraris 30mph to the grocery store because they look cool!
It is only we get all huffy because others won't follow our advice that it becomes a problem.
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Old 09-24-2009, 03:59 PM   #22
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Default Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

Yeah, if every manufacturer listed to the whim of the market where would we be? Just because nobody will buy it is not a valid reason for not making it.

Wow, I should be chairman of General Motors!

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Despite the expertise of bloodline or any other person,they can only offer their OPINION.

If someone wants to make a new PPC and you don't like it,you could just ignore it.

Too many experts DEMAND all users/customers must follow their advice and opinion;similar to other totalitarians like the globull warming bs.

PPC is dead when no one uses it.Just because the people who drive/restore/show certain old cars/tractors/computers are a tiny percentage of the market doesn't mean they can't enjoy the activity.

And a PPC Mac port of Amiga OS or MorphOS or AROS for Mac will instantly have a huge pool of computers to run on.
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Old 09-24-2009, 04:04 PM   #23
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Default Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

I don't think PPC is dead at all... IBM made a lot of money selling PPC based servers, and it still make money with that... Power 7 is around the bend, and it will catch up with Intel and AMD again. PPC's are cheaper to produce than any X86 architecture...

EVEN, XBOX360, Wii and PS3 do use PPC, and that's nothing new. I bet they will be using PPC still on their next gen consoles. So PPC is not dead at all. If you don't like "fresh air" on the PPC scene, just stick up with windoze and the X86 %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!.

X86 are faster? Yeah they are, but that doesn't mean PPC's are lame or something...
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Old 09-24-2009, 04:31 PM   #24
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Default Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

You couldn't be much worse than the current and past chairmen of GM or Chrysler.
Now the politicians are in charge and we have Generally Mandated and Fiasco!

Look,our mythical Greek hero is only testing the waters and evidently NOT expecting mass market appeal.You guys are like someone ridiculing a manufacturer bringing out a new line of buggy whips-he has a ready-made but small market in the Amish.

Amigans just might be the Amish of computing,except with poorer manners.
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Old 09-24-2009, 04:43 PM   #25
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Default Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

Quote:
Originally Posted by DyLucke View Post
I don't think PPC is dead at all...
PPC survives in telecoms situations. Even in telecoms (As I recently discovered) it is now in danger of being squeezed out by pure fpgas.

But in the desktop area it's day is long gone.

Quote:
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IBM made a lot of money selling PPC based servers, and it still make money with that... Power 7 is around the bend, and it will catch up with Intel and AMD again. PPC's are cheaper to produce than any X86 architecture...
There are niches the PPC fills nicely. Whilst PPC might be cheaper to produce then some X86 chips, the cost of developing it into a chip that can take on X86 in the desktop market and continue to do so generation after generation is an entirely different matter. The only reason PowerPC lasted as long as it did on desktop systems was because of Apple, IBM would have dropped it long before.

Power 7 may well be upon us soon, but Power is not the same as PPC and big iron is a very different market then consumer desktops.

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Originally Posted by DyLucke View Post
EVEN, XBOX360, Wii and PS3 do use PPC, and that's nothing new.
Yes again, a niche product.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DyLucke View Post
I bet they will be using PPC still on their next gen consoles. So PPC is not dead at all. If you don't like "fresh air" on the PPC scene, just stick up with windoze and the X86 @@@@.
Oh good gods. (oh and watch your language - kids visit this site)

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X86 are faster? Yeah they are, but that doesn't mean PPC's are lame or something...
If you're attempting to gain a foothold into the desktop market with one, yes, yes it is.

If you have a niche, then you might get away with it. But this particular board would be an ill fit due to the architectural limitations of AOS/MorphOS/AROS.

If the person behind this is genuine I do wish him luck. But of his targeted OS's, only Haiku would make any sort of sense and given the response by the Haiku board linked to... Well look for yourself.
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Old 09-24-2009, 04:53 PM   #26
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Default Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

Quote:
Originally Posted by DyLucke View Post
I don't think PPC is dead at all... IBM made a lot of money selling PPC based servers, and it still make money with that... Power 7 is around the bend, and it will catch up with Intel and AMD again. PPC's are cheaper to produce than any X86 architecture...

EVEN, XBOX360, Wii and PS3 do use PPC, and that's nothing new. I bet they will be using PPC still on their next gen consoles. So PPC is not dead at all. If you don't like "fresh air" on the PPC scene, just stick up with windoze and the X86 %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!.

X86 are faster? Yeah they are, but that doesn't mean PPC's are lame or something...
Finaly something that makes scence not to mention cooler cpus and lower power consumption - Ill agrea the prices are to expensive commared to x86
I wish people would stop wingeing about PPC hardware, its oviously not dead the most obvious choice architecture for a console -
niche product and OS4 isnt?
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Old 09-24-2009, 05:12 PM   #27
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Default Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

Have to agree with DyLucke, the PPC is far from dead and to be honest, if anything has to be put out of its misery, it's got to be the x86 (both 32- and 64-bit). The only thing that keep it from obsolescence is the bloatware called Winblows, the x86 need to be fast in order to run Winblows at an adequate speed. I'm damn sure the PPC would be a lot faster than it is today if Microshaft had kept supporting it after WinNT 4.0.
There! Now I have whacked a hornet's nest with a stick and set the ant-hill on fire.
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Old 09-24-2009, 06:11 PM   #28
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Default Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

I dont think ANOTHER motherboard will do anyone any favors. Nobody cares.


Why not put a pot of $ together for NEW SOFTWARE to be ported or written to OS 4.x and/or MorphOS?

A nice office suite that can read/write Microsoft Office documents, a great multiplayer online game, etc. Something that shows off what we have NOW. The hardware is there, the software is not. Myself, I dont care for another PPC board. I go where MorphOS goes. Mac Mini G4? no problem, got 2.
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Old 09-24-2009, 07:19 PM   #29
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Default Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

I was pointed to this forum, I didn't know there existed a separate discussion here. Anyway, as noted in:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/...order=0#509376

I appreciate the noise, but there are a few points I'd like to mention:

* I am not a Mythical Hero.
* This is not vapourware, I do indeed plan to invest on this.
* MorphOS and AmigaOS were not target OSes in the beginning, Linux and Haiku were. Whatever you say, Linux is a huge market for embedded AND PowerPC, and Haiku has a great potential. I would like to think that this effort is not a one-off. That is, I hope to sell enough to fund the next batch and then the next and then an upgrade, and another, etc. Whether AmigaOS/MorphOS are supported that will depend heavily on the number of users that ask this and the dev teams involved. If only 10 people ask for AmigaOS support, then it's not going to happen.
* For those who haven't seen it yet, Haiku is going to do on the desktop what Linux failed to do (not now, in a few years).
* Variety is good. PPC is not dead, and unless something really bad happens -eg. Freescale/IBM close down- it won't really die.

In any case, I'll blog about the mails I receive so far, which are surprisingly enough, given that I posted this thing <24h ago.

So, I understand the sceptiscism, I really appreciate the feedback, I note everything and I will take into consideration all important comments.

About the last comment. I'm sorry, I don't see how investing money into software for the AmigaOS, will be successful. That's for the Amiga Software companies, and IMHO, that would be even more suicidal than investing in hardware, but that's just MHO.

Regards

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Old 09-24-2009, 07:24 PM   #30
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Default Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

If Linux and Haiku is your primary goal.. what does your system offer vs. a Atom 330 dual core setup at about $80 ?
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Old 09-24-2009, 07:29 PM   #31
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Default Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

Anybody developing products for Amiga market is a hero to some.
It was meant to be compliment.
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Old 09-24-2009, 07:35 PM   #32
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Default Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

Apart from the variety factor, Atom power consumption is in fact higher than the MPC8610 (at least the earlier models, don't know about the 330 to be honest). Also since the speed is similar, and the Atom is not really the fastest Intel chip -nothing to do with C2D or Nehalems, etc- , performance-wise, the PPC chips will be very competitive. The price is another matter, but for that reason I'm looking to include something extra for added value (eg. USB 3.0 host chip). That still remains to be seen.

Anyway, as I said elsewhere, the question is not if there is a market. The market is there. The question is "is the market big enough to sustain itself?"
If I get enough interest I will go forward. If I get 90% mails to deter me from going forward with this, well chances are that I will abide and just invest my money on ARM instead.

Regards

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Old 09-24-2009, 07:43 PM   #33
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Default Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

Haiku ppc? Isn't that more a dream than a reality? And Linux? You have Yellow Dog on PPC and that's about it. You lose wine and a lot of other pieces of software on PPC. You gain nothing in return for the losses. Look at Apple, sales have tripled since the Intel switchover.

So you have no OS, no laptop support and come in at several times the price of Intel, why would anyone give you money for that?
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Old 09-24-2009, 07:50 PM   #34
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Default Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

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haiku ppc? Isn't that more a dream than a reality? And linux? You have yellow dog on ppc and that's about it. You lose wine and a lot of other pieces of software on ppc. You gain nothing in return for the losses. Look at apple, sales have tripled since the intel switchover.

So you have no os, no laptop support and come in at several times the price of intel, why would anyone give you money for that?
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Old 09-24-2009, 08:01 PM   #35
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Default Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

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And Linux? You have Yellow Dog on PPC and that's about it.
The newest versions of Ubuntu continue to support PPC Macs, and they actually work fairly well (a whole lot less hardware to support there.)

However, Haiku is funny. It looks like Linux looked 10+ years ago, I can't see that taking off and being wildly successful.
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Old 09-25-2009, 03:56 AM   #36
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Default Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

I think in 10 seconds both my legs will fall off......
......
.....
...
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Nup still there !.


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Old 09-25-2009, 04:06 AM   #37
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Default Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

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Apart from the variety factor, Atom power consumption is in fact higher than the MPC8610 (at least the earlier models, don't know about the 330 to be honest). Also since the speed is similar, and the Atom is not really the fastest Intel chip -nothing to do with C2D or Nehalems, etc- , performance-wise, the PPC chips will be very competitive. The price is another matter, but for that reason I'm looking to include something extra for added value (eg. USB 3.0 host chip). That still remains to be seen.
You should be aware one of the biggest complaints about BeOS and by extension Haiku was it's lack of hardware support, now there are plans to integrate gallium3d but the question remains - does your ppc board offer enough value added to offset the large cost difference? So far as I know most of the development effort for Haiku as been aimed squarely at X86.

Certainly as a desktop offering I think you're walking a very dodgy path.

Quote:
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Anyway, as I said elsewhere, the question is not if there is a market. The market is there. The question is "is the market big enough to sustain itself?"
If I get enough interest I will go forward. If I get 90% mails to deter me from going forward with this, well chances are that I will abide and just invest my money on ARM instead.
In all honesty I think you would be better off using ARM if you want a market that'll sustain itself, either that or perhaps you might want to look at the gp2x model and see if you couldn't produce a non portable console for hackers along the same lines. Now that I think has some real potential.

@tone007

Given that Haiku is being designed to integrate some of the next gen *nix architecture such as gallium3d, it's going to be in a position to offer hardware support on a par with linux but offer things like drag and drop application installs (you know, just like OSX and Amiga offered) as well as a number of other things that have long been things accused of holding linux back on the desktop.

Will it go anyhwere... Dunno, but I think it has a fighting chance.
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Old 09-25-2009, 06:41 AM   #38
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Default Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

Quote:
In all honesty I think you would be better off using ARM if you want a market that'll sustain itself, either that or perhaps you might want to look at the gp2x model and see if you couldn't produce a non portable console for hackers along the same lines. Now that I think has some real potential.

@tone007

Given that Haiku is being designed to integrate some of the next gen *nix architecture such as gallium3d, it's going to be in a position to offer hardware support on a par with linux but offer things like drag and drop application installs (you know, just like OSX and Amiga offered) as well as a number of other things that have long been things accused of holding linux back on the desktop.

Will it go anyhwere... Dunno, but I think it has a fighting chance.
ARM would be a much better option as an alternative to x86. One big question for Hyperion and MOS crew, will there be a follow on or will they be porting to an orphan mobo? Unless I miss my guess, this is going to be a VERY limited number production run of mobos. Is it likely to be a follow on, or a cold dead end?
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Old 09-25-2009, 06:48 AM   #39
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Default Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

Quote:
ARM would be a much better option as an alternative to x86. One big question for Hyperion and MOS crew, will there be a follow on or will they be porting to an orphan mobo? Unless I miss my guess, this is going to be a VERY limited number production run of mobos. Is it likely to be a follow on, or a cold dead end?
The first production run will be about 500 units. This will be used to fund the next and so on. Well, that's going to be the way, unless I manage to get an investor with huge pockets and order 10k units at once... (unlikely given the current situation).

If you think that porting AmigaOS and MorphOS to ARM would be of benefit just for a single motherboard, then I think you got this on a wrong basis. It would be the start for many nice things, eg. eventually, one might just sell AmigaOS-loaded Beagleboards, or sth like that. The potential is big. Anyway, you know, if the PowerPC thing doesn't gather enough interest, I'd just as well try my luck on ARM.

Konstantinos
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Old 09-25-2009, 06:59 AM   #40
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Default Re: Market research for new PowerPC system

I think thsi is great, and, depending on the cost, I might very much be ineterested.

To all those, who say, there is no pint, since there is X86, I wonder if you drive the same car, since, there is no point in anything else, we have Ford.
And there is no point in alternative OS, there is Windows...

Come on, there is a market for PPC based boards...

Go for it
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