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[the_leander]

Blog-mob mentality punishes freedom of speech
Inside the First Amendment

By Paul K. McMasters
First Amendment Center
02.27.05

Take a stroll down Main Street USA and you’ll find people of all ages and persuasions putting on a veritable fashion parade of freedom. We don’t just practice free speech, we wear it.

T-shirts, caps, shoes, jackets, designer labels and the occasional tattoo boldly announce in word, design and color our choice, our message, our cause, our team – our Statement.

And when we take to the road, we do so in rolling billboards, vehicles festooned with bumper stickers, vanity plates and ribbons of every hue embracing every cause. We drive what we say.

Then there’s the Internet, where we really speak our minds. We have e-mail, instant messaging, chat rooms, personal Web pages and, now, our own newspaper/radio-TV station, the Web log or “blog.”

Full-throated expression is our style. We are America. Hear us roar!

Funny thing. For all of that celebration of free and fulsome speech for ourselves, many of us waste a lot of that precious commodity denying it to others. “America,” we say, “shut up!”

Full story, as ever here.

Before anyone complains "Oh this is just another anti American story, stop posting them and do something else" I would point out that the UK is also seeing many of the things described in this article, I would also suspect Canada of being similar also. I would argue that this article has a point that crosses all continents.

[PMC]

An Iranian blogger was recently given 15 years in jail.

Personally, I think blogging is a wonderful thing. It's allowing each of us to express ourselves in a new medium and can't be censored or watered down by third parties (yet). Freedom of speech and expression are fundamentals that we've never truly been able to experience until now. Long may it continue.

[cecilia]

excellent.
this is one of the reasons i HATE political correctness.

every wackjob identifies what they think is "wrong" or "bad" thoughts and all hell breaks out while they flamethrow the entire area to cleanse people's brains from them.

say goodbye to democracy.

Giving in to the speech mob means that discourse is diverted from the real issues to a sideshow on who is punished for uttering the ?wrong? ideas or words. Dissent is dead if it can be hounded out of the marketplace so effortlessly. Democracy is no match for demagoguery if good people won?t stand up to mob rule.

[Cymric]

@cecilia

Either I'm getting old and senile, or I just don't understand your reaction. Would you mind clarifying?

[cecilia]

Cymric wrote:
Would you mind clarifying?

i agree with the editorial. people should be able to have whatever ideas they like - without the fear that there lives will be ground up like meat.

even if those ideas are stupid.

i really do think the constitution allows people to have stupid, rude and silly ideas. and i think that's because the freedom to HAVE dumb ideas is more important that what those ideas are.

a long time ago, at the begining of my career, i went to get a job that had been suggested by my brother's friend. it was something very simple like mailroom stuff. too long ago to really recall.
anyway, the guy hiring was this old coot who after one look at me said something like "I don't hire girls".

ok, so this guy is an {Ashcroft}hole (I'm trying out my new dirty word here).

my brother's friend was really shocked, but even at that age, i was used to that kind of silly thinking. whatever, i figured, the guy is a loser and just lost the best employee he'll ever possibly get.
bye bye!

I just went on to find other employment.

now, if this was today and all those PC morons were to hear about this they would want to sue this guy to the stone age. and why? I say let nature take it's course. How successful do you think this guy can be when he can't appreciate a person's good qualities??? not very.

why waste everyone's time suing and basically giving money to scum lawyers? does justice get served? NO

I believe people should be free to express all their dumb ideas so we can see them for the morons they are and naturally avoid them.

these days, people don't actually SAY alot of sexist type comments, but the point is, they still THINK them. trust me. I've gotten very good at being able to tell how people think no matter what they actually say. the PC people have done no one any favors.
you can not control how a person feels and thinks - you just make that stuff go underground.

PC goes against free thought. it's wrong and should not be encouraged.

[Glaucus]

So what do you think about sexual advances? As it is now, a guy can't say anything interesting to a girl as it can be considered sexual harassment - a fireable offense.

- Mike

[Speelgoedmannetje]

I disagree with you here, Cecilia.
Because Napoleon once said: "A newspaper can be more harmfull than a thousand guns"
A war does initially begin with gunfighting.
I think freedom of speech ends with spreading hatred.

[cecilia]

Glaucus wrote:
So what do you think about sexual advances? As it is now, a guy can't say anything interesting to a girl as it can be considered sexual harassment - a fireable offense.

I think the reason i have never had any problems at work is entirely because of how I handle myself in a work environment.

1) I never talk about anything "personal". that is, i never use words like "boyfriend", "husband", "date", etc.
I don't believe men at work should be thinking too much about my private life.

2) i'm friendly, of course, but i do think i know how to be friendly without actually crossing the flirting line.

3) I talk about work and other such related topics, but if any mention of my family does happen it's usually my mother. and, knowing how guys think, there's no faster erection killer than talking about mom. This way i can explain some of my background (meaning my values) while not giving off the wrong vibes.

4) this may sound "sexist" to some people, but i am convinced that it is in fact the female person that can control these situation completely. Of course, i have the confidence needed to do so.

I think there are alot of wishy-washy females out there that just don't know how to handle themselves - or guys. so they fall back on this rediculous PC crap and lawyers, etc.

and don't assume that guys haven't made subtle (or in some cases, not so subtle) comments. it's just that I don't fly off the handle, have a heart attack or call the police.

I really don't think people TALKING is a federal offense. now, if someone touched me. well, then, i'd have to smack him in the nose. but THAT is crossing the line.

in other words, if a girl/women/female person can't handle being in an office or other work place, well, grow up or get out.

[cecilia]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
I disagree with you here, Cecilia.
Because Napoleon once said: "A newspaper can be more harmfull than a thousand guns"
A war does initially begin with gunfighting.
I think freedom of speech ends with spreading hatred.

well, he also (supposedly) said "Women are nothing but machines for producing children."


actually i like this one better:
"It is the province of honest men to enlighten the government."

anyway, back to the point of Freedom of Speech. well, just because some people talk stupidly - like for example those delightful God Hates Fags family - doesn't mean we all have to believe what they say.
the real power of Freedom of Speech is that right after one of those nutcases says god sent the tsunomi to smote the "evil" people in asia is that I can turn around and tell them they are full of crap.

see, speel, if one person doesn't have Freedom of Speech, no one does. it has to be universal. otherwise, it's a sham.

you shouldn't be afraid of stupid people and the stupid things they say. because the fresh air of truth will blow away their stench.

be concerned about those who would silence anyone because they don't want to hear a potential bad word.

[the_leander]

I think Churchill said it best:

"I may dispise what you are saying, but I will defend to the death your right to say it!"

Political Correctness only covers over the problems that our society faces, do you think that laws governing "hate speech" stops people hating? Does it bollux, they still hate, they just go underground, or boil away under the surface until it explodes doing the most damage.

Yes its unpleasant, even offensive to some, but that is in no way justification to ban it.

And finally, my favourate all time quote from Billy Connelly:

"Political Correctness is the language of cowards!"

The only way to end these problems is through education, it has always been so, simply stopping people saying things doesn't fix things, it just makes people false in their dealings with others.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

Cecilia, you had to be in Yugoslavia two decades ago to understand my opinion about this.
Or, in a hitler cheering mob.
I think you guys really think way too lightly about such.

see, speel, if one person doesn't have Freedom of Speech, no one does. it has to be universal. otherwise, it's a sham.

I know this, but there's freedom, and there's peace. And sometimes mob force you to have to choose between just one of them.

And I choose peace first of all, because of the fewest victims it'll make, and also, without peace there won't be freedom possible.

you shouldn't be afraid of stupid people and the stupid things they say. because the fresh air of truth will blow away their stench.

If that would be the case, I'd agree with you wholeheartily, but history proves you otherwise. :-(

Heck, I wouldn't care at all about "stupid" opinions, if ppl wouldn't act to it so rigorously to their beliefs.
What I want to say is that your ideas about this are good, but, just as communism, in some cases a bad thing in reality (or, rather, has very lethal flaws in it). But, I agree also with you that just making them shut up isn't a good thing either, but for that, you have to look at the difference between the former DDR and the former BRD in the way of dealing with Nazism after the war (where I obviously prefer the way the BRD dealt with it, considering the amount of incidents caused by nazism in the former DDR).

[Glaucus]

the_leander wrote:
I think Churchill said it best:

"I may dispise what you are saying, but I will defend to the death your right to say it!"

Chruchill may have spoken those words, but it's normally attributed to Voltaire: I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

- Mike

[the_leander]

And stopping them from saying what they're saying does what exactly? They'll just say it someplace you can't see, the net effect is that nothing changes. Letting these people say what they say means that you can identify them, by "silencing" them, you are giving them even more power - the power of anonimity, until its too late.

One of my uni lectures last friday was on "inclusivity" in the classroom.

I pointed out that forcing your "liberal" opinions on your students is just as bad as neo-nazi types forcing their filth on people.

As an hypothetical example I offered: I have extreme left wing political beliefs, imagine i had a group of neo-nazi students in my class, although I may disagree with their beliefs, I would never force my opinions upon them and treat them differntly than other students in my class. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs in my opinion, and although I may not agree with them, I believe they have they a right to hold and voice those beliefs.

Whereas this other student teacher who is extremely PC thinks that her beliefs are the only beliefs that are "right", and that I am a disgrace to the teaching profession because I treat EVERYONE the same and don't feel a need to discriminate against people with non-PC beliefs.

The world is going mad! :-o

the_leander wrote:
I think Churchill said it best:

"I may dispise what you are saying, but I will defend to the death your right to say it!"

Political Correctness only covers over the problems that our society faces, do you think that laws governing "hate speech" stops people hating? Does it bollux, they still hate, they just go underground, or boil away under the surface until it explodes doing the most damage.

Yes its unpleasant, even offensive to some, but that is in no way justification to ban it.

And finally, my favourate all time quote from Billy Connelly:

"Political Correctness is the language of cowards!"

The only way to end these problems is through education, it has always been so, simply stopping people saying things doesn't fix things, it just makes people false in their dealings with others.

[the_leander]

Glaucus wrote:

Chruchill may have spoken those words, but it's normally attributed to Voltaire: I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

- Mike

Heh maybe, maybe not, but it does sound that much more authoritive which Churchill's voice ;-)