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[the_leander]

I was on slashdot reading about the case of a canadian counterfieter, and in the comments (as usual) it went offtopic and (as is often the case) Iraq was brought up, or rather an interesting and often overlooked point about all of this: Currency.

We all now know that France and Germany traded with Iraq in the moral and political nightmare called the oil for food program and that they went further in simply buying (with money) the oil rather then go through the UN system. What isn't mentioned often, is that they were dealing in Euros. Now before when it was Francs and Marks, it didn't matter, niether currency was ever going to put a dent in the US economy, but the Euro is a completely different matter, as europe as a whole now is in the possision to serverly hurt the US economy where it would feel it the most: International trade.

You're thinking at this point "Yeah so what? You can buy oil with anything you want so long as its legal tender?" Wrong, all oil producing countries accept ONLY US $. It replaced pounds sterling as THE international trading currency at about the time the US pulled the plug on supplying food etc after WW2, and had to beg for a loan (which we're still paying for, btw). They gave us cash and in return got the dollar accepted as the standard... We were soooo screwed on that one.

Now understand that the US creates a good deal of its wealth in promoting the Dollar, indeed, atm its the only thing that is keeping the US econemy as buoyant as it is currently.

And then France and Germany try to upset that by getting the second largest oil producing country in the world to supply for Euro..

They were genuinely telling the truth when they said it wasn't about oil... Who'd have thought it eh? A polititian telling the truth, if only to cover up a greater lie...

It wasn't about oil, it was a war against the euro by proxy.


--edit--

Don't believe me? Research fiat banking and the history of it and you'll begin to understand why this is

--/edit--

[Speelgoedmannetje]

hm, very interesting thought indeed
Beseen this, it would be wise of the British government to embrace the Euro...

[the_leander]

@Speel

Or at the very least pull back from America (Sorry guys, but bush and gang are a bunch of muppets), the Euro still has many of us very very gittery over here, thanks to being lied to about the whole EU project's course for two generations by successive governments... Kinda sticks in our throat a bit

My other concern is that a strong Europe might provoke a group like the Neo Cons to push for war against us (Current US foreign policy states that they will do anything to maintain the US's superiority in the globe). I do NOT want this country to become a pin cushon to the US's navy, no matter how much I think the political system is utterly berift of any sound moral judgement.

And whilst many Americans on here might say, nah won't happen, how many people cared one IOTA about iraq before Bush wound up the country like a tight coiled spring? The media over there has proven to be more then happy to dedicate themselves to showing the evils of your enemies, and to exagerate their threat to you to such a degree that the vast majority of Americans are happy to go to war with them... Why not with the next enemy?

[cecilia]

this is what the Project for the New American Century is basically all about.

really horrifying, if you ask me. :-(

[the_leander]

I just had this terrifying daydream... sorta went like this

Say this in yer head with GW's Texas drawl and it actually fits quite well with speaches he has actually made (I should have been a script writer) and, imagine the setting; GWB is on his podium in the whitehouse talking to the press:

"The British, our former allies have made up their minds, and have turned their back on us, they have gone to their new masters, the Europeans, led by our old enemy, Germany. We have evidence that they plan to hurt us economically, threatening our way of life, that their Union, is, just a smokescreen for their hatred of our freedoms, and liberties...." and on and on

Ending with

"It is my firm belief, that we should free the people of Europe from the oppressive regime that is the EU. We as Americans have a responsibility to the world, to protect it from evil..."

[Karlos]

@the_leander

Very creepy...

[that_punk_guy]

I'm scared. :-(

[FluffyMcDeath]

I've tried to raise this here before, but "Yeah, so what?" is usually as far as you get. Seems "huh?" or "what are you talking about?" is more the usual actually.

As to say that it is not about oil seems false to me. The US dollar IS oil, just as it used to be gold before the 70's. Money is only a promise to be backed up with a real thing. Back in the good old days, that real thing was gold, but thanks to the balance of trade, the US ran out of gold and switched to oil with their middle eastern allies. The fact that everyone NEEDS oil, means that everyone NEEDS USD to buy oil. But for that, the dollar would collapse as it is excrutiatingly overextended and propped up by debt.

Venezuala was also considering switching to Euros, hence the attempted coup there.

The big threat to the US right now is Russia, as they are big oil exporters (and are soon going to have government control of Yukos). They are already talking about trading oil in Euros (makes sense since they're a lot closer to Europe than the US) and China may be a big customer so maybe Yuen too (but then what would China do with all their dollars? They have about as many dollars as the US does!)

This is a last gasp from the US to stay on top. Problem is they have mismanaged things so badly it's probably gonna collapse no matter what they do. The US is pretty much committed now to securing what remaining oil supplies there are in the world and I don't think they have the resources or political influence left in the world to do it. Iraq may have broken them and shown their weakness other countries will be smelling the blood in the water.

I hope Bush gets 4 more years. It wouldn't be fair to have someone else's name in the history books presiding over the collapse of the US.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

@Fluffy
that's a hell of a lot info/speculation
can you back it up with something, so me and others can have a closer look to all this?

[the_leander]

@Fluffy,

The problem is that long before their economy collapses, I can see a group such as the neo cons taking one last swipe at their percieved enemies, I can see all sorts of nasty repercussions of America getting a call from the Bailifs...

[KennyR]

that's a hell of a lot info/speculation
can you back it up with something, so me and others can have a closer look to all this?

He posted several links in a thread about this in the Politics forum. It might still be there.

[the_leander]

@Speel

look for the following on Google:

Fiat Banking. Everything you need to know about the back story is held with the many links that will result. Its a massive subject that I've spent the last three days looking into, and I've barely begun to scratch the surface. Understanding the principles is easy, understanding how it applies to the various actions the US has enacted is a much more difficult task.

What Fluffy is talking about is exactly what I was getting at. People start buying their oil in Euros, the US economy is dead, its that simple. And you can be sure a bunch of sicko's like the neo cons wouldn't just leave it at that.

[cecilia]

I hope Bush gets 4 more years. It wouldn't be fair to have someone else's name in the history books presiding over the collapse of the US.

not to worry, the distruction of america will be linked to bush. the winners write the history books, and in this situation (no matter how long it takes), the US goverment will not win.

[FluffyMcDeath]

cecilia wrote:

not to worry, the distruction of america will be linked to bush. the winners write the history books, and in this situation (no matter how long it takes), the US goverment will not win.

You know, as cynical as I am, it still saddens me that a lot of good people will get dragged down when these rogues get done having their jollies. OTOH, with global warming coming along nicely, a lot of our north will be thawing and opening up productive land, so there'll be plenty of room up here for good, honest, hardworking types who want a chance to make a life.

[Cyberus]

What sickens me, is that despite all that has happened in the last hundred years, humanity (as it has done for thousands of years) has learnt nothing.
There are still those who want war (Europe knows all too well about the horror of that). Empires and the plentiful negative aspects of what they represent, whether it be the Soviets, the British or earlier imperial powers, do not assuage the imperialist ambitions of the US (and lets face it, at the moment they are pursuing what I like to call 'economic imperialism'). Poverty and disease are far from being addressed - look at sub-Saharan Africa, and while we're on the subject of that, where are the Western governments' soldiers when ethnic cleansing is going on? Oh, they have no oil, so they don't matter - these people' deaths mean nothing.

I just don't understand, we should be building bridges - we should be reaching out to other nations (which is why I am firm believer in the spirit of the EU, but perhaps not its machinations), not causing resentment. As I've no doubt said before, I feel genuinely ashamed to be British sometimes - I feel guilty by association of what has happened in Iraq. I love my country as well, I'm patriotic, I'm no leftist apologist, but I honestly thought in this day and age we should be looking forward to an era of increased cooperation, understanding and internationalism. But it seems as if we are about to re-enter the dark ages......

It's sad, really sad. Whatever happened to diplomacy?
Even though one might think of the British diplomatic service as being full of well connected people, people who one might expect to be right-wing, even they are in total disbelief at the foreign policy pursued by our government.

What must they think of the foreign policy of the US then? Surely we all know by now, that to get what you want in life - and lets face it, that's what diplomacy IS, the best way is to earn people's trust and to earn their respect. Have the US or UK done either of those things recently?