amiga.org
     
iconAll times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:07 AM. | Welcome to Forum, please register to access all of our features.

Amiga.org Amiga computer related discussion Amiga Software Issues and Discussion 68k AGA AROS + UAE => winner!

Amiga Software Issues and Discussion This forum exists for the discussion of the use, issues with, and fun brought about by classic and next generation Amiga software.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-04-2004, 09:02 AM   #1
whoosh777
Too much caffeine
Points: 5,031, Level: 45 Points: 5,031, Level: 45 Points: 5,031, Level: 45
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 114
Default 68k AGA AROS + UAE => winner!



here is an idea I have been thinking about for some time,


reading Fabio's comments in the OS4 vs MOS vs AROS thread it
sounds like this hasnt been done,


this idea will probably depress people of several other projects


but it could be a sound way to secure the Amiga's future,


step 1. Port AROS to 68k AGA!

why on earth do that? :read on,

Let me explain, 2 projects bypass all known issues:

1. AROS: this bypasses accusations of stolen source because its
open source. Hyperion by using AROS also give it their
stamp of approval,

2. UAE: The A1 itself uses this, thus it is officially endorsed!

Now the problem with UAE is that it requires ROM ownership,
thus fantastic though it is: I have been told that WinUAE
gives disk speeds of 58Meg/second and it has truecolour etc,

it has the problem that its market cannot grow except through ROM piracy,
at least not without Amiga co.'s approval,


And the problem with AROS according to Fabios comments is it cannot
run 68k binaries, that was never the projects intention,


So my way around all this is that if AROS is ported to 68k AGA,
that will then furnish an opensource Kickstart ROM for UAE!

I dont know much about UAE but it sounds like it emulates AGA custom chips
and 68k CPU but requires a 68k AGA OS ROM binary to be complete:
enter a very specific almost absurd port of AROS to provide
an opensource freely distributable reimplemented 68k AGA OS3.1 ROM binary,


This way 68k AROS AGA will create open source OS3.1 for all systems,
and the market can then grow, very fast because its for free,
and it will run on all known hardware: Mac, PC, Linux, Unix, A1, Pegasos,

and all existing 68k binaries will run on it,

who needs OS4 if you can do this?

68k AGA code can then be used as virtual machine code,
which means you can have closed source cross platform binaries:
so no need for Amiga DE which also tries this but appears to use
an undocumented binary format and requires a license fee or something,


this means that people can create closed source commercial programs,
IMO for a platform to take off you really need to be able to have
closed source commercial programs,


The Amiga co. can also make money by selling eg OS3.9 to run atop this,

whoosh777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2004, 09:12 AM   #2
falemagn
Technoid
Points: 5,991, Level: 50 Points: 5,991, Level: 50 Points: 5,991, Level: 50
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 269
Default Re: 68k AGA AROS + UAE => winner!

Quote:
And the problem with AROS according to Fabios comments is it cannot run 68k binaries, that was never the projects intention,
No, wait, that's not what I said, I said that AROS' aim has never been to run 68k binaries on other CPU's than 68k's, which is quite different...
falemagn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2004, 01:12 PM   #3
whoosh777
Too much caffeine
Points: 5,031, Level: 45 Points: 5,031, Level: 45 Points: 5,031, Level: 45
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 114
Default Re: 68k AGA AROS + UAE => winner!

by falemagn on 2004/4/4 16:12:33

Quote:



And the problem with AROS according to Fabios comments is it cannot run 68k binaries, that was never the projects intention,




No, wait, that's not what I said, I said that AROS' aim has never been
to run 68k binaries on other CPU's than 68k's, which is quite different...


-----------------------------------


seems I wasnt reading carefully enough,

whats the thinking behind this?

if AROS were to run a 68k binary such as SAS C 6.50 on an Intel machine,
what issue is it that you want to avoid?


Eyetech by using UAE endorse AmigaOS being run on any CPU provided an
official ROM is used,

Hyperion by using AROS code endorse open source reimplementations,

so combining these 2 endorsements we get that
UAE can be used on an open source reimplemented ROM?



-----------------------------------------

@KennyR

AGA? Why AGA? This is hardware dependent and has no future.

-----------------------------------------

really I meant the entire custom chipset, just for compatibility reasons,

interleaved bitmaps are a slow and obsolete concept,

new programs for a new OS shouldnt reference the chipset at all,
probably a good idea to read + write protect the chipset via MMU
for new programs to prevent the chipset being used,

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

@that_punk_guy


>Speculation on my part, since I'm no hardware/HAL guru, but no matter
>how fast you run the emulation,
>it's going to be held back by the architecture - addressing modes, registers, etc
> - that the emulated processor offers. And you can't change them, or you'n
>l break compatibility.

yes, but JIT emulation is pretty fast: Morphos people say theirs is 75% of
native speed,

really its only when you reach a slowdown of 400% that you should start worrying,

if you upgrade your computer to one which is 2 x as fast its quite a disappointment,
when its 8 x as fast then its impressive, IMO 4 x is the cut off point to be
impressed,


also you dont need that many registers, good compilers convert local variables
to registers on a many-to-many basis, you only need maybe 8 or even 4
general purpose registers,

in fact you could get very fast code without any registers due to the
fact that the currently executing functions stack slot will usually
entirely be in the cache, probably in the L1-cache,


the preoccupation with having lots of registers is a hangover from
the days when everyone coded in assembler,


also 3-address code eg "add d0,d1,d2" (d2 = d0 + d1 ) is also
of dubious merit, Motorola 68k uses 2-address code "add d0,d1" (d1=d1 + d0),

in fact 1-address code "add d0" (accumulator = accumulator + d0) is probably
just as good,

probably even 0-address code "add" (pop pop add push) is also just as fast,

one problem with 3-address code is that you end up with huge instructions
(eg 1 instruction = 32 bits: twice as big as typical 68k instructions),
with 0-address code you could fit 8 instructions in that space,

anyway the point I am making is that 68k's 2-address code with 8 to 16
registers is probably just as good and twice as small as PPC's 3-address code
with 32 registers: most of those 32 registers will be asleep most of the time,

example:

x = y * z + t ;

in 3 address code:

lea y,d2
load 0(d2),d0
lea z,d2
load 0(d2),d1
mul d0,d1,d1
lea t,d2
load 0(d2),d0
add d0,d1,d1
lea x,d2
store d1,0(d2)

(RISC code is like wearing a strait-jacket),

1 address version:

load y ; to accumulator
move d0 ; from accumulator
load z ; to accumulator
mul d0 ; accumulator = accumulator * d0
move d0
load t
add d0
store x

1 address code is actually much more in the spirit of the RISC concept,


Motorola 68k version:

move.l z,d1
muls.l y,d1
add.l t,d1
move.l d1,x

0 address code version:

push y
push z
mul
push t
add
pop x

:clean + simple,


the 1-address version certainly outdoes the 3-address version on all
counts: smaller + shorter + fewer instructions, fewer overall memory references,


the real gain of having eg 1-address code with eg 4 registers is
you end up with a huge reduction in chip circuitry
=> much smaller => much faster,


>Using AGA emulation in the way you describe is also... well, insane,
> quite frankly. Why toss the Amiga's established RTG system out of the window?

I agree, I'm not stopping you using the RTG system,
I am just thinking of the classic AGA machine as a bootstrap OS,

you can have all the modern stuff you want atop that bootstrap OS,
so eg you can and should have the RTG system,


doing everything via 68k means you eliminate the need for
open source + recompilation,

:it will save centuries of effort and eliminate truckloads of bloat!

open source always becomes very bloated

eg the general trend is for source code that exceeds 9meg compressed,
regardless of what it does, IMO a lot of it is
"tactical" bloat

manufacturing industry is totally closed source,

visit http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu to see what open source really looks like,

now visit http://www.aminet.net to see what closed source looks like,

which do you prefer?

I dont know about you but I only use open source stuff out of necessity,
I much prefer eg SAS C 650 to gcc, but some things can only be done via gcc,

gcc also has some really neat features eg it will convert c to assembler,

---------------------------------------------------

@Karlos

>UAE has to devote considerable CPU resources to emulate AGA at full speed
>(which is tragic considering how slow that definition full
>speed is in modern terms), the *sole* benefit of which is running
>various aga based programs.

but the AGA emulation will only happen if you make AGA calls,
so if you run a modern 68k program that makes no use of the custom chips
then that overhead vanishes,

>All serious amiga software of the last decade or so years has been RTG friendly.

I am not stopping you having RTG,

I am all for modern ways of doing things,

but whichever way you do it I think you need OS3.1 68k compatibility,
and you also want the market to grow. Probably also the Amiga OS has to
tear itself away from the central company and become a 3rd party OS,

all the really interesting developements have come from the 3rd party,

as far as I can see there is no disciplic continuity from the original
Amiga OS creators to Hyperion and they have delivered *nothing*,

ie I think they have no mandate


>Casting that aside, you have this notion of UAE as an "OS", running
>unhosted on your PC that gives transparent 680x0 emulation.
>
>I'm afraid it's already been done. Amithlon was pretty much just that.
>
>I could be wrong, but it still needs OS ROMs to work.

but Amithlon has been derailed by legal issues, also doesnt it need a
ROM to function?

I'm not against AROS reimplemented ROM to use with Amithlon,
same idea,
someone told me Amithlon itself makes use of UAE,

it would also be sensible to try and bring Amithlon to other CPUs such as PPC,


>A replacememnt ROM for Amithlon (and a general update of the whole thing
>wouldnt hurt) based on open source code would pretty much do the job
> you are asking, AGA emulation aside.

I am equally happy with this pathway, I dont know what is the issue
thats stopping Amithlon

>As for how useful it would prove to be, I can't say.

an emulator + a reimplemented ROM may be the only way for the
platform to continue,

IMO the only sensible path for OS4 would be to
use a 68k emulator + OS3.1 ROM binary for backwards compatibility,

you should be able to directly boot OS3.1 on an A1
after about 1 year since the OS4 project begun,

if reimplementing OS3.1 native is nowhere near complete after 1 year,
the project should be shelved and an emulated version worked on,

once a directly booting OS3.1 is available and for sale then
they can work on reimplementing it properly,

but you need to have some product out there and on the shelves,
and on peoples desks,


OS4 shouldnt even be thought about till OS3.1 is complete and
for sale: either emulated or "ported",


people complain about H & P but at least they delivered OS3.9
which I use every day,


Hyperion havent delivered anything at all,

they know how to grab the OS contract and never ever let go
but not how to deliver the product, not even a bad product,

--------------------------

@bloodline

From what I can see the biggest issue here is bootsrapping the Amiga
before the OS comes into play... if any Demos coders out there want to
have some fun again.. they could do worse than get AROS booting on the Amiga...

--------------------------

if they can get AROS directly booting from an A1 that will be a major
achievement,

will they also need to port gcc to that specific setup?

I would still like the ability to run my 68k programs,

maybe if they can port UAE to run above that version of AROS,

I dont know what the issues are in porting UAE,

whoosh777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2004, 02:38 PM   #4
BigBenAussie
Technoid
Points: 7,230, Level: 56 Points: 7,230, Level: 56 Points: 7,230, Level: 56
Activity: 18% Activity: 18% Activity: 18%
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 314
Send a message via MSN to BigBenAussie
Default Re: 68k AGA AROS + UAE => winner!

Whoosh777 was the sound of this going over my head.

Are you deliberately trying to confuse us?.....
Of course that could just be me. :-?
BigBenAussie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2004, 03:20 PM   #5
bloodline
Master Sock Abuser
Points: 39,716, Level: 100 Points: 39,716, Level: 100 Points: 39,716, Level: 100
Activity: 19% Activity: 19% Activity: 19%
 
bloodline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: London, UK
Posts: 11,968
Blog Entries: 3
Default Re: 68k AGA AROS + UAE => winner!

Quote:
@bloodline

From what I can see the biggest issue here is bootsrapping the Amiga
before the OS comes into play... if any Demos coders out there want to
have some fun again.. they could do worse than get AROS booting on the Amiga...

--------------------------

if they can get AROS directly booting from an A1 that will be a major
achievement,

will they also need to port gcc to that specific setup?

I would still like the ability to run my 68k programs,

maybe if they can port UAE to run above that version of AROS,

I dont know what the issues are in porting UAE,
Booting an A1 with AROS is not that hard, since the A1 has it's own firmware (The UBoot BIOS) to bootstrap the hardware... bootstraping a real Amiga is much harder since AROS would have to do that itself.. the real Amiga's OS and firmware are one and the same.

UAE runs fine on AROS, but some people would like to see it be able to pass OS function calls from the Emulation through to the Main AROS OS thus integrating it.
__________________
My iPhone Game: Puny Humans -
http://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/puny-...362230281?mt=8
bloodline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2004, 04:17 PM   #6
Methuselas
Kindred of Babble-on
Points: 13,484, Level: 75 Points: 13,484, Level: 75 Points: 13,484, Level: 75
Activity: 4% Activity: 4% Activity: 4%
 
Methuselas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Angeles California
Posts: 2,149
Blog Entries: 1
Send a message via ICQ to Methuselas Send a message via AIM to Methuselas Send a message via MSN to Methuselas Send a message via Yahoo to Methuselas
Default Re: 68k AGA AROS + UAE => winner!

Quote:
bloodline wrote:

UAE runs fine on AROS, but some people would like to see it be able to pass OS function calls from the Emulation through to the Main AROS OS thus integrating it.

I am ALL for that!!!! :-D LOL I still think you should change the name from AROS to MATT, with all the promotion you're doing.
__________________
'Using no way as way. Having no limitation as limitation.' - Bruce Lee

'No, sorry. I don't get my tits out. They're not actually real, you know? Just two halves of a grapefruit...' - Miki Berenyi

'Evil will always triumph because good is dumb.' - Dark Helmet

'And for future reference, it might be polite to ask someone if you can quote them in your signature, rather than just citing them to make a sales pitch.' - Karlos. (I didn't ask, obviously......)
Methuselas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2004, 06:48 PM   #7
whoosh777
Too much caffeine
Points: 5,031, Level: 45 Points: 5,031, Level: 45 Points: 5,031, Level: 45
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 114
Default Re: 68k AGA AROS + UAE => winner!


-------------------------------------------------------

@bloodline

>Booting an A1 with AROS is not that hard, since the A1 has it's own firmware
>(The UBoot BIOS) to bootstrap the hardware... bootstraping a real Amiga
>is much harder since AROS would have to do that itself.. the real
>Amiga's OS and firmware are one and the same.

to what extent is AROS an API as compared to an OS?

If you want to directly boot an A1 not via Linux,
how is this done?:

lets say you buy an A1,
you switch it on,

do you have to create a CD on another machine which you
then boot the A1 with?

How much facilities does A1 UBoot provide?

The code you would run on the A1, how is this created?

is there a cross compiler eg gcc or a cross assembler available
for doing this or do you have to create this first?

I suppose you could go through A1's Linux, but that is cheating,
also cheating would be to borrow Hyperions A1-gcc,

how did the Linux people get Linux on the A1?

A similar problem is creating a game that directly boots up on the A1
bypassing the OS and hitting the hardware directly perhaps through the
UBoot,


For the A1000 I believe they cross compiled the OS from Macs,
this is why Lattice C occurs on both platforms, it was originally a Mac
compiler and they used it to cross-compile AmigaOS (I think):

you then inserted a kickstart disk which loads the ROM to RAM,
and then you booted up with a workbench: floppy,

>UAE runs fine on AROS, but some people would like to see it be able to pass
>OS function calls from the Emulation through to the
>Main AROS OS thus integrating it.

if UAE runs on AROS then that is one way around the problem,
just run the 68k binaries on UAE on AROS,

redirecting UAE through AROS sounds quite a tricky problem,

I think this requires a lot of thought just to understand
the problem properly,

you are attempting to transplant one implementation by a totally
different one,

also some 68k programs may hit the h/w directly which the
redirection wouldnt understand,

it may be more trouble than its worth,


the only neat way I can see to integrate AROS with 68k compatibility is
my initial posting,

that way you completely remove the recompile factor:

both for you: just compile a reimplemented ROM once,
and for programmers: just compile a standard 68k binary just once,

same ROM + same programs then run on all platforms,

and all of www.aminet and geekgadgets and all commercial programs
eg SAS C 650 become available,

once OS3.1 is fully and totally reimplemented you can then
move forwards from this point using emulated 68k but in a
carefully thought through retargettable manner,

ie you would drive arbitrary h/w but through 68k as a virtual CPU,

so eg dos.library can be replaced by newdos.library,

Berndt said in some forum that one problem with dos.library is that
a program can do the following:

f()
{
char x[100] ;
BPTR fh ;

sprintf( x , "filename" ) ;
fh = Open( x , MODE_READWRITE ) ;
.........
}

x is a pointer to a string on the stack, however x can get passed to
another task by Open(), namely one of those filesystem tasks you see
when you run Sysinfo,

this causes a problem that it makes it tricky to have "infinite" stacks,

a popular concept is for all stacks to start at top of memory and grow downwards
via the MMU. This means that the stack is not public memory, ie it cannot
be accessed by other tasks,

dos.library needs to be redesigned so that memory supplied by a task
never gets transmitted to another task,

OS tasks should only receive memory allocated by the OS,
user tasks should be forbidden from allocating OS data structures,
:forbidden by careful API design which makes it impossible,


with exec its quite ok for a program to allocate a struct Semaphore
in fact thats the only way to do it: exec does *not* allocate struct Semaphores
for you,

the user even has to supply the name string which isnt copied by the OS
(see comment in second code fragment on p511 of RKM Libraries 3rd edition),

and these are OS data structures, intuitions API wisely prevents the user
allocating struct Window's,

now if the program does AllocVec( sizeof(struct Semaphore),MEMF_PUBLIC | MEMF_CLEAR);
thats fine,

really it should be the other way round: the only way to create an
OS struct Semaphore should be via some API call eg

struct Semaphore *OpenSemaphore( char *name ) ;

with the OS copying "name" to a properly allocated string and not trusting
the user supplied string
exec's AddSemaphore() shouldnt exist, or at least it should be an internal
private exec call,


these are design subtleties but IMO all the amiga libraries should be
gone through with this subtlety fixed,

OS3.1 has to be reimplemented AS-IS as specified in the RKMs because of
the continuity factor: programmers can then recompile all their programs
to AROS unchanged. via the 68k AGA AROS idea even assembler routines
can remain unchanged in fact recompiling is unecessary just reuse the
existing binary!

However once OS3.1 is reimplemented new improved versions of all the
libraries should be done to run in parallel to the original versions,

another problem to fix with newdos.library is to remove the restriction
on filename length, just replace the inbuilt array by a pointer,
similarly arbitrary length shell command lines should be done,

----------------------------------------

@IonDeluxe

UAE still needs kickstart, and I have not seen anyone talk about an open source
re-implementation of that, or I am blind.
I cant be opensourced until you getourd the kick rom.

-------------------------------------------

there is a blurred line between kickstart and AmigaOS,

apart from the bootstrapping I think most of the kickstart ROM
is just AmigaOS libraries,

if you have reimplemented AmigaOS you may be able to bootstrap
from this:

create by hand the initial minimal interlinked OS datastructures,

so they are self consistent and meaningful,
including execs jump vectors,

create an initial tasks data structures as if it were about
to execute its first instruction,
correctly linked into struct ExecBase,

all interrupt handlers in place,

:kind of AmigaOS in suspended animation,

you need to have total mastery and understanding of your reimplementation to do this,

enable interrupts and now jump
to the first instruction of that task: the breath of life,

that tasks program could be to open dos.library and intuition.library

(DOSBase = OpenLibrary( "dos.library", 0 ) ; etc in machine code)

and then using dos.library it would execute s:startup-sequence,
dos has an API call for executing script files:
SystemTagList( d1 = "s:startup-sequence" , d2 = empty taglist ) ;


dos.library needs to be up and running before you can even think
about s:startup-sequence,


I'm just second guessing here and there's probably many different
ways to do it, bootstrapping is a tricky nightmare!

whoosh777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2004, 10:58 PM   #8
whoosh777
Too much caffeine
Points: 5,031, Level: 45 Points: 5,031, Level: 45 Points: 5,031, Level: 45
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 114
Default Re: 68k AGA AROS + UAE => winner!

After making the above posting I realised some further things,

1. I think dos.library also needs to be set up by hand in the
bootstrapping because OpenLibrary( ) may require dos.library opened
thus we cannot use it to open dos.library, self-reference,


this is what struct DosLibrary looks like, from dos/dosextens.h:

struct DosLibrary {
struct Library dl_lib;
struct RootNode *dl_Root;
APTR dl_GV;
LONG dl_A2;
LONG dl_A5;
LONG dl_A6;
struct ErrorString *dl_Errors;
struct timerequest *dl_TimeReq;
struct Library *dl_UtilityBase;
struct Library *dl_IntuitionBase;
} ;

so you would do:

DOSBase = AllocVec( sizeof( struct DosLibrary ) , MEMF_PUBLIC | MEMF_CLEAR ) ;

and then set up all the above fields, so it looks like you may
need to also set up utility.library, intuition.library, timer.device,
by hand,

I dont see why you need intuition.library, nothing to do with files
except filerequesters, not sure you even need timer.device initially,
dos.library's Delay() probably uses timer.device, but for the bootstrapping
it may not be necessary,

so probably the bootstrap opening of dos.library
doesnt require intuition or timer (save a lot of work!).
Once the initial dos.library is open,
OpenLibrary() could be used to open intuition.library and OpenDevice() to
open timer,

you also need to set up the jump vectors by hand, possibly 200 functions:
write these functions in position independent code in contiguous memory slots after
the above data structure, then you can load a ready made binary in
one disk read (not using dos.library!),

add the offset of DOSBase to all pointers including the jump vectors,

if you are allowed to use an MMU then the bootstrapping could be reduced
to copying a large ready made binary from disk (without using dos.library),
this binary could even include a ready to start task,

you have to create that binary, but I have already begun this here online,
so you just continue.

One way is to create it in C, compile this to assembler,
via "gcc -S xyz.c -o xyz.s", then customise xyz.s by hand into position
independent assembler. Compile then xyz.s to xyz.o and link into an actual
program prog, prog then can copy the binary subset of xyz.o to contiguous
disk sectors,


2. The issue of 64 bit code, this can be done by extending the
68k Virtual CPU instruction set by inventing our own 64 bit instructions!

as its virtual we can design it any way we wish!

also we can probably do a better job than Motorola, (not difficult!),

I have my Motorola m68k series handbook here, and if the first 4 binary
digits of an instruction are 1010 this is unassigned op code!

So my idea is to invent new 64 bit instructions, not exceeding 16 bits width,
with some new 64 bit virtual registers, lets anticipate the future and make
the registers perhaps 256 bits wide but where we currently only use the
lower 64 bits?

complete with new stack pointer and program counter,

all new instructions would begin with the binary digits 1010,

we also would need to reserve a subset for future expansion,
16 bits is a lot of bits, so reserve 10101 for future use,

our instructions could all begin 10100...........

and they would be designed to be emulator friendly so that UAE and
amithlon can be easily extended. gcc would also need to be customised,

we could even email Berndt before finalising the design,

in case you are interested this is how Motorola allocates the first 4 digits
for 68k assembler, (if I have understood them correctly)

0000 = bit manipulation/movep/immediate,
0001 = move byte
0010 = move long
0011 = move word
(ie 00 = move, next 2 digits = size)
0100 = misc
0101 = addq,subq,scc,dbcc,trapcc
0110 = bcc/bsr/bra
0111 = moveq
1000 = or/div/sbcd
1001 = sub/subx
1010 = unassigned: I'm having that opcode!
1011 = cmp/eor
1100 = and/mul/abcd/exg
1101 = add/addx
1110 = shift/rotate/bit field
1111 = fpu instructions/coprocessor interface/M68040 & CPU32 extensions,

there, 68k summarised in 16 lines!

tempting to write a disassembler/assembler just for the
hell of it!

3. Regarding "improving" OS3.1, improvements could actually be
layered above OS3.1, so eg I mentioned Semaphores,
the improved Semaphores could be implemented via the OS3.1 ones:
remove some of the API calls, introduce others,

such layering will greatly reduce the work required,
alternatively just customise the reimplemented OS3.1 source,


I wonder why Intel CPUs got reimplemented by other companies but noone reimplemented the 68k CPUs?

whoosh777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2004, 02:54 AM   #9
bloodline
Master Sock Abuser
Points: 39,716, Level: 100 Points: 39,716, Level: 100 Points: 39,716, Level: 100
Activity: 19% Activity: 19% Activity: 19%
 
bloodline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: London, UK
Posts: 11,968
Blog Entries: 3
Default Re: 68k AGA AROS + UAE => winner!

Quote:
to what extent is AROS an API as compared to an OS?

If you want to directly boot an A1 not via Linux,
how is this done?:

lets say you buy an A1,
you switch it on,

do you have to create a CD on another machine which you
then boot the A1 with?

How much facilities does A1 UBoot provide?

The code you would run on the A1, how is this created?
AROS is an OS. It currently is able to boot x86 machines and Openfirmware PPC Machines.

If you were to Flash the A1 BIOS with an Openfirmware rom (written for the Terron), then AROS could boot it.

I would expect UBoot provides similar features to Openfirmware, all it takes is for someone to adapt the AROS Boot code.

A System's firmware initilises the hardware, and brings it to a known state. It then Looks for an operating system Loader on the available storage media). Once a Loader is found it is executed. The AROS Loader will then load the AROS "ROM" code into the memory, THat memory is then protected against writing (Since it must be treated as a ROM).
The Loader then preserves all the hardware info from the BIOS into a "safe" location... The loader then jumps to the AROS ROM code. AROS then takes control of the machine. AROS boots.

The Booting precedure is available for view in the AROS source code, and If you have any questions you can visit www.aros-exec.org where the devs can often be found lurking.
__________________
My iPhone Game: Puny Humans -
http://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/puny-...362230281?mt=8
bloodline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2004, 03:12 AM   #10
bloodline
Master Sock Abuser
Points: 39,716, Level: 100 Points: 39,716, Level: 100 Points: 39,716, Level: 100
Activity: 19% Activity: 19% Activity: 19%
 
bloodline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: London, UK
Posts: 11,968
Blog Entries: 3
Default Re: 68k AGA AROS + UAE => winner!

Quote:
For the A1000 I believe they cross compiled the OS from Macs,
this is why Lattice C occurs on both platforms, it was originally a Mac
compiler and they used it to cross-compile AmigaOS (I think)
VAX Machines actually. NO Mac of that time would have been powerfull enough (or enough memory/hard disk) to Compile AmigaOS
__________________
My iPhone Game: Puny Humans -
http://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/puny-...362230281?mt=8
bloodline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2004, 09:11 AM   #11
bloodline
Master Sock Abuser
Points: 39,716, Level: 100 Points: 39,716, Level: 100 Points: 39,716, Level: 100
Activity: 19% Activity: 19% Activity: 19%
 
bloodline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: London, UK
Posts: 11,968
Blog Entries: 3
Default Re: 68k AGA AROS + UAE => winner!

Quote:
>UAE runs fine on AROS, but some people would like to see it be able to pass
>OS function calls from the Emulation through to the
>Main AROS OS thus integrating it.

if UAE runs on AROS then that is one way around the problem,
just run the 68k binaries on UAE on AROS,

redirecting UAE through AROS sounds quite a tricky problem,

I think this requires a lot of thought just to understand
the problem properly,

you are attempting to transplant one implementation by a totally
different one,

also some 68k programs may hit the h/w directly which the
redirection wouldnt understand,

Ok, the UAE idea, is just that. Run a 68k version AROS on UAE, and run UAE on AROS.

All 68k programs will run in UAE, and they will make OS calls to the 68k version of AROS Running in UAE... That 68k version of AROS will be specially designed to allow it to call AROS functions through UAE. So whe the 68k program calls the 68k AROS in UAE to open a window... the 68k version of AROS calls the x86 version of AROS and that Opens a window.

when the user clicks on a window that is owned by the 68k version of AROS running in UAE, the event gets passed through to the 68k verison of AROS which passes to the 68k program.

If the 68k program tried to hit the hardware, it will have no problems since the Hardware is emulated in UAE.
__________________
My iPhone Game: Puny Humans -
http://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/puny-...362230281?mt=8
bloodline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2004, 09:19 AM   #12
KennyR
Guru Meditator
Points: 15,604, Level: 80 Points: 15,604, Level: 80 Points: 15,604, Level: 80
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 8,081
Default Re: 68k AGA AROS + UAE => winner!

AGA? Why AGA? This is hardware dependent and has no future.
KennyR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2004, 09:51 AM   #13
that_punk_guy
Energizer Bunny of Babble
Points: 10,865, Level: 69 Points: 10,865, Level: 69 Points: 10,865, Level: 69
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,526
Default Re: 68k AGA AROS + UAE => winner!

Quote:
whoosh777 wrote:
68k AGA code can then be used as virtual machine code
Speculation on my part, since I'm no hardware/HAL guru, but no matter how fast you run the emulation, it's going to be held back by the architecture - addressing modes, registers, etc - that the emulated processor offers. And you can't change them, or you'll break compatibility.

Using AGA emulation in the way you describe is also... well, insane, quite frankly. Why toss the Amiga's established RTG system out of the window?

:-?
that_punk_guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2004, 10:02 AM   #14
Karlos
Sockologist
Points: 50,618, Level: 100 Points: 50,618, Level: 100 Points: 50,618, Level: 100
Activity: 5% Activity: 5% Activity: 5%
 
Karlos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Barishabaad, Sardistan
Posts: 16,667
Blog Entries: 18
Default Re: 68k AGA AROS + UAE => winner!

AGA has had its day, and that day was some 10 years ago. Its only good for ye hardware banging 2D games of yore.

UAE has to devote considerable CPU resources to emulate AGA at full speed (which is tragic considering how slow that definition full speed is in modern terms), the *sole* benefit of which is running various aga based programs.

All serious amiga software of the last decade or so years has been RTG friendly.

Casting that aside, you have this notion of UAE as an "OS", running unhosted on your PC that gives transparent 680x0 emulation.

I'm afraid it's already been done. Amithlon was pretty much just that.

I could be wrong, but it still needs OS ROMs to work.

A replacememnt ROM for Amithlon (and a general update of the whole thing wouldnt hurt) based on open source code would pretty much do the job you are asking, AGA emulation aside.

As for how useful it would prove to be, I can't say.

__________________
OCA
This isn't SCSI... This is SATA!!!
I have CDO. It's like OCD except all the letters are in ascending order. The way they should be.
Core2 Quad Q9450 2.66GHz / X48T / 4GB DDR3 / nVidia GTX275 / Linux x64, AROS, Win64
A1XE 800MHz / 512MB / Radeon 9200 / OS4.1
A1200T BPPC 240MHz / 256MB / Permedia 2 / OS 3.1 - OS3.9, OS4
A1200T Apollo 1240 28MHz / 32MB / Mediator1200 / Voodoo 3000 / OS3.9
A1200D Apollo 1240 25MHz (ejector seat ROM edition) / 32MB
Karlos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2004, 11:51 AM   #15
bloodline
Master Sock Abuser
Points: 39,716, Level: 100 Points: 39,716, Level: 100 Points: 39,716, Level: 100
Activity: 19% Activity: 19% Activity: 19%
 
bloodline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: London, UK
Posts: 11,968
Blog Entries: 3
Default Re: 68k AGA AROS + UAE => winner!

whoosh777 has raised a good point, and that point is that the Amiga Port of aROS is seriously lacking.

From what I can see the biggest issue here is bootsrapping the Amiga before the OS comes into play... if any Demos coders out there want to have some fun again.. they could do worse than get AROS booting on the Amiga... We already have the 68k dependant code runnign on the palm... come on guys, we need you :-D
__________________
My iPhone Game: Puny Humans -
http://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/puny-...362230281?mt=8
bloodline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2004, 04:23 PM   #16
mdwh2
Cult Member
Points: 7,193, Level: 56 Points: 7,193, Level: 56 Points: 7,193, Level: 56
Activity: 1% Activity: 1% Activity: 1%
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 565
Default Re: 68k AGA AROS + UAE => winner!

Quote:
Karlos wrote:
Casting that aside, you have this notion of UAE as an "OS", running unhosted on your PC that gives transparent 680x0 emulation.

I'm afraid it's already been done. Amithlon was pretty much just that.

I could be wrong, but it still needs OS ROMs to work.

A replacememnt ROM for Amithlon (and a general update of the whole thing wouldnt hurt) based on open source code would pretty much do the job you are asking, AGA emulation aside.

As for how useful it would prove to be, I can't say.
I think that's exactly what he was asking (As I read it).

Amithlon doesn't already do this, since it also requires the official AmigaOS, but by making use of a 68k AROS, UAE (and Amithlon if one so wished) could replace the ROM (and possibly the entire OS) with a free open source version.

Talking of which - would it be possible to have a ROM based on AROS, with the original AmigaOS running on it? I don't know much about AROS, so I've no idea what level of compatibility there is..
mdwh2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2004, 05:43 PM   #17
IonDeluxe
Technoid
Points: 4,811, Level: 44 Points: 4,811, Level: 44 Points: 4,811, Level: 44
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 165
Default Re: 68k AGA AROS + UAE => winner!

UAE still needs kickstart, and I have not seen anyone talk about an open source re-implementation of that, or I am blind.
I cant be opensourced until you getourd the kick rom.
__________________
http://www.users.on.net/ionmane/Agai...og01Banner.gif
Quote:
I\'d post something satirical, but I\'m afraid it might get used as genuine evidence in the Thendic Amiga trial!
IonDeluxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2004, 02:34 AM   #18
bloodline
Master Sock Abuser
Points: 39,716, Level: 100 Points: 39,716, Level: 100 Points: 39,716, Level: 100
Activity: 19% Activity: 19% Activity: 19%
 
bloodline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: London, UK
Posts: 11,968
Blog Entries: 3
Default Re: 68k AGA AROS + UAE => winner!

Quote:
IonDeluxe wrote:
UAE still needs kickstart, and I have not seen anyone talk about an open source re-implementation of that, or I am blind.
I cant be opensourced until you getourd the kick rom.
When someone matures the 68k port of AROS it will probably (The is no technical reason why not) be included with UAE as the Default ROM. Obviously the user could use a real ROM if they wish, but it would not be needed.
__________________
My iPhone Game: Puny Humans -
http://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/puny-...362230281?mt=8
bloodline is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
aga , uae , 68k , winner , aros

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Winner Z4 busboard for sale Boot_WB Amiga Marketplace 6 07-11-2006 02:40 AM
Winner 4-DEV IDE Interface jgratton Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion 2 01-14-2006 04:22 PM
Elbox: Winner IDE jimmyboy Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion 1 09-15-2005 07:40 AM
Winner Z4 busboard for A1200 Eco Amiga Marketplace 1 05-20-2005 05:25 PM
Meteorite hits lottery winner blobrana CH / Entertainment 5 07-12-2004 08:01 AM