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Old 08-19-2009, 02:15 PM   #31
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Default Re: The future of Amiga.org ...?

@ Wayne

I'll stick a $500 pledge into the pot if one gets organised.

I'd rather be a part of A.org both now and in the future than look at it through places like www.archive.org
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:19 PM   #32
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Default Re: The future of Amiga.org ...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne View Post
As for me, a "vacation" isn't the answer. The site's "pretty much run itself" for far too long and needs someone who's interested in making the site a better place and more worthy of supporting the community than I simply have to give it any more.
I think you are downplaying your last update a bit there. Ok, some folks didn't like vB, after many long years of an almost static XOOPS install.

Now, there are new features galore and most of us are quite unfamiliar with them. I think that will change in time.

So in terms of making the site a better place, you've certainly done that. I don't think so many of us are used to change, we were all pretty much contented with the old site which is why it's taking time for people to realise and appreciate how much better it has become.
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:26 PM   #33
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Default Re: The future of Amiga.org ...?

Hey, maybe that one russian (?) kid will buy it and crank it down so it works with ALynx running on an unexpanded A500, and he can then curse at us all in broken english.

:-D
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:28 PM   #34
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Default Re: The future of Amiga.org ...?

I agree, It would be great to have someone that cares about and uses an Amiga running this site.
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:55 PM   #35
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Default Re: The future of Amiga.org ...?

@Wayne

Greetings,

These are trying times, eventually every story must come to an end eventually. Moving on and looking that sense of purpose is the only thing that drives each individual. As a one of the many users, wish you luck and happiness in your next endevour. Amiga.org will always and forever be Amiga.org(lesbian site or not), as the name implies, always be a friend.

Regards,

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Old 08-19-2009, 03:10 PM   #36
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Default Disenchanted...

It is a tough situation, Wayne. I think the word that best describes your feelings (as I understand them) is 'disenchanted.'

I took on a huge project of my own and while it wasn't running as long as Amiga.org, it cost me a year's wages (30k) and exposed me to some difficult and dangerous conditions down in South Africa. I currently have the fruit of those efforts here on my desk: a 700 page manuscript to do with forensics and ballistics. I don't know what price tag I can put on it, but it is all my own work and content and it cannot be published (and I've become 'disenchanted' with trying to do so)

There are similarities here. We put in effort into a project or endeavour that we are intensely interested in, and it either doesn't develop into what we had hoped, or we ourselves change direction and realise that what we are working on isn't attractive any longer.

Where things differ, is the perceived value of that project. Why is Amiga.org worth $10k?

I may have this completely wrong, but in my opinion this board is made up of a static and dynamic component. The static component is who owns the website, its logo, format, database etc. The dynamic component is....well, it is US, the members. We are who made this site what it is, and we contribute and provide most of the site's material. You could even argue that we contribute financially to it by feeding the kitty (admittedly I haven't done this for some time, but I have indeed contributed in the past).
The members are the community, the denizens of this board and without them there is no Amiga.org. It doesn't matter whether they are in the sprout or the broccoli camp, they are as an entity a dynamic and invaluable component of what Amiga.org is.

But you can't sell that, or even put a price tag on it. You can't sell US.
It would be different if this was a company and we had all signed contracts, but we come and go as we please, contribute material and advice as we please. Therefore the $10k is for a website that has a definite static component that you own, and an indefinite dynamic component that you don't. A kind of dynamic 'going concern.'

It is by no means certain that the usefulness of the site (by virtue of its members' contributions) will remain the same, as there are no guarantees that members will stay, especially if the atmosphere changes or the way this site is run, changes.

I wish you the best of luck in getting the $10k and I do understand your reasons for asking for it, but I have to tell you that this is a labour of love. As I remarked in another thread about A4000T doors, 'an item is worth whatever a buyer is willing to pay for it.' You do however have to be prepared for the buyer who divorces the static and tangible component of the site from the dynamic component. Amiga.org is what it is because of several variables, not all of which are under your control and therefore can be sold.

I appreciate the work you have done in keeping this site up. I appreciate the work of the moderators (especially Karlos of late) and VERY IMPORTANTLY I appreciate the advice I have received over the years from my fellow Amigans.

My Amiga hasn't been used for quite a while and I have been considering selling it. These things happen, I understand why. Members come and go. I miss quite a few of them and many don't post much anymore.

It is fine to be disenchanted, it is fine to move on. The question of value is a more difficult one, and nobody will have an answer that everyone agrees with. All the best for the future.

That's my 2p.
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Old 08-19-2009, 04:02 PM   #37
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Default Re: Disenchanted...

Quote:
Originally Posted by X-ray View Post
It is a tough situation, Wayne. I think the word that best describes your feelings (as I understand them) is 'disenchanted.'

I took on a huge project of my own and while it wasn't running as long as Amiga.org, it cost me a year's wages (30k) and exposed me to some difficult and dangerous conditions down in South Africa. I currently have the fruit of those efforts here on my desk: a 700 page manuscript to do with forensics and ballistics. I don't know what price tag I can put on it, but it is all my own work and content and it cannot be published (and I've become 'disenchanted' with trying to do so)

There are similarities here. We put in effort into a project or endeavour that we are intensely interested in, and it either doesn't develop into what we had hoped, or we ourselves change direction and realise that what we are working on isn't attractive any longer.

Where things differ, is the perceived value of that project. Why is Amiga.org worth $10k?

I may have this completely wrong, but in my opinion this board is made up of a static and dynamic component. The static component is who owns the website, its logo, format, database etc. The dynamic component is....well, it is US, the members. We are who made this site what it is, and we contribute and provide most of the site's material. You could even argue that we contribute financially to it by feeding the kitty (admittedly I haven't done this for some time, but I have indeed contributed in the past).
The members are the community, the denizens of this board and without them there is no Amiga.org. It doesn't matter whether they are in the sprout or the broccoli camp, they are as an entity a dynamic and invaluable component of what Amiga.org is.

But you can't sell that, or even put a price tag on it. You can't sell US.
It would be different if this was a company and we had all signed contracts, but we come and go as we please, contribute material and advice as we please. Therefore the $10k is for a website that has a definite static component that you own, and an indefinite dynamic component that you don't. A kind of dynamic 'going concern.'

It is by no means certain that the usefulness of the site (by virtue of its members' contributions) will remain the same, as there are no guarantees that members will stay, especially if the atmosphere changes or the way this site is run, changes.

I wish you the best of luck in getting the $10k and I do understand your reasons for asking for it, but I have to tell you that this is a labour of love. As I remarked in another thread about A4000T doors, 'an item is worth whatever a buyer is willing to pay for it.' You do however have to be prepared for the buyer who divorces the static and tangible component of the site from the dynamic component. Amiga.org is what it is because of several variables, not all of which are under your control and therefore can be sold.

I appreciate the work you have done in keeping this site up. I appreciate the work of the moderators (especially Karlos of late) and VERY IMPORTANTLY I appreciate the advice I have received over the years from my fellow Amigans.

My Amiga hasn't been used for quite a while and I have been considering selling it. These things happen, I understand why. Members come and go. I miss quite a few of them and many don't post much anymore.

It is fine to be disenchanted, it is fine to move on. The question of value is a more difficult one, and nobody will have an answer that everyone agrees with. All the best for the future.

That's my 2p.
The community is EXACTLY what sells when website transactions take place...

Microsoft wants Yahoo because of the userbase, not because Microsoft needs a search-engine.

Google bought YouTube because of its userbase, not because it needed the technology.

This is a popular Amiga website. If it had only one user, it wouldn't be worth 10K. The price is directly related to the users, and as such, the userbase is for sale.
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Old 08-19-2009, 04:36 PM   #38
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Cool Re: The future of Amiga.org ...?

this time next year...
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Old 08-19-2009, 05:23 PM   #39
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Default Re: The future of Amiga.org ...?

@Wayne

Finally found the time to read this thread, and wanted to throw in my thanks for this site, I've been on here since around '04 or '05, through some pretty tough times. As an alcoholic who quit drinking in '05, I looked to my old Amiga 1200 as a positive hobby to get back into, and as such have been sober since. This site has been an invaluable resource in my Amiga tinkering pursuits, and if not for my wife and daughter occupying most of my time (As it should be), I would try to scrape up the $10k you would need, especially if you have family you would rather spend time with rather than a keyboard. (I tend to do both, which explains the random characters seen on some of my e-mails. 2y/o daughter likes banging on the keyboard :-D) Anyway, I'm in such a financial rut right now that I can only wish you the best and hope you get what you're asking for with the site. I personally think its worth it! (And I do feel rather guilty about not being able to donate any $$$... been like that for awhile here)
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Old 08-19-2009, 06:20 PM   #40
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Default Re: Disenchanted...

@X-ray,

Again, not going to sit here and defend why I -- or anyone -- thinks this site is, or isn't worth what I'm asking. Frankly, neither would you if someone walked into your house and belittled your work as I feel you have just done mine.

In my mind (and thankfully that of others in this community) this site has tangible value. Hell, it might be one of the only actual Amiga related things in the world that does. Value intrinsic in YEARS worth of posts, in thousands of gathered images, in hundreds of articles, and in thousands of comments to said same.

Absolutely, positively granted. A lot of those comments, articles, etc were in fact contributed by "you", meaning the community, but the fact that *I* was here at all to collect all the little nibbly bits and make them all accessible is more than almost any of you have done over the years.

Fred Fish didn't write software. He collected software, and you paid him for it. The Amiga Web Directory didn't invent links, Kevin Hisel simply gathered them and you all thought he was an Amiga God. Miriam-Webster didn't make up words, they just collected them and we all buy their dictionaries. I could go on with example after example but I think you get the point.

I'm not trying to "sell the community". I'm trying to quietly walk away with a little dignity from a community, and a site (which you are correct, go hand in hand) that frankly I spent 15 years of my life helping to build.

What I don't get, is the need of some to step into a thread like this with negative -- or better stated, discouraging -- comments at all? It's not like it was a request for discussion. I've stated my case, clarified my intentions, and stated my asking price for everything that I've worked on for 15 years. I'm tired, and yes. "Disenchanted".

Then you, and a couple of people come along and just feel some unexplainable need to pull your wanker out to tell me how you feel that I'm somehow stupid for even making the offer?

Yes. This site is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Nothing more, nothing less (thank you Captain Obvious ).

As Amiga collectibles go however, I feel compelled to state that Amiga.org is, in fact, more unique than the Walker prototype, the 3000+ or even a mint copy of Detective Stories (Superman #1). There will never be another AMIGA.ORG.

That being said, I am hoping that several intrepid community members (hopefully friends) will band together and form a consortium of sorts. Sell shares, elect your own webmaster, do whatever and run the site the way that "you" (the community again) want to run it.

I already have an offer on the table, but it's what I will generously call "a little low" and contingent on a 90 day window. Before giving into such an offer, I'd be remiss if I didn't offer it to the very people that help to make it what it is today.

Maybe there isn't anyone in the community (or even a small group of people) who really cares whether or not this site continues. As others have stated, there are always other web sites, and I'm sure at least one of you have bought a domain and started a bot to rape the content from here already.

Looking at the whole ordeal from my perspective, it would only take the 800 active members each tossing in $13 to a neutral paypal account to solve the whole damned boggle. 200 people at $50. 100 at $100, etcetera.

I'm not asking anyone here to donate anything btw. I'm only making a point of how little $10k is in the grand scheme of things.

Who knows?

All I can say is it's messages like yours which continue to add to my deepening depression and only serve to reinforce that I've wasted 15 years of my life dedicated to this site and to trying to support everyone in the first place.

Despite all this ranting, I'm not angry or anything. I'm really not. I started this thread to just openly tell people how I feel about the situation with zero intention of changing things at any point in the foreseeable future. Really. I'm burned out on computers in general.

If I had my way right now, I'd almost rather computers didn't exist. I really have no use for any of them, and the longer this thread continues, the more a few such as yourself convince me that -- current economics aside -- the thrill is gone and it's time to move on.

Who knows? Perhaps if AI had done something. Perhaps if Bill Buck hadn't fscked me and others over. Perhaps if the AI had pushed to go the Mac route like they did with OS X in 1999? perhaps.. perhaps... perhaps.... Too many variables to care any more.

So far, between just two people in this thread, if someone would only take the initiative to work it all out, you're already 15% of the way there.

Disenchanted indeed...

Wayne
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Old 08-19-2009, 07:20 PM   #41
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Default Re: The future of Amiga.org ...?

$US13 would probably be doable here, even. (Stating this before asking the wife, which is dangerous at best ) I also would like to re-assure you I fully understand being burned out on Amiga. Lawsuits, vaporware, "spin-offs" seemingly developed out of sheer frustration of progress (or lack thereof). Its sites like this this that help alleviate frustration from the bad news, and allow Amiga users to band together despite lack of any "formal" leadership. That alone is more than I would want to put a price tag on, $10K or not. As well as whatever 3rd party software/hardware was developed simply because people in a global community have an easy way to collaborate. Any of the forums would have provided this, but this one has always been friendly and a pleasure to visit. If somebody sets up a paypal donation, I'll certainly put what I can in it. This isn't asking too much considering how my "hobby" pulled me through some turbulent times (mentioned in prev. post), and this site had much to do with finding information I needed to learn some truly interesting things about it.

Wayne, I certainly respect and back your decision, and personally, I would walk away from Amiga when the memories will be fond, rather than wait until being embittered about it, there are too many good things the Amiga community has accomplished (and you promoted with this site) to remember. I truly hope none of my comments are not interpreted negatively, they're not intended as such. If what I've seen in the Amiga community in the past persists, I'm sure A.org will live on. (And not host spanish speaking women infatuated with the number "sesenta y nueve", though I'd probably still drop in if that was the case ) Joking aside, the 15 years you put into this are appreciated, and again I wish you luck in whatever pursuits you follow.
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Old 08-19-2009, 07:44 PM   #42
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Default Re: Disenchanted...

Amiga org is part of our history

and I want to thank Wayne for taking care of that all these years
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Old 08-19-2009, 08:01 PM   #43
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Default Re: The future of Amiga.org ...?

Have not been on..or posted in a while..but it is my home page when I open Safari, and Firefox. This post def. caught my attention, sadly I have to admit :-(. I played the lotto.. I suggest every member play their local/state lotto games..you never know.

I hope and wish Amiga.org bright and happy days. Are you going to sell the site to an Amiga fan?? or just someone who comes up with the money first??


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne View Post
Good morning guys,

A few years ago on April Fool's Day, I played a prank where I "sold Amiga.org to Spanish lesbians".

It was pretty funny back then, and everyone was both laughing and furious at me for weeks. Some even abandoned the site over it, but then again, there are always rats looking to jump ship.

For the last few years, it's been a running joke amongst friends that I should truly sell the site to real spanish lesbians and move on. As always, there's a bit of truth in every joke.

The simple fact is that while I started out being one of the devout fanboys when the community was 200,000 strong, and I loved everything Amiga, I haven't felt that way in many years. In truth, I don't feel that way about ANY computer platform any more.

The result is that running the site itself -- while rewarding -- has been an increasing struggle for me, since I don't use or follow all the drama as closely as I once did. Kind of like a soap opera. I grew up addicted, but over the years too many actors and storylines have changed to keep my interest.

So what does this mean?

Effectively, it means that I'm beginning an active search for someone both able, and interested in buying, then taking over the site.

It could be one person, or a group of partners, but after 15 years of solid dedication, in order to "buy me out", the cost is $10,000 USD.

I know most of the remaining fanboys will start screaming about how I don't have the right to sell the site, or to even expect money for my blood, sweat, and tears, but that 10k is 1/2 of what it's worth, and 1/2 of what I was asking just 5 years ago. It's also one hell of a low price for 15 YEARS of my life.

I just need to pay off some debt and move forward in my life. I can't do that if I spend most of my free time here administering the site and worrying about hackers and/or spammers.

10,000 USD. Less than some of you spend on Amiga hardware in a year, can buy you the one, single, unique thing still active and worth something in the Amiga universe.

If no one reads this, and I'm sure no one will, I'm considering putting the site up on eBay on a "until it sells" basis with a reserve on October 1st.

Lock, stock, and barrel.

During which the site would still be left running and all, and I'll continue to do anything I can to make it better for everyone. I'm just tired of feeling like I need a vacation from what should be a hobby endeavor.

It's been an honor serving this community and all my friends in it for these 15 years. A time I'll never forget, but it's time for me to move forward.
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Old 08-19-2009, 08:05 PM   #44
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Talking Re: The future of Amiga.org ...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne View Post

.....during which the site would still be left running and all, and I'll continue to do anything I can to make it better for everyone. I'm just tired of feeling like I need a vacation from what should be a hobby endeavor.

It's been an honor serving this community and all my friends in it for these 15 years. A time I'll never forget, but it's time for me to move forward.
Wayne, I totally understand and agree that spare time is very very hard to come by as we get older and work and family responsibilities come into play....Amiga time is my down time and I enjoy it..I hope you can sell the site for a nice amount of money and hopefully to pay you back for all the hard work and dedication you paid over the years to the Amiga community!

btw, I'll gladly donate some money if the community wants to get together to buy Amiga.org!
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Old 08-19-2009, 08:36 PM   #45
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Default Re: Disenchanted...

Quote:
Fred Fish didn't write software. He collected software, and you paid him for it.
This is not true. He did write software, and his fish disks were distributed for the cost of a disk, and free by other means (bbs's etc). he was a supporter of GPL also.

Quote:
All I can say is it's messages like yours which continue to add to my deepening depression and only serve to reinforce that I've wasted 15 years of my life dedicated to this site and to trying to support everyone in the first place.
I dont see how you took his comment this way. I'm sure in the last 15 years, you have done things for more than a monetary reward at the end, and people like the site and contribute which shows their support. I don't personally believe it has a value as you think, and I think there are sometimes more important things than money.

Last edited by buzz; 08-19-2009 at 08:42 PM.. Reason: additional quote
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