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Old 01-13-2006, 09:51 AM   #141
yester64
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Default Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors

[quote]
Piru wrote:
@yester64
Quote:
If someone has no freaking knowledge about compiling he/she has to stick with what ever comes with the disk.
Quote:
Piru wrote:Hmmm, and he/she can't use binary packages?
Last I checked I could install and keep uptodate linux without any compiling.
Yes, that would be fine. But the truth is, there are software were you don't get a binaery. Of course, you maybe stick just to whats available as a binaery.


Quote:
And the linux community, well most have the "read the stupid howto faq" attitute, which makes you hate linux pretty much.
Quote:
Piru wrote:Yeah well, at least the faq is there to read. Agreed some of the community are a bit rude, but I've always found help when I needed it.
Still they do have a point: If you're never going to try to solve the problems yourself, you're never going to learn either. And, if you're not ready to learn, then Windows XP is better for you... :-)
Thats not the point. The point is, that a system should be userfriendly. I've seen Linux for awhile and yes, its getting better.
But still, if it comes to the ease of use, windows is a better choice. Or you don't see linux as a competing system to windows. Then it does not matter at all.
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Old 01-13-2006, 10:14 AM   #142
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Default Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors

Quote:
Nitro wrote:
Why should OS4 be ported to x86? I think AROS has came along way. Anyone who feels they must have an AmigaOS on x86 can use it. It`s open source, Aros users are all for people helping to develope it. It may one day be better than OS4. They choices are all ready in front of everyone. It doesn`t have a big AMIGA sticker on it. (Just for hobby users)

And you have answered the "why" question.

Aros has came a long way....It may ONE DAY be better than OS4...

OS4 could be recompiled to x86 in no time (and probably already has been) and in an instant it would be lightyears ahead of Aros. The Amiga community has always been fractured by people wanting to protect their interests as opposed to moving the platform forward. It looks like Aros is potentially another one. If AmigaOS was ported to x86, what would that do to Aros?
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Old 01-13-2006, 10:19 AM   #143
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Default Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors

Quote:
A3KOne wrote:
Quote:
Nitro wrote:
Why should OS4 be ported to x86? I think AROS has came along way. Anyone who feels they must have an AmigaOS on x86 can use it. It`s open source, Aros users are all for people helping to develope it. It may one day be better than OS4. They choices are all ready in front of everyone. It doesn`t have a big AMIGA sticker on it. (Just for hobby users)

And you have answered the "why" question.

Aros has came a long way....It may ONE DAY be better than OS4...

OS4 could be recompiled to x86 in no time (and probably already has been) and in an instant it would be lightyears ahead of Aros. The Amiga community has always been fractured by people wanting to protect their interests as opposed to moving the platform forward. It looks like Aros is potentially another one. If AmigaOS was ported to x86, what would that do to Aros?
Nothing would change for the AROS team, AROS isn't x86... it multiplatform! Actually the x86 version of AROS might gain some software if anyone made something for the x86 verison of AOS4 :-D
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Old 01-13-2006, 10:55 AM   #144
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Default Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors

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Ok there is enough logic in your post, that even I can see that the only future for now is x86. Scary.
X86 is dead, X86-64 is the future.

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Old 01-13-2006, 10:59 AM   #145
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Default Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors

The Amiga was defined over hardware & software. So yes, hardware is also an issue.
The thing is, that there is only the system left. So no hardware.
Today you use, what everybody uses as a machine. So nothing special anymore.
The software is nice, but it is only intended for those who like use an modern Amiga OS today, not for the masses, which is contrare to the Amiga idea.
Personally, i think any attempt to bring something out and place it on the market to compete against Windows, will have a hard, hard time.
A transition to a new OS coult be done, if developer would port their software. Well, that mostlikly will not happen.
It is unfortunate, but i guess, thats why most people own a PC and nobody, except Amigalovers, notice that there is even an Amiga OS.
I think, thats just how it is and i doubt it will change.
Like i said, to me Amiga as a machine is death. As far as software i agree that the Amiga OS getting better and more modern. But it is only targeted to Amiga owners. Well, i guess thats fine. :-(
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Old 01-13-2006, 11:13 AM   #146
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Default Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors

@ dammy X86 is dead, X86-64 is the future.

Ok you know what I meant. Instead of pancakes it`s waffles we should think about.
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Old 01-13-2006, 01:34 PM   #147
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Default Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors

Quote:
A3KOne wrote:

The Amiga community has always been fractured by people wanting to protect their interests as opposed to moving the platform forward. It looks like Aros is potentially another one. If AmigaOS was ported to x86, what would that do to Aros?
AROS is open source so by default the code can be used to improve other platforms, be it MorphOS, OS4 or OS4/x86.

Staf.
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Old 01-13-2006, 03:18 PM   #148
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Default Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors

Quote:
Fats wrote:
Quote:
A3KOne wrote:

The Amiga community has always been fractured by people wanting to protect their interests as opposed to moving the platform forward. It looks like Aros is potentially another one. If AmigaOS was ported to x86, what would that do to Aros?
AROS is open source so by default the code can be used to improve other platforms, be it MorphOS, OS4 or OS4/x86.

Staf.
I don't disagree with you, but my point remains.

It appears that Aros may have created yet another faction that does not want any future for Amiga unless it is of their design. At least that I what I get from some of the posts.

There are many in the Morphos Community that are that way. IF Amiga Inc would have produced a top notch machine with powerful custom coprocessors and updated the OS to modern standards, many in Camp Morphos would have written pages telling everyone how bad it is. There are a large number in the Amiga community that do not care about it at all...they are motivated only by their own desires and if something is not in their designs, it is wrong.

This same thread has been going on over on aw.net and Dave Haynie himself has been involved. I agree with pretty much everything he has said over there.

What Hyperion is doing is akin to this...
Imagine that computers were cars and the OS is the fuel...the Amiga was a car and fuel provider that was decade ahead of Ford and Chevrolet (or Daimler or whoever) and Microsoft (the fuel company). Amiga did not build a car for two decades and the fuel stayed the same.

Now Hyperion has upgraded the fuel but has made it where it works exclusively in an ugly car that gets horrible fuel mileage, runs really slow, breaks down a lot and has no one to work on it, and has horrible safety and emissions ratings, that no one drives, few people want, and fewer people can afford.

In the mean while, Chevrolet has built a car that goes really fast, gets great gas mileage, is reliable, cheap to repair, parts are readily available for it, and it is safe...and it costs less than half what the Amiga car costs. There are tens of millions of people driving it already and many are looking for a better performing fuel, including several million who were Amiga drivers twenty years ago and would love to relive the memory.

Hyperion is afraid that if their gas will work in the Chevrolet, people will pump it and drive off without paying for it, when the fact is that people who want to steal gas will steal it anyway.

They are not looking at the fact that so few people will buy their gas that they will not make anything anyway. If it ran in the Chevrolet, the amount they sell would more than make up for a few drive-offs.

Amiga on x86 makes sense.
I like Hyperion. I am a fan of their work...but...
If a fuel company did what Hyperion is doing, they would be the laughingstock of the business world.
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Old 01-13-2006, 04:09 PM   #149
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Default Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors

Quote:
A3KOne wrote:

There are many in the Morphos Community that are that way. IF Amiga Inc would have produced a top notch machine with powerful custom coprocessors and updated the OS to modern standards, many in Camp Morphos would have written pages telling everyone how bad it is.
Many bought pegs and use MOS because A1's were expensive/unavailable. I think many would jump ship and become reds if they could buy AmigaOSx86 for <$200 and throw it on their Asus board.

it would be hard to be a MOS advocate in an era where AmigaOS4 running on modern x86 motherboards kicks it in the teeth. it would be seriously hard.

Quote:
There are a large number in the Amiga community that do not care about it at all...they are motivated only by their own desires and if something is not in their designs, it is wrong.
We need to gentrify the community of these attitudes. This market has been beaten to within an inch of it's life already.
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Old 01-13-2006, 07:02 PM   #150
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Default Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors

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We need to gentrify the community of these attitudes. This market has been beaten to within an inch of it's life already.
Good luck to ya. I think you're aiming for the impossible because the purveyors of these attitudes will go to their graves before they change their minds.

Just look at the justifications:

- It was the only reasonable thing to do given the resources...

So, given that you have so few if any resources you take the option which will bring least revenue, therefore guaranteeing that there will never be any resources to do anything else?

- OS4 is meant for embedded systems. It was designed from ground up for that purpose

Funny, that was never even remotely mentioned until Eyetech's plans bit the dust. So, an embedded platform with a completely unfamiliar API, requiring a completely new learning curve for developers, and also no Java capability? Seems a rather cavalier and reckless approach to me, specially for a company without the resources to fund the spread of their platform themselves.

- There would have been all these x86 trolls demanding to know why it didn't run on their machine...

Simply a matter of drivers. Supply a properly designed API and documentation and people will write drivers. AROS seems to work on a lot of motherboards, though of course not all devices are supported. Amithlon worked on a lot of systems too, despite having problems with driver delivery. Just supply a compatibility list and the responsibility is with the user to adhere to it.

- People would be able to use Windows or Linux instead and they would choose that ahead of AmigaOS...

Ever heard of multi-boot? Of course people will use other platforms for what they can't do through AmigaOS. If the apps/games appear for AmigaOS, I'm sure most would use that; if not, then at least the user knows he won't be crippled. This is already the case to some extent with AmigaOnes - there are a series of things you can do as a Linux user for which there is no alternative under AmigaOS.The only difference is that they have to do it on expensive unreliable and increasingly unavailable hardware.

Hyperion don't seem to know what they are doing from a business point of view. To the outsider, they seem to shift their apparent aims to fit in with whatever can be passed off as most plausible at any given time, irrespective of whether they have the resources or expertise to service the market they are supposed to be targetting.

So, considering Hyperion's "business plan" is most likely vapourware, and the whole original premise of bringing growth back through PPC desktops is in tatters, what happens next?

Dave speaks a lot of sense, and has done so for years, but no one's listening. Now some - a minority - are starting to ask themselves: "Did we do the right thing? Were we really justified?". Well, it doesn't matter any more. As Mikey_C himself said on AWN: "the train has left the station", and those who made the wrong choice are left sitting on the platform. There are now only two choices left: ( a ) insist that it was the right choice regardless of the mounting evidence that would suggest otherwise, or ( b ) give up, move on and treasure the memories.

If there is a problem, it's too late to fix it.
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Old 01-13-2006, 08:38 PM   #151
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Default Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors

Quote:
Dave speaks a lot of sense, and has done so for years, but no one's listening. Now some - a minority - are starting to ask themselves: "Did we do the right thing? Were we really justified?". Well, it doesn't matter any more. As Mikey_C himself said on AWN: "the train has left the station", and those who made the wrong choice are left sitting on the platform. There are now only two choices left: ( a ) insist that it was the right choice regardless of the mounting evidence that would suggest otherwise, or ( b ) give up, move on and treasure the memories.

If there is a problem, it's too late to fix it.

I agree with all of what you said except for this last part.

One of the things that Hyperion supposedly has done is to rewrite the OS into a language (c?) that is easily portable to other architectures. If this is the case, it may be faster to port to x86 than to wait on someone to finally deliver a viable ppc machine... if they are willing to swallow their pride and do what it takes to make it happen...which I doubt.

One thing I have learned about the Amiga community, it is never too late. I would have thought you all would have gone away 5 years ago.

If they wait another year or two, then I might agree with the summation that it is too late.

I believe it will eventually happen. AmigaOS is not Gem or some other crappy OS...it is too good for it not to happen. It may take another owner or two and the community to completely disolve before one day we see a commercial or a print ad for AmigaOS...Hopefully it will not come to that.
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Old 01-14-2006, 02:22 AM   #152
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Default Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors

bhoggett, wot he said +1.

If only theyd ported to even a limited number of modern X86 boards, I wouldve gone out the next day bought said board and a copy of OS4 and had myself a AmigaOS-only-PC up and running that day.

I think there are more than a few other Amiga-folk who wouldve too?

To hell with hardware zealotry!

The Amiga cant afford it, anyone carrying on with that old tradition, should be shot down in pieces by the rest of the community for being self indulgent and short sighted.

On the other hand, if obscurity is what the hardcore element wants, they're more than welcome to it, just dont complain that your skills and knowledge are redundant in the modern computing world.
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Old 01-14-2006, 02:24 AM   #153
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Default Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors

Oh yea i'd def. been on that boat! (AmigaOS on x86 Laptop, not kludgy PAWS attempt stuff)
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Old 01-14-2006, 02:53 AM   #154
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Default Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors

Quote:
coldfish wrote:
I think there are more than a few other Amiga-folk who wouldve too?
I would have. Actually, I probably would have bought a couple. I still would. If it could go on a laptop too, I'd be there, though I know it's not quite the same game.
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Old 01-14-2006, 03:45 AM   #155
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Default Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors

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bloodline wrote:
Quote:
Nitro wrote:
I wonder what kind of a bussiness path IBM will take. Like you said they could design processors to compete with processors like the Athlon64 and Intel Core Duo. They big question is will they? Bill Gates said that Linux is nothing to worry about, it was IBM.
IBM aren't interested in the desktop (They never really have been!), they recently sold off their PC devision. IBM make "super computers", chips for others (AMD, Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo the list is endless) and they sell services...
One problem, IBM Japan is a co-developer of AMD’s Yamato laptop project. IBM jettison its PC division was a good move or trick since it also jettison its related debts.
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Old 01-14-2006, 04:34 AM   #156
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Default Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors

Quote:
A3KOne: One of the things that Hyperion supposedly has done is to rewrite the OS into a language (c?) that is easily portable to other architectures.
I'm not too sure about that. I have a feeling OS4 is just a bit too PPC friendly, and Hyperion will jump off a cliff to support this one CPU over all others.

Haven't they, already?

Politics ruins everything.

Quote:
One thing I have learned about the Amiga community, it is never too late. I would have thought you all would have gone away 5 years ago.
I think it's too late for an NG platform without starting all over again. The Teron really is a bare system, so it's pretty much a PPC and nothing else. There's not much that can be done from the hardware side of things. As for software... hello? How about a nice, modern OS with a new Workbench? Yeah, I've got your "multiplatform" right here.

I mean, so long as the file system doesn't resemble UNIX. "Send it to /bin" is not my idea of a well-organized system. MacOS X and Be have failed to impress me in this respect. The low-level interfaces are still obviously just UNIX clones. We should be going beyond that, like, using good old Volumes again, instead of mount points.

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Old 01-14-2006, 04:37 AM   #157
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Default Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors

Quote:
A3KOne wrote:
It appears that Aros may have created yet another faction that does not want any future for Amiga unless it is of their design. At least that I what I get from some of the posts.
Maybe this is true for some vocal part of the AROS users. (Like people with blood in their nickname :-D). I'm a developer working on the build system of AROS and in the future I would want to use this work to make it easier to make programs running on all amiga-like systems, of course if time permits.
I also own an A1 and develop for AROS. I happily use both. Other AROS devs are doing the same with Pegasos.

greets,
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Old 01-14-2006, 07:38 AM   #158
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Default Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors

Quote:
Fats wrote:
Quote:
A3KOne wrote:
It appears that Aros may have created yet another faction that does not want any future for Amiga unless it is of their design. At least that I what I get from some of the posts.
Maybe this is true for some vocal part of the AROS users. (Like people with blood in their nickname :-D). I'm a developer working on the build system of AROS and in the future I would want to use this work to make it easier to make programs running on all amiga-like systems, of course if time permits.
I also own an A1 and develop for AROS. I happily use both. Other AROS devs are doing the same with Pegasos.

greets,
Staf.
Hey Staf, you know that I would buy an x86 version of AOS4, I've said it a few times on the mailing list :-D
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