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[Cyberus]

@ Wilse

I entirely agree with your first point. When I've said to friends recently, "I feel sorry for the British soldiers out in Iraq right now". I've often got the reply "But they should have thought about that (the fact that they'd be shot at, etc) when they joined up".
The thing is, when I was 17 or 18 I didn't know the things I know about the world that I do now. Thus I think a lot of these poor buggers out there actually didn't know what they were letting themselves in for. I know I wouldn't have if I'd have joined the army when I was 18 (something I toyed with for a number of years).

Wilse wrote:

I think you're well aware that I wasn't referring to that.
Shooting is not what I have a problem with, it's the reasons for the shooting.
You've said yourself that if this country was occuppied by a brutal foreign force, you'd have no problem shooting at them.

Damn right i'd shoot them.

Thing is if you don't realise people will try to kill you, and have no concept of what a war zone is like, then IMNSHO you deserve everything you get for being ignorant.

edit:

I'd like to add that I have no sympathy nor time for ignorant people. Ignorance is an easily cured disease.

[jkirk]

nicholas wrote:

I have never been under any illusion regarding the British Military, unless you count playing soldiers aged 5.

Anyone who joins the Military knows what they are signing up for. If they get killed then they have no-one to blame but themselves. Illegal war or not.

i disagree with you nicholas. you see i did join the military. as i lived in the boondocks(middle of nowhere), i received only one channel of programming and the internet did not exist for the common man. as such i knew nothing about the military other than the fact that we were at peace and the propoganda packets the military hands out. so yes there are a lot in the military that don't know what they are getting into.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

Wilse wrote:

That's a lovely sentiment but when one grows up with a propaganda-tinted view of the virtue of their country, they don't neccessarily think that way.

No one ever told me to keep an eye on what UK military would be used for. In my family and peer group they were generally viewed very honourably.

I think several on this thread underestimate the level of ignorance of these issues in certain sections of society, mine included.

Owkay, I thought it was common knowledge in post ww2 Europe. :-?

[Wilse]

nicholas wrote:

Damn right i'd shoot them.

Well there you are, then.

Thing is if you don't realise people will try to kill you, and have no concept of what a war zone is like, then IMNSHO you deserve everything you get for being ignorant.

If you read what I've written, it's rather obvious that I was never ignorant of the fact that one may be shot at, nor that one may have to shoot at others.
My ignorance lay in the reasons that one could be ordered to shoot.
An entirely different issue altogether.

I'd like to add that I have no sympathy nor time for ignorant people. Ignorance is an easily cured disease.

A somewhat ignorant statement itself, if I may be so bold.
Unless of course there is no fact in existence that you are ignorant of. ;-)

[jkirk]

I'd like to add that I have no sympathy nor time for ignorant people. Ignorance is an easily cured disease.

does an ignorant person know he/she is ignorant? how do you prove that? hell what is truth? how do you know you found it? how do you know an ignorant person has the ability to find the truth? is it ignorant to think ignorance is curable? how do you prove it?

My ignorance lay in the reasons that one could be ordered to shoot.

But surely one joins the military knowing full well that they will do everything they are ordered to do without question?

I know you are not a liar Robert, but I can't believe that you would be so naive to think otherwise.

A somewhat ignorant statement itself, if I may be so bold.

Ignorance is laziness, pure and simple. I have no time for the lazy.

jkirk wrote:

does an ignorant person know he/she is ignorant? how do you prove that? hell what is truth? how do you know you found it? how do you know an ignorant person has the ability to find the truth? is it ignorant to think ignorance is curable? how do you prove it?

Self education.

[Cyberus]

following up on what jkirk said, how does anyone know what 'ignorance' is?
Every way of looking at life is flawed, should any one be more flawed than another?

[Wilse]

nicholas wrote:
But surely one joins the military knowing full well that they will do everything they are ordered to do without question?

I know you are not a liar Robert, but I can't believe that you would be so naive to think otherwise.

I had no problem with having to follow orders. Rather, I had misguided trust that the military would not be misused.

[Hyperspeed]

Anyone thinking of joining the army might consider a quick game of paintball first.

When I went recently I spent half a day running through trees getting picked off by groups of hardcore paintballers.

No matter how hard you try to evade being shot or how feirce you return fire you will inevtiably get 'injured' or taken out.

Now apply this crossfire and skirmish scenario to real war with real munitions, coupled with aerial bombardment, nerve agents and possible nuclear exchange and you should be getting a pretty good idea that the only fairly safe place to be is at No.10 or the Whitehouse.

I don't mean to tarnish all US and UK soldiers with the same brush though, there still are 'a few good men' but Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo and the recent massacre stories by US troops and the Deepcut Army Barracks recruits in the UK being bullied to death just strike a chord with me.

[Glaucus]

Wilse wrote:
Do you think I'm lying?

No, what I meant is I disagree with you...

Anyone who's semi-intelligent should have figured out.....

Yeah, well - *SHOULD* have doesn't mean *will* have.[/quote]But you didn't enlist, so why are you so upset? I wasn't talking about the Wilse's in the world, but about the Fades & Smerfs.

Decide for yourself whether my former ignorance marks me down as less than semi-intelligent but the main conflicts my country got involved in during my life were the Falklands and the first Gulf war.

Well I too was once fascinated by all things military and even stated that I would enlist, but by about the time I was in highschool the Gulf War happened and it was then that I realized that it's all BS.

My Naiive faith in British 'morality' no longer exists but to smugly assert that everyone of enlistment age is also aware of the truth makes you almost as naiive as I used to be.

I think the evidence is out there and anyone who takes a second to look will find it. There are many things that draw people to the military, and for some it's just the thrill of it all, while others join because they simply have no other choice. Luckily I did have a choice and I assume so did you.

I completely agree with this now. Not when I was a teenager, though.

Perhaps you're right. There are many reasons why militaries want to recruit boys before they're properly educated in secondary schools.

- Mike

[jkirk]

nicholas wrote:

Self education.

and if what they learn is wrong it is still ignorance.

Yes, because as I said ignorance==laziness, and one should strive to always be seeking the truth. Education doesn't stop, it is an ongoing process.

[jkirk]

nicholas wrote:
Yes, because as I said ignorance==laziness, and one should strive to always be seeking the truth. Education doesn't stop, it is an ongoing process.

how do you define if a person is lazy or just misinformed?

you see a person can seek the truth and think they found it and it still can be wrong.
take what you have just said ignorance==laziness. that is an ignorant statement because you are not taking into account a person who is actively seeking the truth but does not have access to(or has not found)documents, theories, etc that is in conflict with his/her known truth.

also if a person has found the truth(in a certain situation) and stops looking for the truth(in that same situation) can also be labeled as ignorant according to your statement.