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Old 09-08-2007, 03:41 PM   #21
stopthegop
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Default Re: Free Money

One big problem with our system is with online "verification" when using a debit or credit card. You go to all the trouble of filling in these stupid forms that are supposedly "secure" and it turns out you can enter totally randon bullsh1t for "name", "address", "email", "province", and "occupation". No comparison is done on any of these fields to verify the initiator is the actual owner of the account. At most the software might check the zip code against the one on file -- only because its easy. This isn't true of all merchants' websites, but a damn lot of them. The banks know this, too. They have just declared fraud a fixed expense (like rent) and raised fees to hide it from shareholders.

How about this scenario? You setup a credit card to be paid automatically every month from your checking account. All the data you enter is valid (name, address, ssn, phone number, work, etc..). When you enter the bank acct. you accidently make a typo and inadvertantly enter the wrong account number. Since their crappy software doesn't even check the name you enter with the name on the acct, something like that could easily happen! And probably has. IMO, US banks get exactly what they deserve with so-called "identity theft" cases.
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Old 09-08-2007, 04:08 PM   #22
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Default Re: Free Money

What Mr. Piru means is that his bank does not allow him to purchase things online. Piru is banished from the entire world internet economy.

What the various US posters mean is that they are allowed to purchase things online using their bank account.

Everything has advantages and disadvantages.
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Old 09-08-2007, 04:14 PM   #23
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Default Re: Free Money

@JosephC
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What Mr. Piru means is that his bank does not allow him to purchase things online. Piru is banished from the entire world internet economy.
I didn't say CC wasn't available.

It has absolutely nothing to do with my account number, however.
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Old 09-09-2007, 01:48 PM   #24
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Default Re: Free Money

@StoptheGap : that's a US and caraiban island problem.

@Piru : can you give all the details on your credit card ? (just the long number, the exp date, and the last 3 numbers at back)

For a bank transfert in France, you need to go to your "guichet" and show of proof of identity. You can't steal the money the way you describe. You need a "manuscrit" authorization signed by the account owner with a proof of identity of him and you.

Since the Dark Age, we use and still use a lot "cheque" ;-) and there were very few problems.

Because Bank transfert is quite taxed.
3.5e for the transfert (if is inland or in europe in a partner bank or the same bank !)
5.10e for the "treatment" (if is in europe not in a partner bank or if 1 information is missing or wrong !)
and some more bank fees depending the amount :-o
Add 8e more if it's not in Europe ... :-o

For the CreditCard transfert, you need just the long number, the exp date, and the last 3 numbers at back.
And the top of the top, some banks take fees if you use your card more than 5 time in a month to take cash in an another bank.
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Old 09-09-2007, 03:42 PM   #25
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Default Re: Free Money

Quote:
Belial6 wrote:
The US banks are definitely making money of of fraud somewhere. All you have to do to know that is look at how heavily they push the "Check Cards". Check cards are basically credit cards that automatically withdraw the money every charge immediately after use.

Here in the US, they even run ads that show how difficult it is to use a check when you don't have any ID, and that with a Check Card, you can just swipe the card and and go. They are even advertising how you don't even need to sign a receipt now.

It amazes me how many people that I would have thought were mentally capable, happily accept these cards from their banks.
In Norway, and most places in Europe AFAIK, we have PIN codes on these cards...
No/Wrong PIN = No money
(unless you yank out the phone line from the card terminal, in which case you'll have to sign the receipt and show ID).
Correct PIN basically serves as the signature.

Oh, and btw: My bank has no fees whatsoever, except a 30 EUR yearly fee for the Debit/VISA card.
Usage of the card is free, so is paying your bills, transferring money, etc...

Cheques are only used by old people every now and then, debit cards have been common since the early 90's
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Old 09-09-2007, 06:07 PM   #26
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Default Re: Free Money

Quote:
(unless you yank out the phone line from the card terminal, in which case you'll have to sign the receipt and show ID)
You still need the correct pin code... If not, the card will decline the purchase. Even when the phone line is unplugged...
In norway, at least... That i know for sure...

About security:
I was buying some airsoft equipment from japan, using visa.
The total amount of money was about, 1400 USD...
I got a phone call from VISA Norway asking if the transfer really was legit... That surprised me...
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Old 09-09-2007, 10:16 PM   #27
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Default Re: Free Money

Quote:
pyrre wrote:
Quote:
(unless you yank out the phone line from the card terminal, in which case you'll have to sign the receipt and show ID)
You still need the correct pin code... If not, the card will decline the purchase. Even when the phone line is unplugged...
In norway, at least... That i know for sure...

About security:
I was buying some airsoft equipment from japan, using visa.
The total amount of money was about, 1400 USD...
I got a phone call from VISA Norway asking if the transfer really was legit... That surprised me...
Doesn't surprise me, $1,400.00 is a hell of a lot of money for toy guns dude. What did you do, buy a few for every kid in your neighborhood?
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Old 09-09-2007, 10:43 PM   #28
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Default Re: Free Money

Quote:
Piru wrote:
Maybe I should explain how "online banking" works here in Finland.

In order to get access to my account you'd need to know my user id. It is no way related to my account number or any personal information.

Second, you'd need to know my password. It is no way related to my account number or any personal information.

Once you've logged in, in order to do any transaction you'd need to know challenge-response number from a key list (say, "enter security ID #75"). Needless to say, the lists are totally random and I have the only copy. One number is used only once. Once all the numbers are used I can order a new list (and the numbers on that particular list are only activated at that time). Note that the list itself is useless unless if you know the user id and password, too.
My bank in Turkey started something similar in these lines. Whenever I do a transaction online, they send a confirmation number to my cell phone by SMS. The transaction doesn't take place unless I enter the confirmation number in 15 minutes.

and no, you can't change the cell phone number on file without personal application (to the bank).

Now, although this feels quite secure, it rendered online banking totally useless for me, cause my cell phone doesn't work here in japan :headwall: :headwall: :headwall: (Turkey uses GSM like most of europe while japan has CDMA, no possibility of roaming)
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Old 09-10-2007, 05:00 AM   #29
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Default Re: Free Money

If you know enough personal details and some basic bank account details it really shouldn't be too hard to steal someone's money.

Just ring the bank and tell them you have forgotten your internet username/password. After a series of questions about 'you' they will reset the password.

So I would agree that putting part of the bank details in public view is not a good idea.
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Old 09-10-2007, 05:20 AM   #30
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Default Re: Free Money

If I stuck a gun in somebody's face, I bet I could get all their money and I wouldn't even need the codes!
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Old 09-10-2007, 05:31 AM   #31
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Default Re: Free Money

No bank (where I'm from) will do such a thing by the phone.

Piru's bank sounds similar to mine. When I log in to my bank, I have to state my birthdate+social security number (DDMMYYYYxxxxx), my personal password and the current validation code from the bank (four digits, changes for every login). These codes are either snailmailed to you, or generated using your credit card and a hardware dongle.

Then, when you're about to commit a transaction, you have to punch in another validation code from the bank.

I think your odds are better looking for an exploit of some sort.
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Old 09-10-2007, 05:48 AM   #32
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Default Re: Free Money

Quote:
If I stuck a gun in somebody's face, I bet I could get all their money and I wouldn't even need the codes!
And people carry so much cash on themselves these days!
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Old 09-10-2007, 05:53 AM   #33
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Default Re: Free Money

Quote:
Piru's bank sounds similar to mine. When I log in to my bank, I have to state my birthdate+social security number (DDMMYYYYxxxxx), my personal password and the current validation code from the bank (four digits, changes for every login).
Changes every log in? Holy crap that sounds a bit over the top. There does become a point were more security is not a good thing.

Assuming you know a 'current' address. It is easy to also state on the phone that you have changed address.
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Old 09-10-2007, 06:40 AM   #34
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Default Re: Free Money

Not with any of my banks in the uk.

You need to know your Intenet Banking ID. Plus a six digit security code, DOB .

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Old 09-10-2007, 07:04 AM   #35
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Default Re: Free Money

Quote:
You need to know your Intenet Banking ID. Plus a six digit security code, DOB .
It is not uncommon for people to lose/forget there ID/sec codes. How sure are you that someone knowing enough basic details about you; couldn't get on the phone and convince the person on the other end that they are 'you'. Change your mailing address and get a new codes.

I was surprised with the ease I was able to get a new internet password all just over the phone.
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Old 09-10-2007, 07:07 AM   #36
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Default Re: Free Money

@nBit7
Quote:
Changes every log in? Holy crap that sounds a bit over the top.
That's the whole point of the challenge-response system. Even if your login and password leaks, that final lock is still at place preventing abuse.

It'll take that any day compared to losing money.
Quote:
There does become a point were more security is not a good thing.
Sure. This isn't one of those cases however.
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Old 09-10-2007, 07:15 AM   #37
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Default Re: Free Money

@nBit7
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How sure are you that someone knowing enough basic details about you; couldn't get on the phone and convince the person on the other end that they are 'you'. Change your mailing address and get a new codes.
Resetting the password requires physical visit to the bank (at least here). Also, they'll never send the login/pass over mail (except the initial login/pass when you create the account).

Only thing you get via email are the challenge/response lists (which are useless without the login/pass).

Believe me, they have thought these things over.
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Old 09-10-2007, 07:32 AM   #38
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Default Re: Free Money

Quote:
Once you've logged in, in order to do any transaction you'd need to know challenge-response number from a key list (say, "enter security ID #75"). Needless to say, the lists are totally random and I have the only copy.
Of course that doesn't stop people from creating scam sites, where front page looks exactly like the banks official site (with a slightly different address)

Then it asks you to "confirm" all your personal information, including "10 next keycodes" (which should be more than enough to empty your account)

And yes, too many people still fall for that. Luckily some people created software, that will fill those scam sites with random information, thus making it harder to locate the details of real people.

Personally I don't consider this a security problem, rather some users being way too stupid. But I guess it was becouse of that, that my bank started asking the codes in random order.
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Old 09-12-2007, 04:23 PM   #39
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Default Re: Free Money

Quote:
Belial6 wrote:
The US banks are definitely making money of of fraud somewhere. All you have to do to know that is look at how heavily they push the "Check Cards". Check cards are basically credit cards that automatically withdraw the money every charge immediately after use.

Here in the US, they even run ads that show how difficult it is to use a check when you don't have any ID, and that with a Check Card, you can just swipe the card and and go. They are even advertising how you don't even need to sign a receipt now.

It amazes me how many people that I would have thought were mentally capable, happily accept these cards from their banks.
The banks don't make money off fraud, but Visa and MasterCard make money off merchant fees (or at least flat merchant terminal fees) for accepting debit and credit transactions. Shifting more transactions to plastic from cash makes the service more valuable -- imagine running a cash-only restaurant these days -- and encourages more merchants to sign on.

As to the (in)security of direct transfers, my understanding of the problem is that the system which has become commonplace originated as a 'hack' to get around exorbitant wire fees by using the ACH (automated clearinghouse) network built for clearing checks between banks bidirectionally.

The security is via "limited" access to the ACH network, meaning PayPal and its predecessor services (payroll direct-deposit providers, etc) had to somehow get authorized to participate. Presumably you have to be 'sort of a bank.' But when any 'sort of a bank' lets anyone plug in any account details and start making transfers...

The safeguards on the new RFID credit and debit cards (PayPass, etc) are apparently the same: "limited" access to the merchant network, meaning a fair chunk of the safety is in authentication of the merchant terminal and crypto between the merchant terminal and the bank. As far as I can tell, they are trying to confuse matters by talking about the TLS-type crypto between the terminal and the bank as if it applies to the terminal<->tag communication; apparently some of the cards are just using a dumb transponder with the equivalent of magstripe information.

Of course, now you don't need to sign a slip for credit-network purchases under $25, either.


Further, in the US we apparently have a new federal statute that might as well be called the Phishing Enablement Act -- one of my banks now requires me to enter my full card and PIN number (along with username and password) to obtain a cookie 'authenticating' the machine I'm connecting from; another opts for a slightly more sane challenge/response "Security Questions" scheme, but with fixed questions that entail static personal information: "What is your grandfather's name?" "Where were you born?" "What was your first car?"

The problems here are so awful that I don't even know where to begin. I need to find the actual law and see what it actually requires, but these systems seem to benefit:
- Advertisers, who benefit when more users are forced to accept cookies; and
- Banks, who don't benefit from phishing, but do benefit in fees every time an inconvenienced user doesn't check his balance because of the new hoops and overdraws his account.

Apparently overdraft fees compensate the risk of fraud, especially since they *are* lucrative for the banks and the banks' insurers probably cover the costs of fraud (or the banks' own profits do, giving them the complacency to whine about the problem without doing anything concrete about it).
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Old 09-12-2007, 06:40 PM   #40
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Default Re: Free Money

Quote:
Apparently overdraft fees compensate the risk of fraud, especially since they *are* lucrative for the banks and the banks' insurers probably cover the costs of fraud (or the banks' own profits do, giving them the complacency to whine about the problem without doing anything concrete about it).
Precisely
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