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[psxphill]

Originally Posted by TheBilgeRat

So, Google invented Linux and is the be all/end all? Runey called you on not making sense - this post does not help your case.

I never said they invented Linux. Please try reading slower and more carefully, you might find it helps.

It seems Mitt Romney is better at debating than Linux users.

[TheBilgeRat]

Originally Posted by psxphill

A lot of people don't use Linux because of the lack of hardware and software support. I've only used laptops for the last 12 years and Linux driver support has always been poor when I've tried it.

citation needed. I have found linux support stellar for most all hardware these days except for some wifi chips. It must have been a while since your last attempt.

Lack of software support? Really? Shenanigans.

I was surprised when a real hardcore Linux geek I know bought a sony vaio & he's now happily running Windows on it as it actually has drivers for all the built in hardware.

No hardcore linux geek would ever buy a Sony product. I had a Sony laptop once. It barely ran on Windows, and was impossible to divest of shovelware as the proprietary drivers were embedded in a reinstall routine that would just reinstall the shovelware. It was an absolute piece of crap. If he was a real linux guy, there are many many companies which manufacture and sell laptops with excellent linux support. Lets see, there's Asus, and Dell, and Lenovo...

They don't want to learn anything new, if you can't get them to upgrade from XP to 7 because it's different, then switching to Linux is never going to happen.

Who cares? I don't care if there are people out there who run windows. You are comparing Ubuntu to Microsoft and calling linux users ignorant televangelist followers and alluding that there is some linux "conspiracy" to divest you of money, all of which are patently untrue. I use windows, and like it for what it is.

You'll never be able to convince your broadband supplier that the reason the internet is not working right has nothing to do with you running Linux.

Sure I can.

Commercial software that people rely on hasn't been ported.

citation needed.

Hardly anybody knows how to use it. Not helped by the differences between distros.

what you mean to say is that YOU do not know how to use it. fair enough.

Steam are the first business to have any real faith that Linux on the desktop can succeed. Maybe it will pay off for you eventually, maybe it won't.

Wow. There are a few more than just Steam.

I am not sure why you staunchly refuse to adjust your view of linux to its current state. I get you think it sucks, but don't spread FUD because you couldn't get it to work.

[psxphill]

Originally Posted by TheBilgeRat

I have found linux support stellar for most all hardware these days except for some wifi chips. It must have been a while since your last attempt.

Is wifi not important? I've been using wifi almost exclusively for networking for 12 years.

Tell me a distro that you think every single piece of hardware in my laptop will have drivers for and I'll install it on a spare drive & let you know how I get on.

Originally Posted by TheBilgeRat

No hardcore linux geek would ever buy a Sony product. I had a Sony laptop once. It barely ran on Windows, and was impossible to divest of shovelware as the proprietary drivers were embedded in a reinstall routine that would just reinstall the shovelware. It was an absolute piece of crap. If he was a real linux guy, there are many many companies which manufacture and sell laptops with excellent linux support. Lets see, there's Asus, and Dell, and Lenovo...

Well he is a real Linux geek and it's a really nice bit of hardware with no shovelware at all. The speed was amazing. I am not impressed with asus or Lenovo hardware. The new xps 13z from Dell looks nice, but that's no good for you as it comes bundled with Windows 8. I tend to buy Dell stuff as their support has consistently been good for me, I'd always get on site support with accidental damage though.

Originally Posted by TheBilgeRat

I am not sure why you staunchly refuse to adjust your view of linux to its current state. I get you think it sucks, but don't spread FUD because you couldn't get it to work.

I could ask you the same, but you'd only say that you are right.

[runequester]

Originally Posted by psxphill

You can't even read English, so we may as well end the conversation here.

I didn't say they were TV evangelists, I said that I put them alongside.

They are saying the things that you eat up, but they are just trying to find a way to screw money out of you. Google have nailed it.

Again with the they. You seem to be missing something pretty important:

There is no monolithic entity pushing linux. There's tons of individual companies and individual people who use it for their specific purposes.

The reason they can do this is exactly because it is open source. What else would linksys, google, canonical, the French government, IBM, the KDE developers and a basement coder from Uzbekistan have in common ?


You keep coming back to money, and sure, companies want money in return for something, whether advertisement (google), hardware (IBM, intel) or support (red hat, canonical). You can make money from open source software, and people have for years and years.
That does not invalidate the basic concept of software freedom. In fact, software freedom has specifically enabled this to occur in a world that is otherwise locked down between two corporate giants. It has lowered the barrier of entry to all manner of gadgets that would otherwise have been far more expensive to develop.

And it manages that while letting every day guys do whatever they want on their hardware. Pretty neat huh?

[psxphill]

Originally Posted by runequester

There is no monolithic entity pushing linux.

The more Ubuntu takes off the worse canonical will become. http://www.maximumpc.com/article/new...dont_freak_out

I like this comment: "I guess if the current users didn't leave after Unity, nothing is really going to shock them."


Google haven't particularly played fair with android either. Holding back the source until their own device is launched.

So no, there is not one company that is doing the dirty. It's a load of them.
At least Microsoft writes the software they sell, Ubuntu & Google have taken the hard work of others to make money from.

[ElPolloDiabl]

I've never had a problem with wifi drivers. I've had asus wifi on PCI card and Atheros wifi.
For add ons like phones and bluetooth, if you hunt around you might find a beta version of the driver.

I'm nuts on KDE, its much better than Windows for utilities, office stuff and surfing. Unfortunately there is no way to play Direct X games. I'm just going to keep a second hard drive with Windows 7 on it.
I read they were doing Direct X on Linux, but not much news yet.

Try several versions of Linux before you give up. Sometimes the compatibility is lost in one version. Start from a fully formatted hard drive too. Also check the options in the bios. You might to need change the silliest little thing in the bios to get it to install.

[stefcep2]

I got in to Linux in 2007, mainly thinking I could get the Amiga feel and responsiveness TBH.

I then watched my spare time disappear in to the abyss trying to get a working and booting computer.

Tried Ubuntu, dial up never worked with it (hey dial up was all I had at the time).

Went PCLOS, a ****ty 150 k file update for the cd driver that got installed in the rolling update meant I spent TWO weeks trying to get it to boot. Then some other update killed the boot process, and I felt I was playing Russian Roulette. Told Tex the maintainer that rolling updates are fine IF YOU CAN TEST THEM. If you can't then do a release every 6-12 months. He told me to f-- myself.

Mandriva was next. Brilliant. Loved it. Until they went to KDE 4.

Back to Ubuntu 9.10. Great. But only 18 mths support, so can't even update my browser. Heard too many horror stories about Ubuntu 10, so just stayed on 9.10.

Unity? Too many people hating on it. Sounds too much effort to get it going well.

So now back to Win 7.

I no longer give a rats about Linux and just use my time to DO things I need to do, rather than maintaining Linux's failings and annoyances.

[commodorejohn]

Originally Posted by stefcep2

I no longer give a rats about Linux and just use my time to DO things I need to do, rather than maintaining Linux's failings and annoyances.

This. As they say, "Linux is free, as long as your time has no value..."

[pixie]

Originally Posted by psxphill

The more Ubuntu takes off the worse canonical will become. http://www.maximumpc.com/article/new...dont_freak_out

I like this comment: "I guess if the current users didn't leave after Unity, nothing is really going to shock them."


Google haven't particularly played fair with android either. Holding back the source until their own device is launched.

So no, there is not one company that is doing the dirty. It's a load of them.
At least Microsoft writes the software they sell, Ubuntu & Google have taken the hard work of others to make money from.

You can modify GPL whichever the way you want without ever releasing source code, you just don't distribute binaries... if google had no device/binaries to distribute why would you think they din't fair when the license itself doesn't force them too? So they have to release the code they built giving each and everyone advantage over their own product? Is it fair? Or am I missing something here...

[TheBilgeRat]

Originally Posted by psxphill

Is wifi not important? I've been using wifi almost exclusively for networking for 12 years.

That's nice.

Tell me a distro that you think every single piece of hardware in my laptop will have drivers for and I'll install it on a spare drive & let you know how I get on.

Latest Linux Mint, latest Ubuntu, latest Fedora. take your pick.

Well he is a real Linux geek and it's a really nice bit of hardware with no shovelware at all. The speed was amazing. I am not impressed with asus or Lenovo hardware. The new xps 13z from Dell looks nice, but that's no good for you as it comes bundled with Windows 8. I tend to buy Dell stuff as their support has consistently been good for me, I'd always get on site support with accidental damage though.

DId you miss the point that I use windows as well? Or that I have Win 8 and Win 7? I code in c# and .net for real projects, which require it. I use linux for my python, ruby, java, c, and every other language development platform. I do work with my computers. I have a macbook laying around for xcode, except that now its out of date cos i don't have liger or whatever crap they are on, so I can't hit the latest Ios release without upgrading everything.

What I get tired of is the FUD. If you haven't tried linux in the last three years then you aren't current. If you tried it once and got pissed off because you don't know unix, you never gave it a chance.

Mark Shuttleworth is not trying to steal your money. Android isn't either. Linux won't save your marriage. It is, however, a damn sight better than microsoft for 80% of the population who does nothing but surf the web and check email with the occasional solitaire game. The driver support these days is superb. These aren't opinions, they are fact. You don't like it? Don't use it, but don't speak to it when the reality is you don't know anything about it.

[TheBilgeRat]

Originally Posted by commodorejohn

This. As they say, "Linux is free, as long as your time has no value..."

Nobody but you says this.

[runequester]

Originally Posted by commodorejohn

This. As they say, "Linux is free, as long as your time has no value..."

My counterpart from personal experience with windows over the years would be "Don't get too attached to your data"


Personal anecdotes of "this didn't work" aren't monster helpfull though, on either side. I have never had hardware on my machines not work out of the box on a linux install, whereas I don't think I've ever had a windows install where everything worked.
As a consequence, I refuse to use it anymore. Too much time wasted, too many bridges burnt, too many things going on without any way of figuring out why something broke. (and on software that I paid good money for too)

Other's will have the complete opposite experience. But we used different machines at different times, under different circumstances. So comparing it won't really be a lot of help to either.



What is absolutely the truth though is that anything that doesn't work according to "OS the speaker is familiar with" is crap, and the annoyances that "OS the speaker is familiar with" has are no big deal.

I can't stand lacking multiple desktops at windows 7 at work, but other's wouldn't care, because they never got used to that feature f.x. Ditto for whatever is your particular favourite thing.

[runequester]

Originally Posted by psxphill

So no, there is not one company that is doing the dirty. It's a load of them.
At least Microsoft writes the software they sell, Ubuntu & Google have taken the hard work of others to make money from.

Yes, corporations are ****. Without exception.
This is silly though:

That's how open source works. Everyone can use it. That's the entire damn point.

With patent warfare becoming the default operation of the corporate environment, we desperately need alternatives if innovation is going to actually happen.

http://www.pwc.com/us/en/press-relea...ingement.jhtml

Fancy your start up company risking a billion dollars in damages for violating a patent?

[commodorejohn]

Originally Posted by TheBilgeRat

Nobody but you says this.

http://www.google.com/search?q=linux...e+has+no+value

[psxphill]

Originally Posted by TheBilgeRat

Latest Linux Mint, latest Ubuntu, latest Fedora. take your pick.

Which one is best?

Originally Posted by runequester

I can't stand lacking multiple desktops at windows 7 at work, but other's wouldn't care, because they never got used to that feature f.x. Ditto for whatever is your particular favourite thing.

I tried it back in the 9x years when Norton (?) included it in one of their packages. I never got on with it, but there are multiple add on's that allow you to do it.

Microsoft even has one of their own that has been recently updated (I assume for windows 8). http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/s.../cc817881.aspx

or an open source one that appears to still be going http://virtuawin.sourceforge.net/