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[nadoom]

isnt that rather alot?

Doesnt that say alot about the west when the extinction of a life becomes so routine?

nadoom wrote:
isnt that rather alot?

Doesnt that say alot about the west when the extinction of a life becomes so routine?

It isn't life at the stage of pregnancy that termination is allowed.

This isn't just my opinion, but the law.

It may be your opinion that it is life, but that doesn't mean you are right.

[Wilse]

@mdma:

Very complex and contentious issue but I tend to agree with you.

[nadoom]

law doesnt equal justice.

my wife is pregnant at the moment, she is 10 weeks, and the little baby has hands and feet and a beating heart. It is alive, regardless of what this law says. I know people will disagree and thats there business.

it isnt just a piece of goo to be discarded as if it is nothing. We are meant to be civilised people and this is an uncivilised act.

This is my opinion, and just as you think you are right i think i am right.

nadoom wrote:
law doesnt equal justice.

my wife is pregnant at the moment, she is 10 weeks, and the little baby has hands and feet and a beating heart. It is alive, regardless of what this law says. I know people will disagree and thats there business.

it isnt just a piece of goo to be discarded as if it is nothing. We are meant to be civilised people and this is an uncivilised act.

This is my opinion, and just as you think you are right i think i am right.

I don't *think* I am "right". I *know* what the law is.

Don't like the laws here? Move to Ireland.

-edit

We live in a democracy. Write to your MP if you want the law changed.

[cecilia]

a fetus is not a baby.

nature has a process called "birth". after that, you have a Separate individual. "giving birth" is not just opening the fridge and getting a sandwich. It's quite a complex process.

[Cymric]

nadoom wrote:
law doesnt equal justice.

This is a no-brainer. Law doesn't equal justice, and justice has absolutely nothing to do with this topic.

my wife is pregnant at the moment, she is 10 weeks, and the little baby has hands and feet and a beating heart. It is alive, regardless of what this law says. I know people will disagree and thats there business.

Foetuses are still horribly dependent on their mother to live. They will die within minutes if separated from their mother, either naturally or artificially. They cannot sustain the process of life on their own. So how much of a 'life' is that? Biologists have a word for such a shared co-existence: parasitism. Sometimes, the mother will have a terrible (and occasionally, life-threatening) pregnancy because her body chemistry cannot handle the stress of the little darling in her womb. Where's the 'justice' in that? Think about that relationship, the next time you take your wife to her gynaecologist to have an ultrasound made.

it isnt just a piece of goo to be discarded as if it is nothing. We are meant to be civilised people and this is an uncivilised act.

In the Netherlands, women follow a strict protocol when they want to have an abortion. There's a contemplation period of 5 days, various discussions with doctors, and so forth. She always has the right to change her mind. Things may be different where you live, but I will eat my shoe if women do not take the issue very seriously. That's why I think that you are generalising considerably, and thus arguing against a strawman, in order to find support for your point of view. That's not a Good Thing.

And while you're at it: what does 'civilised' entail, precisely? No handwaving now, please...

This is my opinion, and just as you think you are right i think i am right.

If you are so sure about being 'right', then why bother bringing up this topic?

[PMC]

cecilia wrote:
"giving birth" is not just opening the fridge and getting a sandwich. It's quite a complex process.

Ah Cecilia, you've never been to Basildon then... Judging by some of the chav population there, childbirth seems to be greeted with all the fanfare and responsibility of someone getting a sandwich from a fridge.

Seriously though, Abortion is a massively contentious issue. As a man, I don't feel I'm qualified to pass judgement over what a woman can / cannot do with her body.

I agree that abortion must not become yet another form of contraception, but there was the well known case of a chemical plant leaking hazardous substances over a town in Italy a couple of decades ago. At the time, abortion was illegal in the Roman Catholic country, but the nature of the chemicals leaked meant that hundreds of unborn children were severely affected. The abortion law was amended to allow pregnant women to abort to avoid the risk of having a severely disabled / stillborn child.

There was also the recent case of the teenage Irish rape victim who was made pregnant by her attacker. She was unable to get her unwanted child aborted due to Irish law and had to endure media condemnation when she travelled to the UK to get an abortion.

Before we tackle this emotive subject, the above points need to be remembered.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

PMC wrote:

Ah Cecilia, you've never been to Basildon then...

*bump* Oh, will you pick that up for me, Deirdre?

[nadoom]

@cymric

What you beleive naturally what you regard is right or wrong, this is a discussion about abortion. I brought up this topic because i think we should discuss it, certain things have happened in my life recently that have highlighted the barbarity of the practice.

You will find that new born babies are also 'horribly' dependant on their mothers to live, they cannot feed them selves and need constant attention. Would you dismember them and suck them up a tube, even with 5 days of careful contemplation? The idea that dependency has anything to do with being alive or not is absurd.

And while you're at it: what does 'civilised' entail, precisely? No handwaving now, please...

A civilised society would be seriously concerned with such high abortion rates.


@mdma

Don't like the laws here? Move to Ireland.

Every time i say something about anything you tell me to leave the country.. its as if you think this country only has room enough for one opinion (yours)

I have actually been thinking about moving to ireland. maybe in the future.

Regarding the law the point i was trying to raise is that "law" doesnt automatically make something right or wrong, the law in south africa 20 years ago classified peoples rights according to the colour of there skin, obviously that kind of law is wrong and shouldnt be followed because it is immoral.


@all
Another reason for this debate is that alot of members are happy to debate the rights and wrongs of muslim nations and how theyre societies are backwards and barbaricetc, but here in the west abortion happen en mass every day and is in islamic terms a disgrace. I suppose this is the west's very own honour killing system.

I do disagree with abortion, i think the manner in which it is trivialised is unjust both to the mother and to the unborn baby. Adoption and contraception are adequate solutions to this problem.

Just because this issue is thorny doesnt mean that it is any different to any topic in this section, this section is by its very nature contraversial.

if you are interested you can find a downloadable version of "the slient scream" where the process of abortion can be seen via ultrasound etc. it is disturbing so be careful:

http://www.silentscream.org/video1.htm

@mdma

Every time i say something about anything you tell me to leave the country.. its as if you think this country only has room enough for one opinion (yours)

What!?!?!? Show me one other instance. :-?

I have actually been thinking about moving to ireland. maybe in the future.

Regarding the law the point i was trying to raise is that "law" doesnt automatically make something right or wrong, the law in south africa 20 years ago classified peoples rights according to the colour of there skin, obviously that kind of law is wrong and shouldnt be followed because it is immoral.

Yes, and if you don't like the law you can try to change it when you live in a democracy.


Here's something that might interest you. I am a father yet I still think women should be given the right to terminate a pregnancy if that is what they require.

Do you think that by banning abortion that the practice would stop?

Well it wouldn't, the laws of supply and demand come into practice. That is why it is currently legal and regulated.

Maybe the current time limit is too much, maybe it isn't enough. I don't know, i'm not qualified to comment.

Neither are you.

[whabang]

my wife is pregnant at the moment, she is 10 weeks

Congratulations! :-D
I hope things work out well for you.

[Wilse]

@nadoom:

I'm confused as to what you hope to gain by discussing this again.
(There have been many, many threads on this topic over the years.)

Are you willing to consider other points of view?
Or is it simply a case of "abortion is ALWAYS wrong. Full stop. No
exceptions."

If it's the former, fair enough.
If it's the latter, what's the point?

[nadoom]

@mdma

im sorry i confused you with some one else. i apologise friends?

I agree that the way to change the law is through democracy, realistically that is unlikely. I have told my MP my views many times ( hes in labour friends of israel)

I agree abortion should not be back street, the current situation isnt acceptable either. the key is education, and maybe a more responsible attitude to sex. the figure in the uk is about 1/4 million abortions per year it really is too much.

Im half english, and i feel sorry in a way to the english race because if they carry on with negative population growth, there wont be any left! My mauritian half though is popping babies out by the dozen.

Babies have survived being born weeks before the abortion limit, that raises big questions regarding the current system. In ireland abortion is illegal i believe, they seem to be doing an ok job policing it.

[nadoom]

@Wilse

Are you willing to consider other points of view?

yep, of course

Or is it simply a case of "abortion is ALWAYS wrong. Full stop. Noexceptions."

No thats not realistic there are valid medical reason etc.

I said in my first post that im talking about elective abortions, which probably accounts for a massive precentage of the total abortions undertaken.

If a woman gets pregnant it is the duty of the MAN and the woman to support it or choose to adopt it, abortion is such a drastic thing to do. Im not telling othe people to follow what i say, they can take it or leave it, but myself thats what i will be doing. and im tell u about it.

I suppose you could boil my arguement down to Abortion is BAD