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[HopperJF]

The fact that 80% of the legislation that go's through Westminster is actually EU directives and even if every Westminster MP voted against any piece of European legislation that wouldn't matter, because European law is superior over British law.

We can stay in Europe, we can keep free trade with Europe, but why be part of the political union? At a time when we are in recession saddled with debt is it really worth the £15bn+ a year so they can make daft laws to inflict upon us?

[odin]

The EU has been a godsend for Europe, I'd wager that the latter half of the 20th century could have been a whole lot different when it comes to economical stability and peace in Europe without it. It is, however, in dire need of democratic reforms and the damned country veto needs to be flushed ASAP.

[HopperJF]

Perhaps for a lot of countries or as they now call them "Member states" the EU is a good thing, but I think the UK would be a lot better without it for the simple reason we managed fine and better without it.
It is also worth noting pretty much every Prime Minister since we joined in 1973 (well, joined the Common Market that is) has promised to reform it but the fact of the matter is this is not possible.

It doesn't help when you have the sheer pig-headed arrogance of EU President Jose Barosso claiming the EU is an empire, the completely un-neccesary attitude towards the Czech president for standing up against the beaureaucrats "we are a country not a state". I applaud him for this but they clearly did not like his attitude.

If the UK was out of the EU we would be able to keep trading with European countries along with any other country we want. This is currently not possible. Staying out of the Euro currency maintains our flexibility when it comes to interest rates. Leaving the EU we would be able to control our immmigration wheras whilst we are in the borders are open whether we have the capacity/welfare or not. Same goes for jobs. Doesn't matter if you have lived here and paid into the system all your life or not... any EU citizen has as much right as you to work in your country.

It is killing our farming industry. To keep track of sheep farmers used to pay 12p for a tag. Now under EU law each tag is electronic and costs around £2.50 each. The banning of pesticides means farmers are no longer allowed to use product to kill insects and germs on their crops. There has been no proven damage to health from the use of pesticides, evidence of this the fact that they have been used up until 2009 with no problems. Just another ill-thought EU law, and as usual an expensive one. It's not too bad if you are French because EU law subsidises French farmers... because it has always been that way.

EU competition laws have shut down many of our post offices. The Royal Mail has had to radically change the way it operates so it can be competitive with foreign postal companies such as Deutsche post. You may remember when this happened when suddenly we were charged on the size as well as the weight of the items we post.

Then we have the outlaw of working over 48 hours per week. If someone was desperate for money for example they can no longer opt-out of the 48 hour limit even if they wanted to. This is going to cause major upset in hospitals where round the clock care is needed.

Not forgetting the fact that the EU is among the most corrupt organisations in the world and if it were a private company it would have been shut down long ago.. it's finances not being signed off for 12 years in a row. Not what you want to hear when we are forking out £15bn+ a year for membership.. the one accountant who was the whistleblower to some of the things going on was later sacked by Neil Kinnock. Our MEPs won't really do anything, all of the 3 main parties are pro-EU and have MEPs on the gravy train. Most weeks we hear of a new EU corruption scandal with an MEP.. so don't expect them to do anything about it.

Unfortunately Joe Public does not seem to be aware that we are being sold down the river. We may have won the war in 1945 but now we have pretty much sold off everything we fought for. Our self-governance has been made 80% obsolete and the Lisbon Treaty will make things much worse if Irish get bullied into voting yes... yes that is right, they said NO once, but of course the EU with its great democratic record will keep on asking them until they give the "right" answer.

At least they have the privelige of being asked.. our Prime Minister backed out of that manifesto pledge.

[Dandy]

HopperJF wrote:

Britain Should Leave The EU.
...

Yes - definitely.
Britain is an island - it should leave the ocean and come ashore!
:-P

[mdwh2]

The UK Government is quite capable of passing its own stupid laws, far more so than anything that's come from the EU.

HopperJF wrote:
If the UK was out of the EU we would be able to keep trading with European countries along with any other country we want. This is currently not possible.

We can't trade with other countries?

Leaving the EU we would be able to control our immmigration wheras whilst we are in the borders are open whether we have the capacity/welfare or not.

Borders open works both ways - it's nice having it easier to travel to other countries.

Same goes for jobs. Doesn't matter if you have lived here and paid into the system all your life or not...

So an employer isn't allowed to give the job to who he likes, he has to give preference to people based on where they've lived? What does paying into the system have to do anything? It's not the employers who get the taxes.

The banning of pesticides means farmers are no longer allowed to use product to kill insects and germs on their crops.

Do you have a source for this? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7828059.stm says it's some pesticides. I'm sure there are arguments for and against using pesticides, but I don't see that this is a particularly strong anti-EU argument. Governments impose all sorts of regulations and restrictions on food production.

There has been no proven damage to health from the use of pesticides, evidence of this the fact that they have been used up until 2009 with no problems. Just another ill-thought EU law, and as usual an expensive one.

Clearly, you disagree with them, but it seems rather strange to suggest that they brought in a ban just to be meddling bureaucrats.

EU competition laws have shut down many of our post offices. The Royal Mail has had to radically change the way it operates so it can be competitive with foreign postal companies such as Deutsche post.

You'd rather have a monopoly, than competition?

You may remember when this happened when suddenly we were charged on the size as well as the weight of the items we post.

This is annoying, but surely that's the choice and fault of Royal Mail?

Then we have the outlaw of working over 48 hours per week. If someone was desperate for money for example they can no longer opt-out of the 48 hour limit even if they wanted to. This is going to cause major upset in hospitals where round the clock care is needed.

I don't see how that follows? Shouldn't they be employing enough people (more jobs for those British workers who've been paying into the system all their life!), rather than relying on people working over 48 hours a week?

Unfortunately Joe Public does not seem to be aware that we are being sold down the river. We may have won the war in 1945 but now we have pretty much sold off everything we fought for.

So is that the attitude - we won the war, so 60 years on we still deserve something? It's that sort of attitude that kept European nations repeatedly going to war over the last 1,000 or so years, and the EU is the thing that's brought unprecedented peace.

I'm not saying the EU is perfect or that there aren't problems, but I don't think these things are as bad as you make out.

[motorollin]

mdwh2 wrote:
Borders open works both ways - it's nice having it easier to travel to other countries.

So the solution to lots of immigration in to one particular country is to move to another country in order to get work. How convenient :roll:

mdwh2 wrote:
It's not the employers who get the taxes.

It is if they happen to be a failing bank :-P

[mdwh2]

motorollin wrote:

So the solution to lots of immigration in to one particular country is to move to another country in order to get work. How convenient :roll:

Where did I say that? :roll:

I said that greater freedom of movement has benefits as well as disavantages.

No the solution to not having a job is not to move elsewhere - it's to look for one rather than moaning as if you are owed a job simply because you paid taxes. It's not clear how this is connected to immigration either - you forget that immigrants both create demand as consumers (and hence, more jobs) and may also create jobs directly themselves (as employers). The "immigrants steal British jobs" line is nonsensical - more people doesn't necessarily mean more unemployment. By this reasoning, companies such as America should have mass unemployment, whilst countries with small populations should have zero unemployment.

[motorollin]

Ok, I misunderstood what you were saying. I though by "borders open works both ways" you meant that if you can't find a job you're free to leave and look for one in a different country. Clearly not an option for most people.

For the record, I agree with everything you said. I just misunderstood that bit ;-)

[AccyD]

Whilst I agree with what most people say about the EU, in the sense that it is a big drain on our coffers, and that it exposes us to the effects of unwanted migration from eastern european countries (although in the midst of a recession this is less of an issue).

In addition I believe is that the bigger issue is political apathy. I'm sure that the great majority of people in the UK believe that Europe is of little benefit to us (yes you can argue that trade is heavily EU weighted but in 1973 50% of our trade was with the US - surely a pan Atlantic treaty would have made more sense then?), but how many people actually show their true feelings at election time? Hell 50% of people cant be bothered to vote at most elections!

What we need is to get people out to vote for the parties that promise a referendum on Europe, in Europe but not run by Europe (yes I know this is a Tory slogan but it can cross political boundaries). As one poster has already said, all politicians since 1973 have said they will be tough on Europe but we have yet to see the fruits of their labours, maybe its time we gave the ne Libertas party a chance?

I for one as a matter of principal vote for the most anti-EU party availiable at the EU elections, (which is often at odds with my general election choice) just to prove the point to the EU that we dont agree with their abuse of power (and expenses!).

Guys, the bigger problem is not the EU, but people's apathy towards it, if we could harness the underlying disgruntlement with the system we could change it - what is the point of surrendering our powers to a supra-nationsal orgnaisation without some tangible benefits?

[Methuselas]

You guys are more than welcome join the North American Union in 2012. :-P

Then, you can be like us American's and spell everything with a 'z' instead of an 's' or like the Canadians and end everything with 'eh' and respond with "Hoser" to everything.

Or you can be as frakked up as I am and have a Mom, who's family is from Ireland and emigrated to Candada and a Dad, who's Native American. I can't talk at all.

Besides, this will work out for all of us. My little brother has a major boner for Moto. If you guys join, then he can go visit Moto.

[motorollin]

Methuselas wrote:
Besides, this will work out for all of us. My little brother has a major boner for Moto. If you guys join, then he can go visit Moto.

I'm sure your brother can do better...

--
moto

[Methuselas]

[quote]
motorollin wrote:

Methuselas wrote:

I'm sure your brother can do better...

--
moto

I don't think so. I was perusing some old forums on here and found a picture you had posted. I was chatting with my brother (He's 24 almost 25) and when I came across your pic, I sent him the link and said you were all him.

He responded with, verbatim, "The eyeliner one is really cute"!

What's the matter, Moto? You don't like us Yanks? Not *ALL* of us look and are hung like Ron Jeremy, you know....

[motorollin]

Methuselas wrote:
I don't think so. I was perusing some old forums on here and found a picture you had posted. I was chatting with my brother (He's 24 almost 25) and when I came across your pic, I sent him the link and said you were all him.

He responded with, verbatim, "The eyeliner one is really cute"!

Thanks for pimping me out ;-) Oh and for the record, I don't wear eye-liner!

Methuselas wrote:
What's the matter, Moto? You don't like us Yanks?

Nothing of the sort. I'm just making an assumption that your brother could do better than me!

Methuselas wrote:
Not *ALL* of us look and are hung like Ron Jeremy, you know....

Who?

--
moto

[Speelgoedmannetje]

I've totally lost this thread, but:

Who?

--
moto

The American porn king.

WARNING: What has been seen CANNOT be unseen.

[Methuselas]

motorollin wrote:

Thanks for pimping me out ;-) Oh and for the record, I don't wear eye-liner!

Of course. That's what friends are for, Mate. I wouldn't mind going to see the other side of the pond again and I know he won't go by himself. :-P

motorollin wrote:
Nothing of the sort. I'm just making an assumption that your brother could do better than me!

Pssh. We need to work on the ego of yours, as my brother would put it, Sugarpants.

motorollin wrote:
Who?

Uh...Ole Donkey D!ck, himself. I won't bother, 'cos Eyso already did, but he didn't show him in his proper "character". :-o