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[Wilse]

Wolfeman wrote:

right now I'm trying to find an inexpensive Tascam DAW controller for cheap on ebay. I've been seeing the US-2400 for as low as $600... hmmmm

I can heartily recommend the Yamaha 01x DAW controller:
SOS review
Got mine for £300 on eBay.
Firewire DAW controller and also works as an audio and MIDI i/f if you want it to. Possibly the best thing I've ever bought.

@Wilse: The usb on a mac for some reason is bloody slow.

That's as may be but it's still plenty fast enough for audio and MIDI work, as long as you don't go daft.

ever try to hook up a usb hard drive

Funnily enough, I've had to switch my external HD off of FW and onto USB as it was causing problems having it and the 01x on the same chain. Since it's been on USB everything has been much smoother.

The strange thing is, I heard all these horror stories about USB and duly bought FW kit but then had to use some USB stuff and my experience has been completely at odds with conventional opinion. (A lot of which I've now come to the conclusion is a load of snobby, old horsefeathers and to be taken with a pinch of salt.)

Anyway, I think these things depend on what individual set up you have and are also rather subjective but I've been pleasantly surprised by USB since being forced to use it and now realise that you don't have to go FW for a decent audio/MIDI setup.

For MIDI it's fine and even some audio interfaces .

Which is exactly what this thread is about so no need to shy away from USB for audio purposes.

[Wolfeman]

@wilse: it's not horsefeathers at all, but it seems you're not experiencing the problems most of us have or you're not noticing them.

Are you saying you're using your external HD for your audio workspace? how many tracks do you record and playback at once? Have you not noticed how slow copying files to and from any usb drive is when compared to firewire or pc usb? I simply can't believe you wouldn't notice the slowness. What mac do you have again? is it PPC or Intel? perhaps that is the answer?

[amigaksi]

>by ferrellsl on 2008/8/9 14:34:03

>It isn't illogical at all. Have you considered what it will cost this man to buy all new PC software and learn all new software? I'm sure it's a rather expensive option in both time and money do this. And no one said the PC stuff was better. And I'm sure he'd like to use his existing data files as well.

Okay, I did see some cheap midi stuff for PCs. And he was considering other software packages and it is easier to get or write a utility to convert from Amiga MIDI to PC MIDI.

>I opted to do the same thing. I simply wasn't willing to throw out my software investment, buy new PC software that wasn't as familiar or as capable and then learn the new software.

>It was much easier and cheaper to get an XP box and WinUAE.

But now you're assuming the results are equivalent or tolerable. You can't really go by one's experience sometimes since there are hardware differences between PCs and Amigas and it's not that Amiga hardware is a subset of PC hardware. Heck, a few hundred years ago people observed and declared that the earth was flat. Mirages look like real water. Better to prove it deductively so you know what you are doing.

[Wolfeman]

wow, I was looking on google for some first hand advice and setup directions for doing amiga music through emulation and there just really isn't much out there:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&q=amiga +emulation+music+bars+pipes&btnG=Search

My guess is that due to the lack of info, that it isn't a popular choice but that doesn't mean it can't be done. My experience with it starts and ends with gaming.

hey, maybe you can break new ground and figure out how to do it for others to follow.

@bloodline: you mentioned you "did a bit of work in UAE with OctaMED", can you elaborate on how you set that up and made it work? was there any external midi triggering involved?

[the_leander]

amigaksi wrote:
>by ferrellsl on 2008/8/9 14:34:03

>It isn't illogical at all. Have you considered what it will cost this man to buy all new PC software and learn all new software? I'm sure it's a rather expensive option in both time and money do this. And no one said the PC stuff was better. And I'm sure he'd like to use his existing data files as well.

Okay, I did see some cheap midi stuff for PCs. And he was considering other software packages and it is easier to get or write a utility to convert from Amiga MIDI to PC MIDI.

Why would you need to convert anything? Midi, the last time I checked was a fairly mature and stable standard. A midi file from an Amiga should run just fine in a PC with the requisite software reader.

Certainly I've played plenty of both MIDI and MOD files made on amigas using PC software, on BeOS, Linux and Windows over the years without issue.

amigaksi wrote:
But now you're assuming the results are equivalent or tolerable. You can't really go by one's experience sometimes since there are hardware differences between PCs and Amigas and it's not that Amiga hardware is a subset of PC hardware. Heck, a few hundred years ago people observed and declared that the earth was flat. Mirages look like real water. Better to prove it deductively so you know what you are doing.

Well, here's the thing, you've already been told by a professional musician that it is comparable, indeed having had both real and emulated Amigas running side by side, soundwise there was no difference.

So, I have to ask, do you have a point in this paragraph? Because I for one can't see it.

Music was one artform I could never create, painting, drawing, writing, no issue, but music.. always eluded me :-(

[spihunter]

Are you saying you're using your external HD for your audio workspace? how many tracks do you record and playback at once? Have you not noticed how slow copying files to and from any usb drive is when compared to firewire or pc usb? I simply can't believe you wouldn't notice the slowness. What mac do you have again? is it PPC or Intel? perhaps that is the answer?

I have an external USB and Firewire hardrive hooked to my MacBook and I dont see these 50% slower USB speeds that you speak of. I had a similar set of USB and Firewire drives on my old G4 Mac Mini and never saw these slow downs compared to similar drives hooked to my PC. I also have a USB Audio interface hooked to the same bus.

I'm no expert but I think pro folks using Macs would have noticed a 50% slow down on USB drives. I dont see it.

[NoFastMem]

Wolfeman wrote:
@bloodline: Well, dude, you're obviously no Mac fan, and that's fine, there are PC people and Mac people but if you look at benchmark tests between G4s and 1Ghz era PC processors, the mac wins every time.

You did read the posts where he repeatedly recommended a Mac, right? ;-)

I think the point is more that the Core 2 Macs now pee all over the PPC line. Now if I came across a deal on a G5 tower I might bite but otherwise... No.

I did a lot of recording with GarageBand on my old PowerBook but it wouldn't have dealt with Logic 8 the way I use that (on a 2.4GHz Core 2 iMac). If you're using live effects you can always use more processing power.

@Wilse: The usb on a mac for some reason is bloody slow. ever try to hook up a usb hard drive or disc burner? omg it's awful. let alone a usb flash drive, it always takes twice as long to copy files and even on my dual processor G5.

For MIDI it's fine and even some audio interfaces but for my money and time the firewire is faster and more reliable.

I've never found it that bad, but I wonder if your experience is that file transfers aren't buffered the way they are in Windows (they changed that for Vista, everyone complained and it was switched back for SP1). That's no measure of the Mac's USB performance for audio hardware, etc., much as I prefer Firewire gear too. (I'm also on the lookout for a proper interface... Recording through on-board off an analog Yamaha mixer at the moment.)

[bloodline]

NoFastMem wrote:

You did read the posts where he repeatedly recommended a Mac, right? ;-)

No, I hate Mac!!! I'm gonna throw all of my expensive Macs away... I shall burn my Logic 8 package... Curse you iPhone... the bin for you!! iPod, I deny thee!!! I must expunge Apple from my house...

I think the point is more that the Core 2 Macs now pee all over the PPC line. Now if I came across a deal on a G5 tower I might bite but otherwise... No.

I did a lot of recording with GarageBand on my old PowerBook but it wouldn't have dealt with Logic 8 the way I use that (on a 2.4GHz Core 2 iMac). If you're using live effects you can always use more processing power.

Quite right... if you are just using Logic as a multitrack recorder, then a nice fast Hard Drive is far more important than a fast CPU... but as an electronic artist, it's rare for me to have a channel with less than 8 effects inserts... and given the average number of channels per song on my last Album was 30, you can see why I need the power of a modern dual core intel chip not some old G4... and this does not include all the bus routing I like to use...

I also have the need to have my set up totally portable, which means laptop... and the Powerful PPC chips are just too hot and electricity hungry for a laptop.

I've never found it that bad, but I wonder if your experience is that file transfers aren't buffered the way they are in Windows (they changed that for Vista, everyone complained and it was switched back for SP1). That's no measure of the Mac's USB performance for audio hardware, etc., much as I prefer Firewire gear too. (I'm also on the lookout for a proper interface... Recording through on-board off an analog Yamaha mixer at the moment.)

While USB2 is totally horrible for Hard drives... audio interfaces work fine, but the USB does not provide enough power to run the interface, so Firewire is far better. I've noticed that Firewire Audio interfaces have slightly lower latency, but I don't think this is due the bus, but more because Firewire devices are more expensive and thus better quality units (as manufactures can afford to use better components).


Punkie: This will be my next audio interface...

http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/ultralite-mk3

[NoFastMem]

bloodline wrote:
While USB2 is totally horrible for Hard drives... audio interfaces work fine, but the USB does not provide enough power to run the interface, so Firewire is far better. I've noticed that Firewire Audio interfaces have slightly lower latency, but I don't think this is due the bus, but more because Firewire devices are more expensive and thus better quality units (as manufactures can afford to use better components).

Maybe better drivers as well... You wouldn't believe the difference using the onboard iMac sound with Windows vs. OSX. All down to the software.

Punkie: This will be my next audio interface...

http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/ultralite-mk3

Looks nice! I dunno about only having two XLRs, though. I'm recording the GCSE performances and other things at the school now and in practice it boils down to having a few mics set up and occasionally DI-ing a keyboard. Guess it's only the price of a couple of balanced TRS leads, but I dunno.

I think I need something I can mix live with if need be. (i.e. with real knobs.) Especially since my work laptop confines me to Windows land, leaving me out on a limb with Audacity and a prayer if things start effing up.

[amigaksi]

>by the_leander on 2008/8/9 22:28:28

>Quote:
amigaksi wrote:
>by ferrellsl on 2008/8/9 14:34:03

>>...And I'm sure he'd like to use his existing data files as well.

>Why would you need to convert anything? Midi, the last time I checked was a fairly mature and stable standard. A midi file from an Amiga should run just fine in a PC with the requisite software reader.

It was ferrellsl who suggested that he wanted to use his existing files so if there's no conversion involved then his point is moot.

>Certainly I've played plenty of both MIDI and MOD files made on amigas using PC software, on BeOS, Linux and Windows over the years without issue.

Later, you write:

>Music was one artform I could never create, painting, drawing, writing, no issue, but music.. always eluded me

"Without issue" from non-music person.

>> amigaksi wrote:
But now you're assuming the results are equivalent or tolerable. You can't really go by one's experience sometimes since there are hardware differences between PCs and Amigas and it's not that Amiga hardware is a subset of PC hardware. Heck, a few hundred years ago people observed and declared that the earth was flat. Mirages look like real water. Better to prove it deductively so you know what you are doing.

>Well, here's the thing, you've already been told by a professional musician that it is comparable, indeed having had both real and emulated Amigas running side by side, soundwise there was no difference.

>So, I have to ask, do you have a point in this paragraph? Because I for one can't see it.

You did miss the point. One person experiencing the music to be sounding the same does not prove that every combination music produced will sound the same nor does it prove that it is the same even for that instance for all people. Even MP3 and uncompressed linear audio sounds the same but they are in fact different. To prove it's the same on both platforms, you need to prove through the hardware resources used on the both, not by someone's subjective taste. For example, you can try to prove that there is no drift or distortion in the timing. So the analogy that a few hundred years ago the earth was declared to be flat applies. I am sure the EXPERTs back then also claimed earth to be flat that's why Columbus had a hard time. What happens if someone comes hundreds of years later and states there's this difference with a certain music. Mirage example also applies because you can be listening to music that is actually not the original but a distorted version but without a deeper analysis you take it to be the same.

[Wilse]

Wolfeman wrote:
@wilse: it's not horsefeathers at all, but it seems you're not experiencing the problems most of us have or you're not noticing them.

Which is exactly my point; this is mostly subjective and I'm not experiencing it so to me it *is* horsefeathers.
(Then again, perhaps it's me. I ate olives for years because my peers insisted they are delicious. One day I realised the things are absolutely bogging. Never touched them since, though everyone else I know still loves them.)

Are you saying you're using your external HD for your audio workspace?

Sometimes, yes. And when I do, it works just fine. However, I usually try to bring whichever project I'm working on over to the internal drive, again, only because of conventional hearsay, not due to any personal experience.

how many tracks do you record and playback at once?

Depends. usually between 10-20.

Have you not noticed how slow copying files to and from any usb drive is when compared to firewire or pc usb?

Nope.

I simply can't believe you wouldn't notice the slowness.

Well, if you don't believe me there isn't really a great deal I can do about that, other than invite you round to see for yourself. ;-)

What mac do you have again? is it PPC or Intel? perhaps that is the answer?

Nah, sorry - I have both: iBook G4, 1.33GHz and Macbook core duo 2GHz.

[Wilse]

spihunter wrote:

I have an external USB and Firewire hardrive hooked to my MacBook and I dont see these 50% slower USB speeds that you speak of.

Not just me then.

[the_leander]

amigaksi wrote:

>Certainly I've played plenty of both MIDI and MOD files made on amigas using PC software, on BeOS, Linux and Windows over the years without issue.

Later, you write:

>Music was one artform I could never create, painting, drawing, writing, no issue, but music.. always eluded me

"Without issue" from non-music person.

Key word in the sentence is played.

But hey what would I know about sound, afterall I only used to setup and calibrate surround sound systems...

And Hi Def TV's.. Which I have to be honest was more difficult.

amigaksi wrote:

>So, I have to ask, do you have a point in this paragraph? Because I for one can't see it.

You did miss the point. One person experiencing the music to be sounding the same does not prove that every combination music produced will sound the same nor does it prove that it is the same even for that instance for all people. Even MP3 and uncompressed linear audio sounds the same but they are in fact different. To prove it's the same on both platforms, you need to prove through the hardware resources used on the both, not by someone's subjective taste. For example, you can try to prove that there is no drift or distortion in the timing. So the analogy that a few hundred years ago the earth was declared to be flat applies. I am sure the EXPERTs back then also claimed earth to be flat that's why Columbus had a hard time. What happens if someone comes hundreds of years later and states there's this difference with a certain music. Mirage example also applies because you can be listening to music that is actually not the original but a distorted version but without a deeper analysis you take it to be the same.

Which is great and all but you realise there are differences even in different variants of the same models of an Amiga, right? Which kind of leaves your point completely moot.

As near as damnit is all you will ever get, because even between different variants and models of the Amiga because there are differences.

For instance, just on the A3000 there were something like 9 different variants, all with subtly different timings and all with their own unique quirks, for instance my particular one was one of only 3 models that could actually boot up without the need for a scsi hard drive to be present. Then there are differences in the chips themselves - some socketed and others surface mounted. All of these things could throw off the results at the level of testing you are on about.

[gertsy]

Have a look at Reason.

http://www.propellerheads.se/

Superb sound.

you need a beefy PC though.

[poktis]

Don't hesitate to use old applications coming from the amiga on your pc, without emulation, for your pleasure. Among them, try the legendary Symphony tracker, available with a 3D background for Win32 and its amazing effects, in a single .exe that could be copied on a floppy disk. Mail me if you use it, just for fun Two users at least here lol/

In a pro way, try Reason (a lot of studios create songs only with this tool and master them with Protools). Don't forget :
- protools (avid) to edit/master and exchange audio projects and say that you're a pro (the point of protools LOL)
- cubase (steinberg) or nuendo (from the same editor) if you have to work seriously with video files. Nuendo uses the cubase audio engine and offers more slots to load virtual instruments. Midi implementation in steinberg products is very nice.
- if you want to keep the amiga spirit, you could buy Samplitude (Magix).

Cubase could be your new BnP.

Good luck and keep your migs.