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Old 05-30-2006, 11:56 AM   #21
jkirk
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Default Re: At least 1000(!) British soldiers have deserted since start of Iraq war!!!

Quote:
I'd like to add that I have no sympathy nor time for ignorant people. Ignorance is an easily cured disease.
does an ignorant person know he/she is ignorant? how do you prove that? hell what is truth? how do you know you found it? how do you know an ignorant person has the ability to find the truth? is it ignorant to think ignorance is curable? how do you prove it?
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Old 05-30-2006, 12:22 PM   #22
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My ignorance lay in the reasons that one could be ordered to shoot.
But surely one joins the military knowing full well that they will do everything they are ordered to do without question?

I know you are not a liar Robert, but I can't believe that you would be so naive to think otherwise.

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A somewhat ignorant statement itself, if I may be so bold.


Ignorance is laziness, pure and simple. I have no time for the lazy.
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Old 05-30-2006, 12:23 PM   #23
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Default Re: At least 1000(!) British soldiers have deserted since start of Iraq war!!!

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jkirk wrote:
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I'd like to add that I have no sympathy nor time for ignorant people. Ignorance is an easily cured disease.
does an ignorant person know he/she is ignorant? how do you prove that? hell what is truth? how do you know you found it? how do you know an ignorant person has the ability to find the truth? is it ignorant to think ignorance is curable? how do you prove it?
Self education.
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Old 05-30-2006, 04:09 PM   #24
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Default Re: At least 1000(!) British soldiers have deserted since start of Iraq war!!!

following up on what jkirk said, how does anyone know what 'ignorance' is?
Every way of looking at life is flawed, should any one be more flawed than another?
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Old 05-30-2006, 05:50 PM   #25
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Default Re: At least 1000(!) British soldiers have deserted since start of Iraq war!!!

Quote:
nicholas wrote:
But surely one joins the military knowing full well that they will do everything they are ordered to do without question?

I know you are not a liar Robert, but I can't believe that you would be so naive to think otherwise.
I had no problem with having to follow orders. Rather, I had misguided trust that the military would not be misused.
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Old 05-30-2006, 06:04 PM   #26
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Default Re: At least 1000(!) British soldiers have deserted since start of Iraq war!!!

Anyone thinking of joining the army might consider a quick game of paintball first.

When I went recently I spent half a day running through trees getting picked off by groups of hardcore paintballers.

No matter how hard you try to evade being shot or how feirce you return fire you will inevtiably get 'injured' or taken out.

Now apply this crossfire and skirmish scenario to real war with real munitions, coupled with aerial bombardment, nerve agents and possible nuclear exchange and you should be getting a pretty good idea that the only fairly safe place to be is at No.10 or the Whitehouse.

I don't mean to tarnish all US and UK soldiers with the same brush though, there still are 'a few good men' but Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo and the recent massacre stories by US troops and the Deepcut Army Barracks recruits in the UK being bullied to death just strike a chord with me.
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Old 05-30-2006, 06:27 PM   #27
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Default Re: At least 1000(!) British soldiers have deserted since start of Iraq war!!!

Quote:
Wilse wrote:
Do you think I'm lying?
No, what I meant is I disagree with you...

Quote:
Anyone who's semi-intelligent should have figured out.....
Yeah, well - *SHOULD* have doesn't mean *will* have.[/quote]But you didn't enlist, so why are you so upset? I wasn't talking about the Wilse's in the world, but about the Fades & Smerfs.

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Decide for yourself whether my former ignorance marks me down as less than semi-intelligent but the main conflicts my country got involved in during my life were the Falklands and the first Gulf war.
Well I too was once fascinated by all things military and even stated that I would enlist, but by about the time I was in highschool the Gulf War happened and it was then that I realized that it's all BS.

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My Naiive faith in British 'morality' no longer exists but to smugly assert that everyone of enlistment age is also aware of the truth makes you almost as naiive as I used to be.
I think the evidence is out there and anyone who takes a second to look will find it. There are many things that draw people to the military, and for some it's just the thrill of it all, while others join because they simply have no other choice. Luckily I did have a choice and I assume so did you.

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Although defending one's country and way of life is an honorable thing, that's not something anyone in any of the Western militaries should expect to do. Instead you'll be protecting "interests", and not those of your own. Why anyone would choose to become a pawn is beyond me. No thanks!
I completely agree with this now. Not when I was a teenager, though.
Perhaps you're right. There are many reasons why militaries want to recruit boys before they're properly educated in secondary schools.

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Old 05-31-2006, 05:20 AM   #28
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Default Re: At least 1000(!) British soldiers have deserted since start of Iraq war!!!

Quote:
nicholas wrote:
Quote:
jkirk wrote:
Quote:
I'd like to add that I have no sympathy nor time for ignorant people. Ignorance is an easily cured disease.
does an ignorant person know he/she is ignorant? how do you prove that? hell what is truth? how do you know you found it? how do you know an ignorant person has the ability to find the truth? is it ignorant to think ignorance is curable? how do you prove it?
Self education.
and if what they learn is wrong it is still ignorance.
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Old 05-31-2006, 07:28 AM   #29
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Default Re: At least 1000(!) British soldiers have deserted since start of Iraq war!!!

Yes, because as I said ignorance==laziness, and one should strive to always be seeking the truth. Education doesn't stop, it is an ongoing process.
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Old 05-31-2006, 08:58 AM   #30
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Default Re: At least 1000(!) British soldiers have deserted since start of Iraq war!!!

Quote:
nicholas wrote:
Yes, because as I said ignorance==laziness, and one should strive to always be seeking the truth. Education doesn't stop, it is an ongoing process.
how do you define if a person is lazy or just misinformed?

you see a person can seek the truth and think they found it and it still can be wrong.
take what you have just said ignorance==laziness. that is an ignorant statement because you are not taking into account a person who is actively seeking the truth but does not have access to(or has not found)documents, theories, etc that is in conflict with his/her known truth.

also if a person has found the truth(in a certain situation) and stops looking for the truth(in that same situation) can also be labeled as ignorant according to your statement.
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Old 05-31-2006, 11:07 AM   #31
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Default Re: At least 1000(!) British soldiers have deserted since start of Iraq war!!!

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jkirk wrote:
Quote:
nicholas wrote:
Yes, because as I said ignorance==laziness, and one should strive to always be seeking the truth. Education doesn't stop, it is an ongoing process.
how do you define if a person is lazy or just misinformed?

you see a person can seek the truth and think they found it and it still can be wrong.
take what you have just said ignorance==laziness. that is an ignorant statement because you are not taking into account a person who is actively seeking the truth but does not have access to(or has not found)documents, theories, etc that is in conflict with his/her known truth.

also if a person has found the truth(in a certain situation) and stops looking for the truth(in that same situation) can also be labeled as ignorant according to your statement.
As I said, education never stops. If someone finds "the truth" about a particular subject then why would they stop educating themselves.

Only the lazy would do that.

Lazy people should be sent to the salt mines. ;-)
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Old 05-31-2006, 11:37 AM   #32
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Default Re: At least 1000(!) British soldiers have deserted since start of Iraq war!!!

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If someone finds "the truth" about a particular subject then why would they stop educating themselves.
why would a person keep learning how a pencil works when the could spend more time learning how a pen works?


NOTE:this was a gross simplification of life but hope the point is clear.

btw: what you associate to ignorant i associate with idiot.
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Old 05-31-2006, 04:20 PM   #33
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Default Re: At least 1000(!) British soldiers have deserted since start of Iraq war!!!

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jkirk wrote:
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If someone finds "the truth" about a particular subject then why would they stop educating themselves.
why would a person keep learning how a pencil works when the could spend more time learning how a pen works?


NOTE:this was a gross simplification of life but hope the point is clear.

btw: what you associate to ignorant i associate with idiot.
:-)

But in my opinion (Putting my teacher head on time), no one (other than people with brain damage) is so stupid that they cannot find out facts for themselves.

These peoples ignorance is caused by sheer bone idle laziness.

Shoot them all. ;-)
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Old 06-01-2006, 05:12 AM   #34
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Default Re: At least 1000(!) British soldiers have deserted since start of Iraq war!!!

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These peoples ignorance is caused by sheer bone idle laziness.
i am not saying that is never the case. but this is too general a statement as not everyone fits in that category.

anyway we are waay off topic anyhow so let's just agree to disagree. ok?

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Old 06-01-2006, 06:42 AM   #35
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Default Re: At least 1000(!) British soldiers have deserted since start of Iraq war!!!

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These peoples ignorance is caused by sheer bone idle laziness.
i am not saying that is never the case. but this is too general a statement as not everyone fits in that category.

anyway we are waay off topic anyhow so let's just agree to disagree. ok?
Do we agree that ignorance is a choice?
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Old 06-01-2006, 07:07 AM   #36
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Default Re: At least 1000(!) British soldiers have deserted since start of Iraq war!!!

Quote:
nicholas wrote:

Do we agree that ignorance is a choice?
In some cases it is but not all.
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Old 06-02-2006, 03:41 PM   #37
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Default Re: At least 1000(!) British soldiers have deserted since start of Iraq war!!!

People don't enlist because they are ignorant, they do so because they have little self esteem and strength of character.

That is why they say "The army made me what I am today!"... because you weren't 'made' before you joined.

A disciplined childhood full of encouragement, opportunities and praise - and isolation from gangs - will probably be effective innoculation against a child joining up to be cannon fodder.

The only exception I suppose is when people are forced to defend their country, beliefs and like-minded souls (like the 'insurgents' in Iraq).

If I could speak Arabic I would be out there on a plane to Iraq fighting my own countrymen because I believe that it is arrogance, not WMD, that poses the greatest risk to humanity.

Unfortunately, arrogance mainly infests the UK and US... which incidentally have the highest rates of teenage pregnancy in the world and the highest rates of divorce, obesity, drug abuse and alcoholism.
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Old 06-05-2006, 05:48 AM   #38
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Default Re: At least 1000(!) British soldiers have deserted since start of Iraq war!!!

Quote:
People don't enlist because they are ignorant, they do so because they have little self esteem and strength of character.

That is why they say "The army made me what I am today!"... because you weren't 'made' before you joined.
there is another ignorant statement. i won't say this never happens because it does. BUT this is not true 100% of the time so don't attribute it as such.

there are more reasons for joining than there are personalities. each reason is unique to each individual.

some join to escape life.
some join due to a fervent patriotism
some join for college money
some join to prove themselves
some just want to kill
some want to brag they are an officer/nco
Etc Etc Etc.
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Old 06-05-2006, 05:08 PM   #39
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Default Re: At least 1000(!) British soldiers have deserted since start of Iraq war!!!

Quote:
Hyperspeed wrote:
People don't enlist because they are ignorant, they do so because they have little self esteem and strength of character.
That may be one reason but by no means covers all.

Quote:
Unfortunately, arrogance mainly infests the UK and US... which incidentally have the highest rates of teenage pregnancy in the world and the highest rates of divorce, obesity, drug abuse and alcoholism.
You obviously believe arrogance is caused by these things. I don't.
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Old 06-06-2006, 05:05 PM   #40
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Default Re: At least 1000(!) British soldiers have deserted since start of Iraq war!!!

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Wilse wrote:
Quote:
Hyperspeed wrote:
People don't enlist because they are ignorant, they do so because they have little self esteem and strength of character.
That may be one reason but by no means covers all.
It certainly doesn't cover this soldier.
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