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[freqmax]

Originally Posted by SamuraiCrow

Because the I/O chips have to map into memory somewhere.

So you map away sections of the ram that overlapps with I/O or ROM:s to make use every address. The rest could be used for RTG with own memory, or ram disk etc.

The best overall setup seems to create a standard sized FPGA board with a standard connection between boards. Then a model (A1000, 500, 1200, 3000 etc) specific board that match external connector placement.

Acceleration can be arranged by using optimized HDL-code for the FPGA as well as feature models that will be even faster. PowerPC implementation should be put in sight as a feature project.

[FrenchShark]

Hello,

I have been toying the idea for 2 years. I have already precisely measured the connector spacing of my A1200. I also reversed engineered the keyboard schematics.

For those who want to measure the connector spacing on their A500 or A600, it is quite easy : use a flatbed scanner to scan the backside of your Amiga PCB and then a tool like Gimp to measure the spacing between connectors.

Regards,

Frederic

[billt]

An interesting idea, make an FPGA board shaped like each Amiga motherboard as I take it.

How about this: Use or design some standard module to hold the FPGA(s) themselves, which connect to each such new Amiga replacement motherboard through the same connections of whatever kind it may be. Then each motherboard routes the FPGA pins as needed for that motherboard. Perhaps not all pins are used in each motherboard, such as pins for Zorro2 on A2000 are nothing on A500, but there are enough pins for A3000 or A4000 as well. Perhaps a couple FPGA modules are needed together to fill out enough pins to do everything if A3000/4000 CPU slot is present as well as Zorro and all other connectors. The motherboards get simpler this way, they basically hold connectors, routing between them, level shifting as necessary to the FPGA modules, and whatever PHY type stuff at the connectors. If you need more than one FPGA module, they are all the same thing, not different modules in different places. Each motherboard may have a different configuration to the FPGAs, but the modules don't need to get specialized for anything, for reducing engineering iterations/redundancy. If multiple ones are needed in a machine, some pins will connect them together in a suitable way as needed per motherboard.

And while you're at it, swap ISA slots for 3.3V (or universal if slots can be that way) PCI slots on A2000/3000/4000 and give them an active bridge to be useful.

Would you intend to have CPU slots present, or expect to use softcore 68K? CPU slot makes PowerUP board usage and OS4 Classic possible for machines that take them...

Or, since we're reinventing things, why not turn A500s into A1200s, A2000s into A4000s, etc? Does that go beyond what you want to do, by leaving out people with broken A2000s now not being able to use their A2000 addons, and this is not what you want to do?

And then go crazy, put MXM laptop graphics slots in the keyboard style computers, muxing their outputs with the "Amiga" graphics outputs like some Zorro gfx cards can do (PicassoIV for example), maybe laptop mini-PCI for wifi slot, internal SATA perhaps if chosen FGAs can do that, etc.

[Azryl]

I thought someone had redone the Mini-Mig as an Itx standard layout?

Wouldn't this be a much better option?

A new case, a new PSU, a new motherboard with usb, rj45, ps2 ports, scan-doubled vga! Why polute a new motherboard with old hardware like zorro or cpu boards? Seems crazy to buy a new Motherboard to install old unreliable hardware!

What we really need is a proper production run of Amiga keyboards that plug into USB or ps2. This is of greater value for users of mini-mig or the proposed newer FPGA motherboards. I have a few A2000 keyboards with broken cpu's sitting in my cupboard! Its annoying.

Without some new standards how can we bring prices lower for interface hardware like wi-fi, usb or rj45? Amiga network cards and usb cards are getting harder and harder to source

Don't get me wrong I love my Amiga's but I would really love a new Amiga in a small tower with associated new keyboard and high precision mouse!

Wish list for me would be :-

A new FPGA based motherboard with PC standard layout (ipx mini-mig?)
4meg chip ram (much better than 2meg as a standard)
8meg fast ram on the mobo
A high clocked 68000 fpga implimentation
Kickstart 3.1

With this type of system I could get back into Amiga graphics and programming.

Az

[desiv]

Unless we like our original cases, which we do.

desiv

[mikej]

Originally Posted by Azryl

I thought someone had redone the Mini-Mig as an Itx standard layout?

Az

The FPGAArcade Replay board fits in an ITX case with all IO connections (bar diagnostic serial) in the standard IO window.
/MikeJ

[freqmax]

Originally Posted by FrenchShark

For those who want to measure the connector spacing on their A500 or A600, it is quite easy : use a flatbed scanner to scan the backside of your Amiga PCB and then a tool like Gimp to measure the spacing between connectors.

One can use a caliper though to replicate the whole board scan+gimp might not be that bad.

Originally Posted by billt

How about this: Use or design some standard module to hold the FPGA(s) themselves, which connect to each such new Amiga replacement motherboard through the same connections of whatever kind it may be. Then each motherboard routes the FPGA pins as needed for that motherboard. Perhaps not all pins are used in each motherboard, such as pins for Zorro2 on A2000 are nothing on A500, but there are enough pins for A3000 or A4000 as well. Perhaps a couple FPGA modules are needed together to fill out enough pins to do everything if A3000/4000 CPU slot is present as well as Zorro and all other connectors. The motherboards get simpler this way, they basically hold connectors, routing between them, level shifting as necessary to the FPGA modules, and whatever PHY type stuff at the connectors. If you need more than one FPGA module, they are all the same thing, not different modules in different places. Each motherboard may have a different configuration to the FPGAs, but the modules don't need to get specialized for anything, for reducing engineering iterations/redundancy. If multiple ones are needed in a machine, some pins will connect them together in a suitable way as needed per motherboard.

Yeah some "dumb" baseboard module and standardized sized and slotted FPGA-boards to plugin would be useful. ITX is nice, but won't fit inside an A500, A600, A1200 etc.

Originally Posted by billt

And while you're at it, swap ISA slots for 3.3V (or universal if slots can be that way) PCI slots on A2000/3000/4000 and give them an active bridge to be useful.

Better keep to the specifications. ISA is 5 V in all cases, even thoe 3,3 V logic is accepted at input. Any FPGA must tolerate 5 V from ISA cards. And PCI is nice but it is timing tricky and I/O heavy.

Originally Posted by billt

Would you intend to have CPU slots present, or expect to use softcore 68K? CPU slot makes PowerUP board usage and OS4 Classic possible for machines that take them...

Softcore 68k is likely the convenient solution. But CPU slot is possible with FPGA provided you have the I/O connections.

Originally Posted by billt

Or, since we're reinventing things, why not turn A500s into A1200s, A2000s into A4000s, etc? Does that go beyond what you want to do, by leaving out people with broken A2000s now not being able to use their A2000 addons, and this is not what you want to do?

By loading the correct image you can downgrade at will.

Originally Posted by billt

And then go crazy, put MXM laptop graphics slots in the keyboard style computers, muxing their outputs with the "Amiga" graphics outputs like some Zorro gfx cards can do (PicassoIV for example), maybe laptop mini-PCI for wifi slot, internal SATA perhaps if chosen FGAs can do that, etc.

This will likely increase cost in a non-benefitial way. Better to use plain junk PC for such uses.

Originally Posted by Azryl

What we really need is a proper production run of Amiga keyboards that plug into USB or ps2. This is of greater value for users of mini-mig or the proposed newer FPGA motherboards. I have a few A2000 keyboards with broken cpu's sitting in my cupboard! Its annoying.

Producing keyboards is really expensive. I know a larger organisation that did just that, the prices were in the parity of 800 USD/keyboard in larger series. Though maybe there are cheaper ways?, the pcb is cheap, the conductive rubber mat likely too. I think the real cost comes from precision molding many keys. the absolute cheapest is to modify existing keyboards.

Originally Posted by Azryl

Without some new standards how can we bring prices lower for interface hardware like wi-fi, usb or rj45? Amiga network cards and usb cards are getting harder and harder to source

Dunno what you mean by "new standards". But these peripherals are easily created with a standard FPGA + standard interface chip if you need one. The catch is writing the Amiga driver.

Originally Posted by Azryl

Don't get me wrong I love my Amiga's but I would really love a new Amiga in a small tower with associated new keyboard and high precision mouse!

FPGA Arcade will do that for you already.

[Mrs Beanbag]

an A1200 style case that takes a FlexATX motherboard would be nice. then you could make a FlexATX format Super Minimig board to go in it.

Why not let's go the whole hog and remake an entire Amiga?

[freqmax]

Most PC style boards, in particular ATX uses connectors that uses space vertically. And will likely not fit.

[Mrs Beanbag]

@freqmax: I say A1200 style, I don't necessarily mean exactly the same. There is more than enough vertical height at the back of a A1200 to accomodate a standard ATX I/O aperture of 1.75" by 6.25". A quick measure up yields just over 2.5" of height. There would not be room for PCI cards, though.

Although a form factor of 170x305mm (the height of an ATX board with the width of a Mini-ITX board) would be a better use of space in such a case, and would be compatible with standard ATX cases as well.

[billt]

Originally Posted by freqmax

Better keep to the specifications. ISA is 5 V in all cases, even thoe 3,3 V logic is accepted at input. Any FPGA must tolerate 5 V from ISA cards. And PCI is nice but it is timing tricky and I/O heavy.

5V is not that big of a deal.
http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~hamblen...DTQS3384AN.pdf
http://www.xilinx.com/support/docume...es/xapp646.pdf
http://www.altera.com/literature/an/an330.pdf

If the person designing the board can't get PCI timing right, then I wouldn't be very optimistic about the other things either... This would require someone that knows how to do this stuff properly with or without PCI.

And in the big-boxes, consider at least one slot having a PCI to PCI-Express bridge to a x16 plastic slot to hold a modern graphics card, even if it's only a x1 slot electronically running at PCI bus speed. (yes, that bridge chip adds cost)

Though I guess some people might want to continue using brigeboards or Goldengate ISA bridges and their collection of ISA cards. Did they do PCI to allow the user's option of a rear bracket holding EITHER an IDA card or a PCI card? Maybe do both, FPGA pins permitting of course.
http://www.kids-online.net/learn/cli.../sharedpi.html

Originally Posted by freqmax

By loading the correct image you can downgrade at will.

I was thinking more along the lines of putting an A3000/4000 style CPU slot on the A2000 replacement motherboard instead of an A2000 style CPU slot. (or if you're crazy enough and have enough FPGA pins, both) Then it could have a CSPPC card and run OS4 as well as get AGA etc.

Originally Posted by freqmax

This will likely increase cost in a non-benefitial way. Better to use plain junk PC for such uses.

A slot and some wires, should FPGA pins allow? OK, depending on version of MMX slot it'd require a PCI-Express IO capable FPGA. And someone to make a PCI-Express logic to drive it. Or perhaps a PCI to PCI-Express bridge chip from PLX etc. But leave the slot empty and leave it to user to choose to put something there... If I was the designer, I'd consider the possibility of modern graphics card in A500, A600, A1200, A1000 even, as a desirable possibility.

Originally Posted by Azryl

What we really need is a proper production run of Amiga keyboards that plug into USB or ps2.

It'd be easier/cheaper to make the reverse of the adapters allowing standard PC keyboards to work in Classic Amiga motherboards. Then use an existing Classic Amiga keyboard.

Speaking of keyboards/mice, I'd try to design things so that these replacement motherboards can take at least PS/2 with a direct pin adaptor, not to need the special Amiga protocol adapters. Not sure if there is a direct mouse pin adapter that would fit an Amiga mouse port to design toward, may need the special Amiga adaptor to PS/2 mouse, or perhaps a not done before direct pin adaptor can be done and move protocol part into FPGA, cheaper than special protocol adapters we have now? Someone else already provides PS/2 port to USB keyboard/mouse adaptors.

Also, if not an Amiga style accelerator slot, then consider making the motherboard a Com-Express carrier and mux outputs of that with FPGA outputs. (And FPGAs still on their own standard modules to the new motherboards) There's modern PowerPC modules for that standard. While they are not supported in OS4 now, maybe we can get there, and have as modern stuff in our Classic cases as we can get. And motherboard is still a relatively simple PCB doing little more than connections and close-to-port electronics (serial port level shifters, video D/As, analog D/As, etc.)

I just think that if you're going to the trouble to make a replacement for a Classic motherboard, then give it some modern update options where it makes sense to do so. I think that going to this effort and leaving out PCI would be an odd choice.

[amigadave]

Originally Posted by Azryl

I thought someone had redone the Mini-Mig as an Itx standard layout?

Someone did do a v2 Minimig in ITX format and the FPGA Arcade Replay Board is also in ITX format.

Originally Posted by Azryl

Wouldn't this be a much better option?

A new case, a new PSU, a new motherboard with usb, rj45, ps2 ports, scan-doubled vga!

The prototype daughter card for the Replay board has 3 USB ports & Ethernet RJ45 with the base Replay board having PS2 and scan doubled VGA already.

Originally Posted by Azryl

Why polute a new motherboard with old hardware like zorro or cpu boards? Seems crazy to buy a new Motherboard to install old unreliable hardware!

If the FPGA Arcade Replay Board's expansion connector has enough lines to support it, or FPGA motherboard like the Natami MX, or another newer design comes out, that would allow some users that want to use some of their old ZorroII/III cards, Video Slot cards, and possibly even Accelerator Slot cards, why not allow those users to attach a secondary board with those slots so they can build a fully backward compatible Amiga Clone, and the people that have no interest in those slots can ignore buying this secondary slot connector board. Zorro cards, Video Slot cards and Amiga Accelerators are getting old and may fail some day, but many Amiga users (like me) have a large investment in such cards and may wish to continue using them in a newer, faster, more expandable FPGA based motherboard system.

Originally Posted by Azryl

What we really need is a proper production run of Amiga keyboards that plug into USB or ps2. This is of greater value for users of mini-mig or the proposed newer FPGA motherboards. I have a few A2000 keyboards with broken cpu's sitting in my cupboard! Its annoying.

Without some new standards how can we bring prices lower for interface hardware like wi-fi, usb or rj45? Amiga network cards and usb cards are getting harder and harder to source

I don't see why you need a new production run of Amiga keyboards when the MiniMig and FPGA Arcade Replay Board (and soon Natami) already support using any off the shelf PS2, or USB keyboard and AmigaKit already sells Amiga branded keyboards? As for Amiga network & USB cards being hard to source, hopefully new drivers will be written to allow use of standard PC USB network dongles. Either that, or like what MikeJ is doing with his Replay Board daughter card that includes an Ethernet RJ45 port, and Natami that will have its own RJ45 Ethernet port on the mobo.

Originally Posted by Azryl

Don't get me wrong I love my Amiga's but I would really love a new Amiga in a small tower with associated new keyboard and high precision mouse!

Wish list for me would be :-

A new FPGA based motherboard with PC standard layout (ipx mini-mig?)
4meg chip ram (much better than 2meg as a standard)
8meg fast ram on the mobo
A high clocked 68000 fpga implimentation
Kickstart 3.1

With this type of system I could get back into Amiga graphics and programming.

Az

I hope that you will get back into Amiga graphics and (specially) programming with what is already available now and not wait for some new system. There are many different options for people that are interested in the Amiga.

[freqmax]

Originally Posted by Azryl

Don't get me wrong I love my Amiga's but I would really love a new Amiga in a small tower with associated new keyboard and high precision mouse!

Wish list for me would be :-

A new FPGA based motherboard with PC standard layout (ipx mini-mig?)
4meg chip ram (much better than 2meg as a standard)
8meg fast ram on the mobo
A high clocked 68000 fpga implimentation
Kickstart 3.1

With this type of system I could get back into Amiga graphics and programming.

An FPGA Arcade for hardware and AROS for software will do this for you with 50 MB RAM. If you can deal with 4 MB RAM in total Minimig can handle this right now.

Any suggestion for a C compiler?

Originally Posted by amigadave

I don't see why you need a new production run of Amiga keyboards when the MiniMig and FPGA Arcade Replay Board (and soon Natami) already support using any off the shelf PS2, or USB keyboard and AmigaKit already sells Amiga branded keyboards?

The closest resemblance of an Amiga keyboard available seems to be an A1200 keyboard that has to be put into a DIY flat box together with a microcontroller to make anything like a detachable keyboard that A2000, A3000, A4000 had. So didn't find any Amiga keyboards there.

And integrated keyboard with the rest of the computer is not a good ergonomic choice..

[Lord Aga]

Originally Posted by freqmax

Producing keyboards is really expensive. I know a larger organisation that did just that, the prices were in the parity of 800 USD/keyboard in larger series. Though maybe there are cheaper ways?, the pcb is cheap, the conductive rubber mat likely too. I think the real cost comes from precision molding many keys. the absolute cheapest is to modify existing keyboards.

Wow, so expensive !!!
I always wandered why hasn't someone done this already. I guess I know now.
But we actually need only the motherboards, controllers, cables... What else is failing ? We already have the keys and shells.

[freqmax]

If you can make CNC cut metalblocks coated with teflon and put in molten plastic under high pressure you might make your own keys. Make sure they are cured properly and absolutly free of toxic.