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Author Topic: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors  (Read 10231 times)

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Offline CHR_ZDTopic starter

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From the book "Freax"

— What's your opinion about the new Amiga successors, the Amiga One and the Pegasos? Do you think they have future?

They're both just PCs with PPCs. Nothing more, nothing less. If a PowerPC is something you find interesting, look at these. If not, they're barely a blip on the radar. What really bothers me is the business case. I don't think anyone working on these things has actually run a company before, certainly not a real company.
First question: who are your customers? If you can't answer that, you are not in business. Both seem to be saying "old Amiga users", but I don't believe that alone is a market large enough to sustain one new computer platform, much less two. Second question: how dedicated are your customers? AmigaOS/MorphOS require custom hardware. So it's $800-$1600 invested before you boot to Workbench. Once there, you don't have applications yet. So it's just a toy.
My claim is and has been that AmigaOS, or a clone, should have been ported to a PC. I just bought a 2.6GHz P4/Celeron machine, including 80GB hard drive, DVD/CD-R/CD-RW drive, 256MB of DDR-DRAM, etc. for $199. Ok, it was a good sale, this is one of my son's Christmas presents. This runs many times faster than any "neo-Amiga" class PPC machine. And many other people have PCs, they don't have PPC machines. What this means: there's a barrier to entry for new Amigas. In the old days, we had advances in hardware and software. But when the hardware is substandard and expensive, why bother? AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current, hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.
Ok, so my opposition will say something like "but, if it runs Windows, they'll just run Windows, not AmigaOS". Dudes... Newsflash! They're already doing that. No one will accidently run AmigaOS rather than Windows. Everyone running AmigaOS, or MorphOS, made that decision. They're early supporters, they see something better. So they absolutely will run things on AmigaOS, if they can run them on AmigaOS. This is exactly how Linux has been growing.
Flip the coin around... if there's a job I need to do, that I can't do under AmigaOS or MorphOS today, that's a reason to not buy. I might also have reasons, such as interest to buy. Add them up, and there's my purchase decision. It's a threshold thing. If the path-independent means to getting AmigaOS on my desktop is $100 rather than $1000, more will sign up. Likely, many more, because the threshold of rejection is a log scale. You might find, for every 100 people willing to buy a New Amiga, there are 1000 or 10,000 willing to buy the software to run this environment on their PC. This is only made more obvious by the fact that none of the hardware is even as good as the cheap PC stuff. If it was better than PC, you'd have a big geek attractor there, even if they didn't know Amiga. Today, it's a big geek repellant, they understand all the details, and don't want to be made fool of.
And all of these issues are largely independent of the OS itself. In OS terms, "better" gets some curious people, if there's a free download. "Dramatically better" gets more, if there's a free download. "Dramatically better, with applications" is where the revolution might begin.
 

Offline motorollin

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Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2006, 12:43:21 PM »
A very convincing and well articulated comment. If only he had said this to Commodore (and they had listened), they might still be here today.

--
moto
Code: [Select]
10  IT\'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN
20  FOR C = 1 TO 2
30     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA
40     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAAA
50  NEXT C
60  NA-NA-NAAAA
70  NA-NA NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA NAAA-NAAAAAAAAAAA
80  GOTO 10
 

Offline Dingo_aus

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Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2006, 12:48:25 PM »
Prima facie you can't really argue with that.

AROS anyone?
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Visit Australian Amateur Robotics
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Offline countzero

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Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2006, 12:53:20 PM »
Quote

AROS anyone?


maybe when it's "Dramatically better, with applications"
I believe in mt. Fuji
 

Offline nasty

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Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2006, 12:57:52 PM »
Quote
A very convincing and well articulated comment. If only he had said this to Commodore (and they had listened), they might still be here today.


I doubt they would of even listened, the commodore way or the highway :crazy:
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Morphos 2.6, mini mac g4 @ 1.25ghz.
 

Offline CHR_ZDTopic starter

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Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2006, 12:59:20 PM »
He tells Commodore CEOs where not even listening to the engineers. Try "The Deathbed Vigil" movie on Commodore Bankruptcy.

Quote

motorollin wrote:
A very convincing and well articulated comment. If only he had said this to Commodore (and they had listened), they might still be here today.

--
moto
 

Offline AmigaEd

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Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2006, 01:04:42 PM »
Even after all of these years, Dave is still the purveyor of truth.

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Offline Cyberus

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Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2006, 01:09:15 PM »
Just don't post this on AW.net, or you'll be 'trolling'


/ducks
I like Amigas
 

Offline CHR_ZDTopic starter

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Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2006, 01:20:50 PM »
I will post.
 

Offline frakswe

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Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2006, 01:32:17 PM »
don't forget about MorphZone, both camps has way too much fun even without x86, need to straighten them out, ok?
...
 

Offline lempkee

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Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2006, 01:38:56 PM »
u guys must be mental or something ..sorry but wtf are you guys on about?

we have 3 alternatives on X86 allready , have they sold so much  copies of new games or software the last years to actually make that arguement valuable?...NO.

you guys (and haynie too) are missing a crucial thing here, morphos and os4 has been dooing everyting on their own more or less and with slaggin like this...we just feel very proud ...ugh.

look at all the fancy stuff mos and os4 has, look how stagnated the 68k arena is, ever crossed your mind why? ...well they moved to the new plattforms to build it up for the final release or whatever ,sure there is problems but its nothing daily to write an os and trying to keep up with the ever so fast growing times of the OS wars (by that i mean keeping up with all the dubious standards microsoft creates or whatever etc)

putting all PPC efforts in a catagory like has been done here today is disturbing and one thing is for sure , you can not run a company if you havent got it close to your heart.

The biggest problem that is on linux theese days is (and has been for many years) is that since its an second alternative OS to windows (for most USERS anyway) ...so what do that mean? ... well it means alot of things but one thing in particular, they expect everything on linux to be FREE and if they buy a game for windows they expect it to be free on linux because it got released 1 day later or 3 years later, this is why companies like Loki died though some survived but hardly because theyre running linux only companies and living of the actual sales.

i agree with things haynie says  and thoose are the commercially viable stuff like if we go mainstream...we wont make much progress with any of our alternatives (morphos/amigaos) as it stand today because of the current MHZ /GB wars but hello... i belived it was time to show the world what a slow ass machine can do if the OS running on it was amazing , doing such on a x86..sure would probably be cool but who will support and make drivers for the millions of types of boards and so on? ..who will pay for that? ..u would be bankrupt before 4 dentists showed up with a big money bag because you wouldnt even have had something to show them in the scheme u set up in advance...

people are too obsessed by owning everything a store has ...what happened to..buy something ...let it be a washermachine or a dvd player and use it till it fails and not run and upgrade just because it has the wrong color or the new model has a new feature that you wouldnt use anyway.


anyway i find this thread insulting to our efforts with both OS4 and MorphOS , afterall they are the future OS's you guys will most likely use (since this is still an Amiga board...aint it?....)  (aros and morphos works closely at some parts it seems and winuae is getting better every day but the future of OS4 and MorphOS last i checked was not X86....)

and btw to all thoose in here who belive in x86 and so on.... commodore (and amiga) died because of their x86 waste of money (and time) production runs just to try and make money...it didnt go very well ofcourse as we know ;)


sorry for going bananas here but u guys pressed a nerve and damned good too ....Stop that.




Whats up with all the hate!
 

Offline CHR_ZDTopic starter

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Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2006, 01:47:27 PM »
yours is just a religion but people doesn't have faith in that.
 

Offline motorollin

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Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2006, 01:51:19 PM »
Well I agree somewhat with both sides of this argument. But I do not believe x86 is the way forward for Amiga as the hardware is too diverse. And in my personal experience, diversity of hardware with a common OS is a Bad Thing.

One reason why Amiga's (and to some extent Apple's) platforms are so stable is because the OS and the hardware are/were developed by the same people. It makes sense: if you know the hardware inside out, then you can tailor your OS to fit it exactly. As soon as the hardware is out of your control, you have to rely on 3rd party hardware manufacturers to conform to standards in order to keep your OS compatible and stable, and that is one reason why x86 operating systems like Windows and even Linux can be unstable.

I can see Dave's point, that in order to attack the market and really be successful Amiga need to appeal to existing Windows and Linux users, i.e. those who are using an x86 platform. This means porting AmigaOS or a clone to an x86 platform. But I fear that would compromise the speed and stability that Amiga Classic/AmigaOne/MorphOS users enjoy.

--
moto
Code: [Select]
10  IT\'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN
20  FOR C = 1 TO 2
30     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA
40     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAAA
50  NEXT C
60  NA-NA-NAAAA
70  NA-NA NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA NAAA-NAAAAAAAAAAA
80  GOTO 10
 

Offline CHR_ZDTopic starter

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Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2006, 01:55:18 PM »
Quote

motorollin wrote:
As soon as the hardware is out of your control, you have to rely on 3rd party hardware manufacturers to conform to standards in order to keep your OS compatible and stable, and that is one reason why x86 operating systems like Windows and even Linux can be unstable.
moto


Dave opinion is Windows is not unstable anymore:

- Some say it's perhaps better that the Amiga died, because sooner or later it would've developed into some unstable and unreliable thing like the PC is. What do you think?

- No, I don't think so. For one, the PC is very, very reliable. The hardware all works together, very nicely. Maybe it's 98% or so, better by far than the HW developed over time for the Amiga.
On the software side, you have issues. Linux tends to be rock solid, and lately even does expansion fairly well. Windows has had problems, it still does expansion wrong, but even at that, it's not generally unreliable anymore. As in most software and hardware interfaces, there are issues of algorithm and implementation. Early Windows was simply brain dead in all things: nothing was well designed, and what was well designed was poorly implemented. In modern Windows (NT-kernel-based), they have fixed more than half of the bad ideas, and even more bugs. But there are still bad ideas. Those are the ones that don't necessarily get fixed, like the way Windows does autoconfig. They're totally wrong about how they do that, and yet, don't understand that they're wrong. So they won't fix it. But that's more of a boot-time than runtime issue. Windows may screw up your network configuration, but it'll happily run for months without crash with that incorrect configuration.


 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2006, 02:20:26 PM »
Quote

motorollin wrote:
I can see Dave's point, that in order to attack the market and really be successful Amiga need to appeal to existing Windows and Linux users, i.e. those who are using an x86 platform. This means porting AmigaOS or a clone to an x86 platform. But I fear that would compromise the speed and stability that Amiga Classic/AmigaOne/MorphOS users enjoy.

--
moto


But you've missed Dave's more important point... Why bother using cheap industry standard parts (ie PCI), as the A1 and Peg do... but not use a nice cheap CPU as well?

I agree that MacOS X has a huge advantage over Windows just because the engineers know exactly what hardware it runs on and can test it completly.

But AmigaOS going X86 doesn't mean you can't do that... if drivers are only written for specific hardware components... then you can force the users of the OS to stick with certain harware... unless they choose to write their own drivers.