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Old 09-19-2011, 09:06 AM   #1
OlafS3
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Default Zune for all platforms

The Zune-project on power2people is splitted in several projects.

phase 1 is making it full compatible to MUI38.
http://www.power2people.org/projects/profile/61

In the next phase it will be ported to MorphOS and AmigaOS to have a common standard for applications.

Please donate and support the efforts.

What do you think? I hope for more common bounties to reduce the split in the community.
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Old 09-19-2011, 09:15 AM   #2
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Default Re: Zune for all platforms

I think this is an excellent endeavour - there are too many issues already driving the different camps apart. I should be donating as soon as I get paid
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Old 09-19-2011, 09:21 AM   #3
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Default Re: Zune for all platforms

But what would be the point of Zune on MorphOS, which already has the latest and greatest MUI ?
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Old 09-19-2011, 09:24 AM   #4
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Default Re: Zune for all platforms

It would be the point that you can develope on one platform without caring about the different implementations and not wasting time with additional testing and workarounds.
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Old 09-19-2011, 10:00 AM   #5
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Default Re: Zune for all platforms

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ View Post
But what would be the point of Zune on MorphOS, which already has the latest and greatest MUI ?
Well, if you only ever want your app to run on MorphOS then you are of course free to use MUI 4 and take advantage of its extra features. But it would be a good thing for anyone else who might like the idea of their software being available on all three platforms with a minimum of fuss...
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Old 09-19-2011, 10:18 AM   #6
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Default Re: Zune for all platforms

...and for a moment I thought someone was porting my Windows 7 phone sync software to the Amiga.
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Old 09-19-2011, 12:14 PM   #7
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Default Re: Zune for all platforms

@OlafS3
Thanks for creating this topic.

@Daedalus
Great to hear you're supportive. :-)

@JJ
As Daedalus has pointed out, the idea behind this series of bounties is driving enhanced cross-compatibility.

Also, it's worth pointing out why this bounty was created. Whilst the goal for Phase 1 is bringing Zune to be equal to MUI3.8, that is not the end goal.

The Zune Fix series of bounties intends to replace the Zune Enhancement bounty by breaking the goals of the Zune Enhancement bounty into more manageable steps. The main aim behind the Zune Enhancement bounty was having an open-source, cross-platform replacement for MUI that is equal to MUI4.

In other words, whilst Zune Fix - Phase 1 has moderate goals, the main aim of the Zune Fix bounties is far more ambitious. Imagine all platforms being able to improve each others software library. We've only been in competition with each other because of what happened in the past, together our software libraries can grow much faster. Why duplicate work when you don't need to?

That's not to say all platforms will merge into one, they can still differentiate in other areas, but for developers who want to target all Amiga platforms, fixing up and porting Zune will be a godsend.

I hope you will consider donating to the bounty.

@all
One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that kas1e (the developer behind many OS4-centric projects) has offered to help out whomever takes on the bounty with advice about MUI, so the developer will have support from others.

Anyone with funds in the Zune Enhancement bounty can move them to the Zune Fix - Phase 1 bounty by contacting André Siegel via bounties@power2people.org. This is what's recommended on the Power2People site also:
http://www.power2people.org/projects/profile/54

To people who haven't donated yet, here's a reminder of the link you need:
http://www.power2people.org/projects/profile/61

Go on, you know it makes sense! ;-)
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Old 09-19-2011, 12:53 PM   #8
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Default Re: Zune for all platforms

Quote:
Originally Posted by OlafS3 View Post
The Zune-project on power2people is splitted in several projects.

phase 1 is making it full compatible to MUI38.
http://www.power2people.org/projects/profile/61

In the next phase it will be ported to MorphOS and AmigaOS to have a common standard for applications.

Please donate and support the efforts.

What do you think? I hope for more common bounties to reduce the split in the community.
Porting Zune to MorphOS must be the most ambitious project ever. It is not easy replace something what is an integral part of the operating system.
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Old 09-19-2011, 01:00 PM   #9
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Default Re: Zune for all platforms

@itix

I wonder would it be possible to simply write a wrapper layer which redirects calls from a Zune app to the underlying MUI4? I'm not the world's best programmer, so maybe I don't understand, but surely code could be written to use Zune calls where they live alongside MUI4, perhaps with a modified compiler. Or am I just being naive?
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Old 09-19-2011, 01:02 PM   #10
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Default Re: Zune for all platforms

Quote:
Originally Posted by itix View Post
Porting Zune to MorphOS must be the most ambitious project ever. It is not easy replace something what is an integral part of the operating system.
How is the structure of MorphOS different from OS4 in this regard? OS4 allows MUI3.9 programs to run alongside ReAction programs. Why would this be different for MorphOS?

Besides, MUI4 is just a front end for functions provided at the low-level of the OS. It's the set of tools given to build a GUI. To use an analogy, it's the paintbrush, it's not the canvas.
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Old 09-19-2011, 02:04 PM   #11
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Default Re: Zune for all platforms

Quote:
Originally Posted by HenryCase View Post
How is the structure of MorphOS different from OS4 in this regard? OS4 allows MUI3.9 programs to run alongside ReAction programs. Why would this be different for MorphOS?
Because there already is MUI and it is part of the system. MUI failing to work you make the entire OS (the desktop, ASL, system tools) to fail.

And MUI being part of the system there is hidden stuff the system is using but not exposed for the public.
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Old 09-19-2011, 02:09 PM   #12
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Default Re: Zune for all platforms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
I wonder would it be possible to simply write a wrapper layer which redirects calls from a Zune app to the underlying MUI4?
Wasn't Bernd AfA doing something like this already with AfA_OS?
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Old 09-19-2011, 02:46 PM   #13
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Default Re: Zune for all platforms

Quote:
Originally Posted by itix View Post
Because there already is MUI and it is part of the system. MUI failing to work you make the entire OS (the desktop, ASL, system tools) to fail.

And MUI being part of the system there is hidden stuff the system is using but not exposed for the public.
Who said anything about MUI failing to work. MUI will still work. Zune can run alongside MUI, it's easy. Look at this MorphOS documentation:
http://library.morphzone.org/MorphOS...s_Organization

Quote:
graphics.library, is responsible for low-level graphics functions like drawing pixels and other primitives, copying rectangular blocks of display, scrolling etc. Many programs do not use it directly.
Quote:
intuition.library, delivers intermediate level graphics interface objects like screens and windows. Interfaces to user input devices (mouse and keyboard to name a few). Provides very basic user controls (gadgets). Provides also BOOPSI (Basic Object Oriented System for Intuition), a language independent object oriented programming framework, used commonly by other components.
MUI is built on top of intuition.library, which is built on graphics.library. Zune will also be built on top of intuition.library. There is no technical reason why it can't be. Hope this helps you understand.

@all
If you recognise any of the names of the people in the Zune Enhancement bounty contributors, please PM them so they can at least be made aware of the the changes to the Zune bounties:
http://www.power2people.org/projects/profile/54
Thanks.
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Last edited by HenryCase; 09-19-2011 at 02:51 PM..
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Old 09-19-2011, 03:18 PM   #14
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Default Re: Zune for all platforms

The problem is that Zune tries to be a MUI clone, meaning it replaces MUI's libraries, classes, etc. with its own and you can't normally run multiple versions of amiga shared libs, GUI classes, etc. at the same time for compatibility with specific app version dependencies (where binary app X needs version Y but breaks with version Y+1 and higher.)

A workable morphos version of zune would basically install nothing to some little bit for zune internals that practically nobody really uses, because they prefer to use the already port-ably defined MUI functions.

I think it was kind of silly to update the Zune bounty without a volunteering developer to steer it towards what they thought they could and would do.

Last edited by eb15; 09-19-2011 at 03:24 PM..
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Old 09-19-2011, 03:39 PM   #15
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Default Re: Zune for all platforms

Quote:
Originally Posted by eb15 View Post
The problem is that Zune tries to be a MUI clone, meaning it replaces MUI's libraries, classes, etc. with its own and you can't normally run multiple versions of amiga shared libs, GUI classes, etc. at the same time for compatibility with specific app version dependencies (where binary app X needs version Y but breaks with version Y+1 and higher.)
So you're saying that the MorphOS developers made no allowances for having multiple versions of MUI running concurrently alongside each other? I find it hard to believe that the MorphOS devs would voluntarily give themselves such a limitation. Are you saying not even applying Zune as a set of statically-linked libraries is possible?

At any rate, improving Zune will still make porting between Amiga platforms easier, so nothing of value is lost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eb15 View Post
A workable morphos version of zune would basically install nothing to some little bit for zune internals that practically nobody really uses, because they prefer to use the already port-ably defined MUI functions.
Which version of MUI is available on all platforms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eb15 View Post
I think it was kind of silly to update the Zune bounty without a volunteering developer to steer it towards what they thought they could and would do.
Read this thread and you'll see we did have developers guiding the new bounty:
http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/v...C&type=&mode=0
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Old 09-19-2011, 04:50 PM   #16
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Default Re: Zune for all platforms

Quote:
Originally Posted by eb15 View Post
The problem is that Zune tries to be a MUI clone, meaning it replaces MUI's libraries, classes, etc. with its own and you can't normally run multiple versions of amiga shared libs, GUI classes, etc. at the same time for compatibility with specific app version dependencies (where binary app X needs version Y but breaks with version Y+1 and higher.)

A workable morphos version of zune would basically install nothing to some little bit for zune internals that practically nobody really uses, because they prefer to use the already port-ably defined MUI functions.
This is what I was saying about maybe a Zune API with something like _zune_ prefix, so instead of opening mui.library or BetterString.mcc, you open _zune_mui.library or _zune_BetterString.mcc. Surely a simple prefix like that could be implemented as a compiler directive in a modified compiler, and so would require a minimum of porting effort. The _zune_ libraries could then either pass through to the relevant real MUI library, or implement their own routines if incompatible.

This would also allow it to run on OS4, just in case there are issues with the modified MUI3.9 included in Update 3...
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Old 09-19-2011, 05:08 PM   #17
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Default Re: Zune for all platforms

@Daedalus
Surely it's much simpler than that though.

When you write a program using MUI, you need to reference the MUI header file(s). As long as the Zune header files are named differently, it doesn't matter that the functions contained within them are named the same as their MUI equivalents, as the compiler will link to the functions you intended to use.

Perhaps the view that MUI and Zune cannot co-exist is being put forward by non-coders?

@all
We're allowing this thread to be derailed, the bounty is the main topic, please help us drive Zune forward for the benefit of all the Amiga community:
http://www.power2people.org/projects/profile/61
Thanks.
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Old 09-19-2011, 08:11 PM   #18
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Default Re: Zune for all platforms

I think the point is, that opening "muimaster.library" will point to MUI on a MorphOS machine and Zune will be unnecessary. You'd have to rename the library so it would be incompatible with MUI apps everywhere expecting to open "muimaster.library". In short, the best solutuion would be to make Zune compatible with MUI for all AROS flavors and OS 3 since there's no point in registerring Zune, and OS 4 could use a future Zune that is compatible with MorphOS' MUI versions.

BTW, I'd appreciate some help with MUI Builder some time. I have little experience coding GUIs and would like to add support for the NList family of MUI Custom Classes.
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Old 09-20-2011, 06:53 AM   #19
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Default Re: Zune for all platforms

Quote:
Originally Posted by HenryCase View Post
@Daedalus
Surely it's much simpler than that though.

When you write a program using MUI, you need to reference the MUI header file(s). As long as the Zune header files are named differently, it doesn't matter that the functions contained within them are named the same as their MUI equivalents, as the compiler will link to the functions you intended to use.

Perhaps the view that MUI and Zune cannot co-exist is being put forward by non-coders?
While you could prepare a Zune that'd run alongside MUI on MorphOS, you would indeed need to compile all apps for it with modified headers so that all classes would use a different name (a prefix, like some "non-coder" here suggested could work, but not in the compiler but in headers obviously This of course means that you cannot compile a single binary that'd run using Zune or MUI depending on what's installed. You cannot replace MUI with Zune on MorphOS because MorphOS (for instance, intuition.library) relies on its internals heavily (structures, private methods, attributes, etc). Since those methods are, well, private, they wouldn't be available in Zune. And what would be the point of having two libraries alongside doing virtually the same (but Zune doing obviously less than MUI 4.0 and being poorly integrated)?
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Old 09-20-2011, 07:01 AM   #20
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Default Re: Zune for all platforms

Quote:
Originally Posted by HenryCase View Post
So you're saying that the MorphOS developers made no allowances for having multiple versions of MUI running concurrently alongside each other? I find it hard to believe that the MorphOS devs would voluntarily give themselves such a limitation. Are you saying not even applying Zune as a set of statically-linked libraries is possible?
I suggest you read up on the early AmigaOS design concepts like shared libraries and BOOPSI. Since MUI uses both, it obviously cannot run alongside another set of libs/classes unless they would all use a different name (say, a prefix). That'd also mean only programs compiled for the cloned one specifically would use the clone. What would be the point of this? Static linking is against the public class concept, you'd have to modify the client sources a lot in order to be able to use a statically linked Zune (for instance, all places where subclasses are initialized).

Quote:
Which version of MUI is available on all platforms?
AmigaOS 3.x and 4.x have MUI 3.8/9, MorphOS is based on MUI 4 and won't work with anything older.
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