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[GadgetMaster]

Paul_Gadd wrote:

No it is the STUPID USERS who do not read the Disclaimer in software which clearly says it installs additional software which may collect personal info, monitor surfing, serve ads etc,

Dont install/support software with spyware.

I have to disagree with you there. There are security vulnerabilities in Microsoft software that allow dubious webmasters
to install software on your computer without your knowledge just by visiting their websites.

Turning off ActiveX helps but you really need to to get the patches from MS aswell as
install protection software to monitor such activities.

[chris]

Blomberg wrote:
I got this which I suspect is the same as what you are talking about ('Tjenesten Messenger' means Messenger Service). I posted about it here and got some kind advice (along with alot of mocking :-D).

I disabled the following services:

Messenger service
TCP/IP NetBIOS Helper Service

And guess what, they haven't been back since.
And I haven't noticed anything breaking as a result of this, so unless you are certain you need these services, I think it's safe to disable them.

I've disabled Messenger already, so I'll get rid of NetBIOS TCP/IP helper as well.... gone. Hopefully that will stop them, thanks.

Chris

[BouncingAyatollah]

@Paul_Gadd

No it is the STUPID USERS who do not read the Disclaimer in software which clearly says it installs additional software which may collect personal info, monitor surfing, serve ads etc,

This isn't always the case. Run Ad-Aware or similar routinely and you will find spy software or components which have apparently magically appeared, such as the component that is installed with IE. Similarly (although technically not the same issue) I object to applications connecting across the net without me EXPLICITLY telling them to (especially when the other end of the connection has root access via some EULA or as a built-in feature of XP). After you set up a good firewall, all and sundry wants to connect to send "something", "somewhere". I have known friends find utility software which was seemingly routinely sending packets to an unkown IP.

The issues with XP are more worrying however (although again technically a similar not identical issue). They are enabling official methods whereby a software firewall can be bypassed! WTF!? EULAS stating "give us *root* access or you can't run this" are despicable. Bargaining desire for new features versus your security! It seems to me M$ may be (allegedly :-) ) either sifting data insidiously or attempting to update the OS "behind your back" so they don't suffer the humiliation of endless "public" security disclosures. i.e. if we can update stuff sneakily it won't seem sh*t.

Isn't this approach preferable: buy RedHat, sign up for RedHat Network. THEY send you security bulletins and say "hey, come get the updates". Open. Honest. More broadly, the M$ method: as secure as a sponge until you switch more and more things off versus the linux approach: as tight as a gnat's chuff and you allow extra features as and when. If the tightness of said gnat's chuff is compromised, THEY tell YOU and the problem is fixed ASAP.

[Madgun68]

Dont install/support software with spyware.

That's correct. Whatever you do, don't install Windows! :-P

[Paul_Gadd]

I am on about programs which tells the user it contains spyware but the users just ignores it and installs anyway, weeks later they remove the software but spyware is lett behind then more weeks go by then the #### hits the fan and the user blaims Windows.

[BouncingAyatollah]

@Paul_Gadd

I am on about programs which tells the user it contains spyware but the users just ignores it and installs anyway, weeks later they remove the software but spyware is lett behind then more weeks go by then the #### hits the fan and the user blaims Windows.

Well, that's fair enough if it IS clearly stated rather than obscurely worded or hidden.

I think the problem will become more pernicious in time however as such things are hidden sneakily inside half-a-dozen page EULAs or "by default" as a "feature". One to watch I think. In fact THIS is the very reason I decided maybe about a year ago to learn to be technically proficient with linux (still ongoing <cough> ). I think the time will come where Windows (and in this case I do mean the OS Windows, not just spyware enabled apps) will not be inherently secure as in you control your own bleedin' machine unless you have a hardware firewall! Imagine this too... using the "bargain features versus security" tactic, suppose M$ eventually "oh so surprisingly" phase out the ability to connect to a server yourself for updates in favour of the "superior" let-us-do-it-for-you-and-give-us-root-access(tee-hee) method. In other words, use our automatic methods or nothing, what then?

For me, linux or AmigaOS or <something else> I think (maybe the new OS from Sony/Toshiba/IBM(?) will be good)...

[mikeymike]

If you're going to use the most popular operating system available, then you have to expect the kind of negative attention it gets from hackers, virus writers and dodgy software writers.

If AmigaOS was as popular as Windows, do you think everything would be perfect, no problems like that at all?

Yes, there are aspects about MS's software design that leave a lot to be desired, and that doesn't help things.

But generally, you're responsible for the software you install on your system, if you're not paying attention you'll get screwed. Simple as that.

[Fud]

I had the same experience and an added feature when installing Getright on my bro-inlaws Thinkpad it literally froze the computer, the keyboard was inoperable after the install and had to do a hard shut down.
When installing s/w only install the program not the addons such as Gator as they task your sanity.
If your brave use Regedit [ms] and RegCleaner to rid the said annoying programs. I've used SystemMechanic w/little help but that depends on the user. Also don't go crazy w/the Registry.

Isn't the Amiga so much easier to deal with.

[Bodie]

I hate it when Outlook Express crashes all because I want to view my mail.

I hate it when for some bizarre reason Internet Explorer crashes when I surf Microsoft's website (yes it does really happen)!

AND I HATE THAT ******* WINDOWS REGISRY PROGRAM!!!!!! GRRRRRRRRRR
Bodie > Windows Registry program.

[SlimJim]

I use Windows for two things: the occational game, and to
run my Canon scanner. After having scanned the image I
quickly move it over to Linux (Gimp) and/or the Amiga
(DPaintV/PPaint :-D) to actually do work on it. I try to limit
my time in Windows as much as possible - when using it I
have that gnawing and unnerving feeling that "something
is going to go very wrong, any time now"...

Everything I want to do with my computer can be
accomplished with my Amiga/Linux combo. The ultimate
solution (for me) would be to set up a skeleton Windows
install (is that even possible?), skip all the superfluous
OS-stuff and use it only to get access to the latest
drivers/hardware (I could really do without the games too,
if it came to that...).
.
SlimJim

[Mike_Amiga]

Go get the Macscan (public beta) for free it searches your HD for spyware and allows you to delete it. Appartently I have no spyware on either of my partitions could be something to do with the fact I don't use Instant Messagers. (No use for them myself.)

http://macscan.securemac.com/

However the sinic in me thinks all these free spyware betas may be a cheeky way to give people a false sense of security.

Although on the forum I originally got this from many were amazed to find they had 3 or 4 spyware progs on there HD.

[Elektro]

Fresh install of internet explorer 6 (maybe also 5) will ad an Alexa registry key which adaware considers spyware. I dont know what it does though.

[Paul_Gadd]

"Alexa integrates seamlessly into your Internet Explorer browser and updates with site-specific information as you surf."

Spyware,

To see if it is installed click TOOLS in IE and see of Alexa is in the menu.

[Waccoon]

Blomberg: I got this which I suspect is the same as what you are talking about ('Tjenesten Messenger' means Messenger Service).

This is not totally the fault of Windows. I recall getting a "Messenger Service" pop-up just like yours on my system at work. The machine was freshly re-installed with only Windows 2000 and our DSL software. Nothing else. I tracked down the proram causing the pop-ups, and it turned out to be the PPPoE client, which is what the computer needs to talk to the DSL modem!!!

When I called our DSL provider about the program and the pop-ups, they insisted that since the pop-ups had "Messenger Service" in the title bar, it was probably some kind of Instant Messenger clone running in the backgroud, and it had NOTHING to do with their DSL client. We pay $60 a month for DSL, and they force ads on us, and expect us to believe that it's someone else's spamware causing the problem. I am 100% certain beyond a shade of a doubt that their software was causing the pop-ups.

I bought a router to share our DSL connection with the other computers, which has its own PPPoE client in hardware. I de-installed our DSL software, set up the router, and... VIOLA! All pop-ups disappeared! I am NOT happy with our DSL provider, and I intend to track down some kind of proof to get them to stop this. It's hard, though. Windows does a crappy job telling you what programs are doing what on your system.

Who's at fault here? The DSL guys, Windows, or us (for putting up with this crap?)...

Frankly, it's everyone's fault. Windows should provide a more robust program tracker that lets users know what messages and windows belong to what program, and exactly how each program was launched at how it was installed. Also, it should not be possible to launch a program from the registry. Only the "Startup" folder or a batch file should allow direct execution of programs. Windows has multiple startup folders to launch programs on startup, making it very hard to disable spamware. It should also be possible to "quarantine" programs, so they can't read or write anywhere except their installation directory, regardless of your account security settings. That could really help track down problem programs. Of course, Microsoft has a vested interest NOT to do these things, since the spammer market is a huge market, indeed.

The software developers are at fault for inventing all this crap to begin with. I mean, how can any company just take over your computer, and bury a cryptic liability release in their UELA? Freeware programs now have UELAs that span 20 pages or more of legal gibberish! Hell, even commercial programs are doing it. Even if you PAY for your software, they still spam you with ads. I was paying $30 for a subscription to NASCAR.com to see RealPlayer movies, and they STILL put 30 second ads in front of every movie! Needless to say, I canceled my subscripiton in a hurry.

Which leads to the last point: users don't complain. For pop-ups, only the OS can tell you what programs are causing trouble, and that's the fault of Windows. But, people are incrasingly forgiving towards programs that are obviously selling out. When you pay for a program, and it still has a 10 second nag screen, you have a moral obligation to return the software. A lot of people don't bother, especially when you can get a crack or something, ensuring that only the "legal" users have to deal with all this bull****.

Helgis75: No way i am installing Windows in my system either!

I doubt AmigaOS is immune to this crap.

My only real beef with Windows is all the ActiveX controls. If you turn them off, you can't view a lot of websites. If you put them on "Prompt", you'll get a nag box every time an ActiveX control is launched (you might get multiple nags per website, and you can't tell WHAT ActiveX controls will be launched). ActiveX is a real pain in the ActiveAss!

Paul_Gadd: Blaming Windows when clearly the user is at fault, totally pathetic

People who run .exe files they get in their e-mail deserve to get bombed by viruses. The trouble is, not everyone knows how many executable programs and scripting systems there are out there. Executables also have file extensions like ".ocx" and ".msc", for example. I know an OCX file is an ActiveX program, but I don't know what an MSC file is (other than an executable). Also, remember that bug in Outlook Express that autoatically ran Visual Basic scripts that could run program content? It's crazy. You don't even have to run attachments. Just LOOKING at your e-mail is enough to infect a bugged up system!

Paul_Gadd: Dont install/support software with spyware.

Provided the software can actually BE installed. lots of apps do "silent" installs these days. Anybody remember Comet Cursor? That would install itself on your computer via an ActiveX control, and would not put a UELA on the screen until it was already installed and ACTIVE. Basicly, it would install itself without permission, and then congratulate you for "choosing" to install the software.

This was before Microsoft introduced a more reliable version of Install on Demand. Things like Comet Cursor are more rare these days, but they still happen, and spyware developers are constantly looking for new ways to get around the security filters and run without any notification.

Not to mention all the programs that are launched by other programs. Let's suppose you install GreatPaintProgram.exe from a commercial company, which also installs SuperWare.exe. In the UELA, it only says, "allow GreatPaintProgram and our affiliates..." Not terribly specific, is it?

Every time you launch GreatPaintProgram.exe, it launches SuperWare.exe in the background, and then configures itself to run at startup and mask itself in the registry so you don't konw it's installed. You delete GreatPaintProgram because it sucks, and SuperWare is still installed. All the while, SuperWare runs on your system, hidden, launching, installing, and spying. It's a pretty complex problem with too many leads to track down. Also, this assumes that all this crap is LEGAL. Even reputable developers get caught with their pants down once in a while.

It sucks, but everyone is at fault. So long as it's profitable, it's not going to stop, and carefully reading all your UELAs may not be enough.

I really wish Windows had a "quarantine" feature. I hope a future AmigaOS does, but I doubt it will. Almost nobody offers that kind of feature in their OS (at least that I know of).

[Darth_X]

I also like to use Norton Systemsworks clean sweep "smart sweep" when installing software.. it helps when you want to uninstall software that you install on windows but don't like. Its not perfect, but its does the job most of the time.

I hope Norton adds spyware removal tools...


(Maybe the people who write virus-scanning software and hard drive system tools should get together and put together a commercial product suite like Norton Systemworks. I'd buy it. Good idea?)