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Amiga.org Amiga computer related discussion Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion Sam 440EP: Overpriced? Obsolete? Overestimated? Underestimated? Or just the right hardware?

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Old 09-21-2008, 04:10 PM   #1
Raffaele
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Default Sam 440EP: Overpriced? Obsolete? Overestimated? Underestimated? Or just the right hardware?

I read many things about Sam440EP.

Major part of the comments is from people who said it is obsolete, operpriced and underpowered...

I say this:

Before Sam 440 EP AmigaOS had NO HARDWARE AT ALL to run...

Now it HAS the hardware...

Sam440 EP has no horsepower?

That is not a problem for AmigaOS...

We do not need just one GHz out of 2 GHZ to run just the OS like in Windows...

We need some hardware that performs very well its tasks...

Actually then with SAM 440EP we could:

Listen music

Write some letters

Play CDs and DVDs

Read mail

Visit forums and browsing internet

Doing some FTP

Play and joke with Audio (533 MHz and 667 MHz are good enough for music)

Etcetera...

You could also doing some photoediting...

Speed it is not necessary... Amiga paint and image editing programs were ahead their time when they were created and still coul perform some good editing...

And MAINLY...

With SAM 440 EP more developers could enter the world of AMIGAOS 4.1 and start developing for it...

What we could not...

1) Doing exterme real time 3D...

Do we need it ATM?

IMHO answer is no. We do ot need it...

We could start doing it with dual core G4 MPC 8641 both core clocked at 1,42 GHZ for example, but at the moment, we need the DEVELOPMENT machines for porting better AmigaOS 4.1 to became Simmetrical Multi Processing, and on which to develop BRAND NEW Amiga Extreme 3D rendering software...

FDirst step is to achieve software, then we could also upgrade the hardware...

2) Second missing camp, Video Editing...

Do we need it at the moment?

Again NO, we do not need it, and we could not afford it due to Amiga Hardware is not so performant...

But again SAM 440 EP is here to ALLOW the developers to starting creating new software...

SAM IS NOT FOR THE COMMON USERS...

SAM IS FOR DEVELOPERS AND CORE USERS...

Don't think the fact SAM 440 EP is UNDERPOWERED...

It is here to fill some gaps with PCs, and reach the availability of hardware for Amiga...

At least it has USB 2.0 ports and with that system we could mount any device to keep SAM alive for other 20 years like elder Classic Amigas like A1200 and A4000, that now counts 20 years of lifetime...

Do not forget that first batch of SAM 440 Ep is a 10 layer motherboard...

And that ACube asks some universities here in Italy to test it, for obtain the military specs... :-o

A 10 layered motherboard it will be almost unbreakable...

SAM 440Ep Flex it will be just a 6 layers only Motherboard...

REMEMBER:

SAM440 EP is a first step again for the Amiga...

Amiga was hospitalized all these years, and laying into bed.

Now Amiga is waking up again and need to learn again to walk...

SAM 440 EP is the first right step.
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Old 09-21-2008, 04:13 PM   #2
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Default Re: Sam 440EP: Overpriced? Obsolete? Overestimated? Underestimated? Or just the right hardware?

I think it's overpriced just because they aren't mass produced like a PC motherboard. I'd totally buy a SAM 440EP if it were around $250USD. Looks like i'll have to get an Efika instead tho..
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Old 09-21-2008, 04:16 PM   #3
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Default Re: Sam 440EP: Overpriced? Obsolete? Overestimated? Underestimated? Or just the right hardware?

Yes, I think its great! :-)
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Old 09-21-2008, 04:25 PM   #4
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Default Re: Sam 440EP: Overpriced? Obsolete? Overestimated? Underestimated? Or just the right hardware?

Quote:
pan1k wrote:
I think it's overpriced just because they aren't mass produced like a PC motherboard. I'd totally buy a SAM 440EP if it were around $250USD. Looks like i'll have to get an Efika instead tho..
Efika at 99 US$ equipped with PPC MPC 5200 at 400 MHz are no more...

Next Efika will mount MPC 5121 and again at only 400 MHz...

Good enough to do all of the above computing specs... But we need to wait MorphOS 2.1 to be adapted to run on it...

How many time could we wait in Amiga? Another year?

So spit on existing hardware, and wait for the future to come...

Efika is good, we need just to wait for a good port of MorphOS on it. But there are not only MorphOS users like me... There are also those who prefer AOS 4.0.

(For example I never will buy SAM 440 EP and Efika, as I own A Pegasos II Machine, and I will trade it only for DUal Core PPC 8610 based Pegasos III or equivalent AmigaONE/SAM)

I also had the hope in the future we could see MorphOS on Sam 440 EP also, so we had had joined again all the O.S. onto a single hardware platform but in recent thread in Italian Forum, one person from ACube revealed that MorphOS Team asked too much to port MorphOS on SAM 440 EP, and also they asked to have not only royalties on single OS release, but they want also that entire price fee of the OS to being passed at their account, without any renevue for ACube.
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Old 09-21-2008, 04:34 PM   #5
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Default Re: Sam 440EP: Overpriced? Obsolete? Overestimated? Underestimated? Or just the right hardware?

Quote:
pan1k wrote:
I think it's overpriced just because they aren't mass produced like a PC motherboard. I'd totally buy a SAM 440EP if it were around $250USD. Looks like i'll have to get an Efika instead tho..
So you dont really care if you will run OS4 or MorphOS?
Gosh, and here I thought everyone were well seated in their respective camps :-)
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Old 09-21-2008, 05:08 PM   #6
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Default Re: Sam 440EP: Overpriced? Obsolete? Overestimated? Underestimated? Or just the right hardware?

@Raffaele

Quote:
also had the hope in the future we could see MorphOS on Sam 440 EP also, so we had had joined again all the O.S. onto a single hardware platform but in recent thread in Italian Forum, one person from ACube revealed that MorphOS Team asked too much to port MorphOS on SAM 440 EP, and also they asked to have not only royalties on single OS release, but they want also that entire price fee of the OS to being passed at their account, without any renevue for ACube.
When did Bill Mcewen take over control of MorphOS.
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Old 09-21-2008, 06:14 PM   #7
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Default Re: Sam 440EP: Overpriced? Obsolete? Overestimated? Underestimated? Or just the right hardware?

@Raffaele:

post the link to "what the MorphOS developers" supposedly stated. I dont like reading he-said/she-said type things.


As far as this SAM board... You're always going to have naysayers. Either is too expensive or too slow, or some sort of limitation etc.

Look at the EFIKA for example. This thing is AWESOME for $99!!!! You can use MorphOS 2.1 FOR FREE for 30 minutes, just reboot and continue. Ignore the naysayers and do your thing, I do.. I just sit back and laugh because my MOS2.1 system just rocks.
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Old 09-21-2008, 06:55 PM   #8
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Default Re: Sam 440EP: Overpriced? Obsolete? Overestimated? Underestimated? Or just the right hardware?

@kolla,

Quote:
So you dont really care if you will run OS4 or MorphOS? Gosh, and here I thought everyone were well seated in their respective camps
Well, this is Amiga.org. I think a lot of folks here just enjoy Amiga 68k and whatever flavor of PPC Amiga they care to afford. :-)
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Old 09-21-2008, 07:00 PM   #9
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Default Re: Sam 440EP: Overpriced? Obsolete? Overestimated? Underestimated? Or just the right hardware?

There are two questions here:

1) is it overpriced? Yes, by at least twice.
2) is there an alternative? No.

Clearly the two questions are related....


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Old 09-21-2008, 10:05 PM   #10
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Default Re: Sam 440EP: Overpriced? Obsolete? Overestimated? Underestimated? Or just the right hardware?

A1200 Motherboard New 78.77
Mediator TX 190.14
Ethernet Card x2 20
Spider II USB Card 50.68
Mobilty Radeon 9200 35.62
SoundBlaster 4.1 Digital 38.79
FastATA MK-III 72.08
PPC 240mhz 256meg Ebay 400?

Total 886.08.

These prices are taken from Amiga shops.
I'm sure people can find some of these bits and pieces cheaper but this gives a rough guide.
I've chosen the Mediator solution because I thought it delivered the closet specs to the Sam but of course there are other setups that could achieve something similar.

The PPC is the big stumbling block as they can't be bought new, so we are at the mercy of auctions on Ebay.
It's also slower than the Sam and the max memory is half that of the Sam as well.
I chosen 400 as the standard amount bearing in mind recent auctions although this is not an exact science when choosing a price for auctioned items.
I also chose to add the FastATA because SAM has SATA.
Without looking into it, I'm confident that SATA would be faster than the FastATA.

Currently the above system is only capable of OS4, although this may change.
Sam will use the newer OS4.1.
The above system would also take more effort to set up, and need a fairly large tower to house it.
Cooling and perhaps noise would be a consideration.
Sam is passively cooled.

So 440 for a Sam starts to look a lot better.

Ok it's dearer than wintel/mac machines or whatever, but in the Amiga market, it's not a bad price.
For a small niche market like ourselves, there is no mass production and therefore greater cost.
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Old 09-22-2008, 02:19 AM   #11
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Default Re: Sam 440EP: Overpriced? Obsolete? Overestimated? Underestimated? Or just the right hardware?

Hobby and niche products like these motherboards will always cost more. Even with them making the board appealing to other customers with the FPGA and the small form factor they won't get the economies of scales of other manufacturers.

Still if you buy one you will have modern hardware that will hopefully last a decent amount of time. In terms of hobbies, a few hundred quid every few years isn't a lot.
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Old 09-22-2008, 05:28 AM   #12
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Default Re: Sam 440EP: Overpriced? Obsolete? Overestimated? Underestimated? Or just the right hardware?

I know Amiga has never been an open system but the closed box idea is one of the many reasons Commodore failed. Only Apple has succeeded in this model and that only because of a little MP3 player...

Also we are dealing with a very tiny market. Any new Amiga will sell maybe a few hundred, so the market is protected using a hardware dongle (iboot). But buy using small manufacturers you limit yourself to overpriced underpowered hardware.

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Old 09-22-2008, 05:41 AM   #13
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Default Re: Sam 440EP: Overpriced? Obsolete? Overestimated? Underestimated? Or just the right hardware?

I think I'm going to buy this mobo! First, there's no other chance to purchase new hardware for Amiga OS 4.1 and I want AOS 4.1. :-) Yes, I've got an A1200 PPC but I'm modding it and that's costs in terms of money and time. So...
Second, I like those "crazyman" that did SAM (I saw and spoke with two of them at Pianeta Amiga in Empoli)!!! So... :-D
I hope to find all the money I need for SAM and AOS 4.1..
I'm near the half.. but I'm sure I'll reach the top soon ;-)
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Old 09-22-2008, 06:18 AM   #14
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Default Re: Sam 440EP: Overpriced? Obsolete? Overestimated? Underestimated? Or just the right hardware?

Quote:
Do not forget that first batch of SAM 440 Ep is a 10 layer motherboard...
A 10 layered motherboard it will be almost unbreakable... SAM 440Ep Flex it will be just a 6 layers only Motherboard...
The Number of layers is irrelevant. More layers does not mean better or stronger (FR4 is more ridged that Cu). The main difference is it easier to route (ie. quicker to design) and a bit more expensive to have 10 vs 6 layers. 10 layers does not mean that it is thicker. The fibre glass layers are 'normally' made thinner when more layers are used.
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Old 09-22-2008, 07:08 AM   #15
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Default Re: Sam 440EP: Overpriced? Obsolete? Overestimated? Underestimated? Or just the right hardware?

Quote:
Efika at 99 US$ equipped with PPC MPC 5200 at 400 MHz are no more...

Next Efika will mount MPC 5121 and again at only 400 MHz...

Good enough to do all of the above computing specs... But we need to wait MorphOS 2.1 to be adapted to run on it...

How many time could we wait in Amiga? Another year?
and lets us not forget that it dont fit in any modern or old pc case and it have only 128mb of ram, that is permanent, yes you read right you can not have more ram than 128mb. seriously if you buy an efika, its like throwing your money in the toilet...

save does 99$ until you have enough for the sam is a much better option.
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Old 09-22-2008, 07:44 AM   #16
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Default Re: Sam 440EP: Overpriced? Obsolete? Overestimated? Underestimated? Or just the right hardware?

@ Raffaele

Yes, current Sam 440EP is overpriced. But I have some hopes the Sam 440 Flex will have a better price tag though: Less layers, no expensive M9 chip.
Unfortunately ACube missed the chance to move to some 460 chip or at least to the 440EPx.

Anyway, for those who want to run OS 4.x Sam is currently the only choice. But it is better to catually have a choice than no choice at all. But with the current price the Sam will not become a major success. The current design is not suited for a competitive price, hopefully ACube will do a better job with the 440 flex.
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Old 09-22-2008, 07:56 AM   #17
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Default Re: Sam 440EP: Overpriced? Obsolete? Overestimated? Underestimated? Or just the right hardware?

Quote:
A1260 wrote:
Quote:
Efika at 99 US$ equipped with PPC MPC 5200 at 400 MHz are no more...

Next Efika will mount MPC 5121 and again at only 400 MHz...

Good enough to do all of the above computing specs... But we need to wait MorphOS 2.1 to be adapted to run on it...

How many time could we wait in Amiga? Another year?
and lets us not forget that it dont fit in any modern or old pc case and it have only 128mb of ram, that is permanent, yes you read right you can not have more ram than 128mb. seriously if you buy an efika, its like throwing your money in the toilet...

save does 99$ until you have enough for the sam is a much better option.
That's pure bullsh*t and FUD. The Efika is quite a nice board. It is no supercomputer though, but it is cheap, reliable and quite useable.
I have one myself which is running MorphOS 2.1 (have a Pegasos, too) and it does its job well. It is fast enough for many things. It is reliable, silent, not expensive and surprisingly fast.
I'd say it has a quite competitive price/performance ratio - at least a better one than some other ppc boards have.

btw.: The Efika2 will have a lot more RAM, SATA and usb2.0 as well as the AXE engine to speed up quite some things. And teh total cost for an Efika2 sytem will be much less than the already low cost for a Efika 5200B based solution.

Next time inform yourself before spreading FUD.
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Old 09-22-2008, 08:29 AM   #18
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Default Re: Sam 440EP: Overpriced? Obsolete? Overestimated? Underestimated? Or just the right hardware?

Of course it has less power than current PCs and costs a lot more but its better than nothing for now. The Sam440EP isn't bad at all. It has eveything you would need to run OS4 on a modern hardware. The only bottleneck is the horsepower of the CPU. So for me the next step could be a Mini-ITX Sam460EX based on the AMCC 460EX processor. Price target should be below 500 Euro for a board inkl. OS4.
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