more innocent blood spilt...

[Glaucus]

Spain's PM vows to catch bombers (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3502218.stm)

The "mass murderers" would be totally defeated, Mr Aznar vowed.

How courageous of him! Funny how a few brave cliches can turn a defeat into a victory. In the end it's the innocent who suffer while the rich and powerful continue being rich and powerful. Welcome to another endless bloodfest.

- Mike

[smithy]

The "mass murderers" would be totally defeated, Mr Aznar vowed.

What he actually means is that Spain will continue sitting on its arse offering "moral support" to the American-Australian-British alliance, who always have to do the dirty work in the world.

Spain has a modern and capable military, perhaps they should put it to use instead of grandstanding with Morocco over pieces of rock in the Med.

[odin]

Let's not start a political bickering-fest about this tragedy right away.

[FluffyMcDeath]

I'm gonna post this in two threads,

Looks to me like Spain's payoff for backing the US is all starting to go terribly wrong.

http://www.newzimbabwe.com/pages/plane12.1527.html

And I'm not really thinking the train bombings are a coincidence.

[angrybrit]

Glaucus wrote:
In the end it's the innocent who suffer while the rich and powerful continue being rich and powerful. Welcome to another endless bloodfest.

- Mike
Good ol' Hitler/liberal mentality. :lol: ;-)

[KennyR]

No, good old Bush mentality. Hitler at least had the decency not to deny what he was doing.

[smithy]

Looks to me like Spain's payoff for backing the US is all starting to go terribly wrong.

Actually (if is al-Qaida), then it is Spain's payback for being a Christian country. al-Qaida has made it clear again and again that they will stop their war on 2 conditions:

1. Conversion to Islam.
2. Stop support for Israel.

This follows that the reasons for their war are:

1. Your country isn't like Taleban-Afghanistan
or
2. You support Israel.

A country isn't a target because it supports a military alliance, it's a target because it's not Islamic. And Spain is a particular target because it was Islamic in the distant past.

Other countries have been hit that didn't support the war - look at the Bali bomb - and Bin Laden even threatened Norway in one of his taped messages (Norway is hardly an obvious target and has been very quiet about the war - however, it's a Christian country, so a legitimate target in these fanatics' eyes), so let's stop this crap about assuming that everything that goes wrong in the world can be traced back to the United States.

[KennyR]

It doesn't seem to have been Al-Queda anyway, but rather the Basque separatist group ETA. ETA have been quiet lately but their campaigns have been bloody. In the 80s they killed more than 100 people in one attack.

If it was ETA, I don't really see what such calculated butchery does for their cause. Will it get a free Basque? No. Will it turn public opinion against their cause? Certainly. Will it result in the Spanish government spending millions tracking them down and rooting them out? Certainly. This will do for them what Omagh did for the IRA - ruin them.

But then, terrorism never was based on logic.

[cecilia]

This may or my not be true, just came across this:
Alleged al-Qaeda letter claims responsibility for Madrid bombings (http://www.cbc.ca/storyview/MSN/2004/03/11/madrid040311)

whoever did this is nuts. :-(

[FluffyMcDeath]

cecilia wrote:
This may or my not be true, just came across this:
Alleged al-Qaeda letter claims responsibility for Madrid bombings (http://www.cbc.ca/storyview/MSN/2004/03/11/madrid040311)

whoever did this is nuts. :-(

From the article:

"Is it OK for you to kill our children, women, old people and youth in Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine and Kashmir? And is it forbidden to us to kill yours?"

A good point, and one that many people were trying to make before the war. If we accept the legitimacy of violence against others, are we not also legitimizing it against ourselves?

The irony is that there is a good chance that opponants of the conquest of Iraq were among the victims. But this is the same as ever. The rich and powerful can feel safe when they start wars because the poor and powerless will pay for it.

[Tigger]

FluffyMcDeath wrote:

A good point, and one that many people were trying to make before the war. If we accept the legitimacy of violence against others, are we not also legitimizing it against ourselves?


France being against the war didnt stop Al Queda from blowing up the Limburg, not sure why you think this has anything to do with Spanish support for the war. I mean 15 minutes ago this was about Zimbabwe on your chart, now its Al Queda and if only they had supported the US it wouldnt have happened.
-Tig

[FluffyMcDeath]

Tigger wrote:

FluffyMcDeath wrote:

A good point,


I mean 15 minutes ago this was about Zimbabwe on your chart, now its Al Queda and if only they had supported the US it wouldnt have happened.
-Tig



I said it was a good point. I didn't say it was Al-Qaeda.

[mikeymike]

Good ol' Hitler/liberal mentality.

"Hitler" and "liberal". Hmmm.

Well, I'm sure it made sense to you at the time :-)

[restore2003]

And boys and girls, listen to this.....it`s exactly 911 days since 9/11 :-o

Freaky stuff eh? :-(

[FluffyMcDeath]

KennyR wrote:
It doesn't seem to have been Al-Queda anyway, but rather the Basque separatist group ETA.

ETA say it's not them.
http://iafrica.com/news/worldnews/308945.htm

if it were, it would violate their cease-fire.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3499477.stm
(from the above)
"Eta said it had suspended "armed actions" in Catalonia as of 1 January 2004 in order to strengthen ties between the Basque and Catalan people."

"Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar, who survived an ETA attack on him in 1995, bluntly rejected Eta's move."



If it was ETA, I don't really see what such calculated butchery does for their cause. Will it get a free Basque? No. Will it turn public opinion against their cause? Certainly. Will it result in the Spanish government spending millions tracking them down and rooting them out? Certainly.

So who does it serve? Anzar!

But then, terrorism never was based on logic.
Perhaps it is. Perhaps we are crediting the wrong people with the logic.

[angrybrit]

mikeymike wrote:
"Hitler" and "liberal". Hmmm.

Well, I'm sure it made sense to you at the time :-)

Replace the first occurence of Rich and Powerful with Jews and International Bankers and you'll see the obvious connection. :lol: :-P

[Glaucus]

angrybrit wrote:

mikeymike wrote:
"Hitler" and "liberal". Hmmm.

Well, I'm sure it made sense to you at the time :-)

Replace the first occurence of Rich and Powerful with Jews and International Bankers and you'll see the obvious connection. :lol: :-P I hope you're not saying I'm anti-semite here, because if you were I'd be rather offended!

In fact what I meant to say, is what others like Fluffy and KennyR have already stated: That the political leaders (of either side of the equation) are the ones who benefit here. We'll hear all sorts of rhetoric from Aznar about how he'll defeat those responsible - yet we don't even know who's responsible?!? I mean, we don't even know who really did this and he's already planning the victory parade! And if you need more evidence of this dispicable behaviour, just look at George Bush's political ads which exploit the 9/11 incident. These guys make no secret about the fact that they will use this "defeat" to further their own personal cause.

Of course the flip side is that the terrorists gain from this as well (otherwise they wouldn't do it, right?). But to determine what they gained you first need to determine who did it! Only then can you determine how to combat them effectively. Bombs and bullets alone are most certainly not the right response to this event - as it was not to 9/11.

btw, who ever posted that it's exactly 911 days after 9/11, well, that's a bit freaky and I doubt it's a coincindence - if it is indeed that many days.

- Mike

[restore2003]

@glaucus:

Yep, the bombs in madrid went off exactly 911 days and 17 hours after the 9/11 attacks.

THAT is NOT a coincindence :-o

[angrybrit]

Glaucus wrote:
I hope you're not saying I'm anti-semite here, because if you were I'd be rather offended!

In fact what I meant to say, is what others like Fluffy and KennyR have already stated: That the political leaders (of either side of the equation) are the ones who benefit here. We'll hear all sorts of rhetoric from Aznar about how he'll defeat those responsible - yet we don't even know who's responsible?!? I mean, we don't even know who really did this and he's already planning the victory parade! And if you need more evidence of this dispicable behaviour, just look at George Bush's political ads which exploit the 9/11 incident. These guys make no secret about the fact that they will use this "defeat" to further their own personal cause.

Of course the flip side is that the terrorists gain from this as well (otherwise they wouldn't do it, right?). But to determine what they gained you first need to determine who did it! Only then can you determine how to combat them effectively. Bombs and bullets alone are most certainly not the right response to this event - as it was not to 9/11.

btw, who ever posted that it's exactly 911 days after 9/11, well, that's a bit freaky and I doubt it's a coincindence - if it is indeed that many days.

- Mike
No, I'm not saying that you sounded anti-semite. I am saying that the tone and content of your first post made you sound like something a radical and/or left-wing extremist would say.

You raise good points but you left out a huge piece of the pie: Left-wing extremists and radicals also could benefit from this type of unfortunate events. Any means to discredit any party, organisation or group would benefit them greatly. And let them push their agenda with less obstacles in their way. After all, why wasn't Saddam properly dealt with during Desert Storm? Shiites would be more inclined to help us out if the U.N. (World) and U.S. hadn't abandonned them. Saddam killed many Shiites after US troops left Iraq. Who benefitted from keeping Saddam in power? Many questions are left unanswered. And like you said who's are the players?

Also be wary that Kerry used Iraq tragedy to boost his campaign, right? ;-)

IMO the middle-east is a huge ugly mess that no one wants to deal with. Especially the middle-easterners (themselves.) :-(

[Glaucus]

You raise good points but you left out a huge piece of the pie: Left-wing extremists and radicals also could benefit from this type of unfortunate events. Any means to discredit any party, organisation or group would benefit them greatly.Logically yes, but terror attacks instill fear into people and that usually means that logic goes out the window. Besides, people generally vote concervative when their way of life is threatened - and if anyone should know this it should be the liberals. Of course this does not mean that liberals are incapable of such violance, as those familiar with Stalin would attest.

- Mike

[Glaucus]

European press ask 'Why?' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3504032.stm)

The Spanish and French ponder who done it while the Germans and Polish call it Europe's 9/11. The Austrian Die Presse made an interesting comment:

...no security measures can provide protection from attacks such as the Madrid bombings because terrorism is "timeless".

"If it does not happen here and now," the paper says, "it will happen tomorrow somewhere else, because this is no longer about negotiations or concrete goals but rather chaos, suffering and cruelty."

The Russians on the otherhand empathized and took a more philosophical view:

"In blowing up the Spanish stations, the terrorists dispelled her illusions, made her less naive, less good-natured. One would like to believe they have made her more protected."

All in all, it's a sad day for everyone.

- Mike

[Damion]

A sad day indeed. :(

If these scumbag terrorists want to make a statement, they should
just set *themselves* on fire...publically, or something. Murdering
innocents is NEVER acceptable....and now what??? Everyone despises
them and their cause even MORE; they are doing nothing but forcing
governments to take further action against their own (already downtrodden)
people...so the cycle begins again, the innocent suffer, and nobody "wins".

[sumner7]

As I said in a thread about this in the general section, I hope that these people are caught. A sad day for spain. :-(

[Fade]

And boys and girls, listen to this.....it`s exactly 911 days since 9/11

Freaky stuff eh?
------------------

9/11 to 9/30 = 19
October 2001 = 31
November 2001 = 30
December 2001 = 31
Full year 02 = 365
Full year 03 = 365
January 2004 = 31
February 2004 = 29 (leap year)
March 11 2004 = 11
---------------------
Total days = 912


Seems Al Queda is running on a freaky calendar.

[restore2003]

@fade:

you got to take into account the time it was in new york, vs the time it was in madrid, eg the time difference makes it 911 days

[aardvark]

Of course this does not mean that liberals are incapable of such violance, as those familiar with Stalin would attest.

Ehhh? Stalin was hardly a liberal, just another one of those 'I'll live in the lap of luxury as a totalitarian dictator; the rest of you can all starve communally' guys.
Just like Ceausescu, Kim Jung Il, Castro, and others.

Now if you'd said Tony Blair instead of Stalin.....