hm, apparently no one cares about them

[Speelgoedmannetje]

I just read the monday newspaper(!) and I saw that there were aboriginal riots in Sydney. source (http://www.breakingnews.ie/2004/02/16/story134429.html)
It has been very quiet around this, never seen about such a thing on tv or so. No one seems to care.
But I WANT to know what the heck is going on there!
Are they being discriminated? Can they not cope with western society (with drugs/alcohol)?

[cecilia]

that's unfortunate!
even I know things have always been a bit tense between Aboriginal peoples and the "invaders" (if you'll pardon the expression).

i'm not familiar with the details but even someone like myself (thousands of miles away) has heard songs by Midnight Oil and figured something was up.
not to mention various films like "Once were warriors" (I believe that's the name). very cool film, btw.

[iamaboringperson]

the "invaders" (if you'll pardon the expression).The what???? :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x


.... by Midnight Oil and figured .....Probably the most ignorant moron's you will ever find!

(You should of heard an interview with one of them on 60-minutes!)



The ignorance here might make me too angy!!! So I think I'll stay out of this one

8-)

[Speelgoedmannetje]

iamaboringperson wrote:
the "invaders" (if you'll pardon the expression).The what???? :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x :-x
So you think they asked nicely to come to Australia?

[iamaboringperson]

:-x

[Speelgoedmannetje]

@Iama
Considering your reaction I suppose these Aboriginals are severely being discriminated.

[iamaboringperson]

Here's a story about Australia that is much more worthy! (http://theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/18/1077072711765.html)

[Speelgoedmannetje]

What does that story has ANYTHING to do with the trouble of the Aboriginals?
(And why am I reacting to such)

[blobrana]

@Speelgoedmannetje
Worrying news in deed.
I thought , and hope, things were improving...

But this may actually be a `poverty` riot, that could have happened anywhere...

I noticed that the Aboriginal flag is increasingly being flown by both Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal people. So it doesn`t seem to be that devided...



http://flagspot.net/images/a/au-ab.gif



[In view of its increasing importance in Australian society, the Government initiated steps in 1994 to give the flag legal recognition. After a period of public consultation, the Government made its own decision in July 1995 that the flag should be proclaimed a "Flag of Australia" under section 5 of the Flags Act 1953. The flag was so proclaimed by the Governor General of Australia, William Hayden, on 14 July 1995. ]

[Speelgoedmannetje]

blobrana wrote:
@Speelgoedmannetje
Worrying news in deed.
I thought , and hope, things were improving...

But this may actually be a `poverty` riot, that could have happened anywhere...
But I want to know what's the cause of that poverty. It is too much of a 'coincidence' that a hell of a lot of the Aboriginals live in poverty.


btw I never knew there was an aboriginal flag :-)

[blobrana]

@Speelgoedmannetje
Hum,
Yea, your right of course.
The legacy of past discrimination, and perhaps current discrimination (?).
(And i suppose it is `poverty` in the city, where as it may be a simple cultural way of life in the out-back...)



BTW, The Aboriginal (Doh!) flag is for ALL australians...

[Speelgoedmannetje]

I think it is a combination of two things: discrimination in terms of making it hard for Aboriginals to get jobs and that the Aboriginals do not really know how to join Western society. But I really think it's up to the Australian government to reach a hand to the Aboriginals they are the newcomers.

BTW, The Aboriginal (Doh!) flag is for ALL australians...Yes, yes.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

Btw, Blobrana, are you from Australia?

[blobrana]

No, er,
But there was a aboriginal guy who came here and stuck that aboriginal flag on the beach, and declared that Britain was claimed on behalf of the aboriginal nations..
<yes, true>

And it seems like the english queen is an usurper, as well...(to cap it all)...

Michael hastings who lives in australia is the true and rightful english king...
http://washingtontimes.com/world/20040127-092827-7878r.htm
Yea, it`s true....

[cecilia]

hey, cool flag!
A friend of mine, whose family is from Glasgow may have had a distant relative who was shipped off to Australia by the "friendly Travel agents in England".
And while he or they may have been forced to be in the lovely country of Australia, I have a feeling that the Aboriginal peoples see everyone that showed up on the shores as "invading". Even if they hadn't wanted to be there.

Something tells me that this early history may have something to do with the irritations suffered between the cultures.

(And I listen to Midnight Oil for the music - not for political instruction. I just make note that if they are singing about such issues, that these issues are out there.)

[adz]

Ummm...I don't think any of you should even have an opinion on this topic. If the English had not settled here, someone else would have and had no one settled here, I'm sure the country would still be stuck in the stone age.

You want to talk about discrimination, how about the discounted home loans, that aren't even required to be repaid, that are offered to "indiginous" Australians and no one else? How about the unlimited free medical treatment thats offered to the "indiginous" Australians, thats offered to no one else? You want me to keep going? How about the houses that are just given to members of the "indiginous" community, which, mind you, end up having to be demoloshed because of the amount of damage inflicted by their residents. Don't even get me started on the land. In all, they have far more rights than I do. From what I have seen they choose to live the way they do, to busy spending their money on beer and metho, instead of clothes and food. There are plenty of non-indiginous Australians living in poverty, with far less privlidges than "indiginous" Australians, do you see them rioting in the street, no!!!

Now, back to the topic, that riot wasn't even about poverty, it was regarding an alledged incident involving the NSW Police and an Aboriginal youth. Now, if the Police have done something wrong, then they will answer to the law, not a hoard of "indiginous" Australians venting their anger. I have no sympathy for people who disturb the peace, its counter productive and pointless, sure it gets them the publicity they desire, but the saying "any publicity is good publicity" does not apply here. Anyway, thats all I can be bothered saying, make of it what you will, you want to label me a racist bigot, so be it, but I prefer to think of myself as a realist.

[blobrana]

Hum,
From what i gathered from the article the alleged incident involving the NSW Police and an Aboriginal youth was only a `spark` that unleashed tensions already in the community.

And i`m sure that it said that the `rioters` were mostly aboriginal, so there must have been some poor `white` rioters there....

As for the causes of that riot i don`t know but perhaps
`free medical treatment` (etc) had a part to play in it, although that seems to me to be a bit trivial - (yes, it should be free medical treatment for everyone)

hum, i believe the aboriginal population currently numbers more than 410,000, (this represents about 2.2% of the population...)



[like i said Britain had been `claimed` by the aboriginal nations in the 1990s ;) ]

[iamaboringperson]

(I know that I was going to stay out of this, however as always I feel the need to correct people ignorance)


blobrana wrote:

...

http://flagspot.net/images/a/au-ab.gif

...


:-o

F*cking oath!!

:-x

Well, for as long as we're displaying racist flags, how about this one:

http://home13.inet.tele.dk/kloesv24/KKK-filer/image002.jpg

I'm sorry if I offend (and I'm certainly no klansmen), however it #OOPS#s me to see racist flags.

(Moderators: Don't like it? Your site. Moderate away!)

:-x

[iamaboringperson]

You want to talk about discrimination, how about the discounted home loans, that aren't even required to be repaid, that are offered to "indiginous" Australians and no one else? How about the unlimited free medical treatment thats offered to the "indiginous" Australians, thats offered to no one else? You want me to keep going? How about the houses that are just given to members of the "indiginous" community, which, mind you, end up having to be demoloshed because of the amount of damage inflicted by their residents. Don't even get me started on the land. In all, they have far more rights than I do. From what I have seen they choose to live the way they do, to busy spending their money on beer and metho, instead of clothes and food. There are plenty of non-indiginous Australians living in poverty, with far less privlidges than "indiginous" Australians, do you see them rioting in the street, no!!!Absolutely!

And if any foreigners want to know what a real racist government is, how about our own federal government?
TAKE A LOOK AT THIS (http://www.centrelink.gov.au/internet/internet.nsf/indigenous/index.htm)
Read through it - carefully.

Agree with it?

Racial discrimination certainly gives me the #OOPS#s, and this countries government is a prime example of it.

PLEASE NOTE, HOWEVER, THAT NOT ALL ABORIGINAL PEOPLE ACCEPT THE SPECIAL TREATMENT.

I don't hate aboriginal people, I do however hate those who will gladly accept the special treatment from the government etc.

Some things about this country that I hate are as follows:
1. Racist governemt
2. Racist #OOPS# heads, who damand and take advantage of special privliges
3. Anybody who supports racist regiemes
4. Bleeding heart socialist wankers who want to give this 'race' anything they want, just because they cry hard enough
5. Forreigners who can't research the facts before deciding what's best for this country - Australia

[iamaboringperson]

(yes, it should be free medical treatment for everyone)Why so?


Tell me, should people be forced to work for another person? (i.e. slavery)

[blobrana]

@iamaboringperson

In Britain EVERYONE is entitled to free medical treatment , its just how its done here.
We (well most) pay taxes, and we WANT to pay, to keep it that way.
No one should be FORCED to work for anybody else.
You should be free to do nothing.... ;)
Hehe, The Aborigines only make up 2.2% of the population, are they such a burden on you economy that you have to get uptight about it?

Is that aboriginal flag racist? It`s meant for the whole of australia according to the international flag committee, and it includes All the people.
Or are you putting you own opinions onto it?


@adz
<quote>
"I don't think any of you should even have an opinion on this topic."
</quote>

Hehe,
That`s like saying we can`t talk about mars because we`re not martians.
( In scotland we have TV, and the internet and are quite capable of grasping whats happening in another country.) :-)

[T_Bone]

blobrana wrote:
@iamaboringperson

In Britain EVERYONE is entitled to free medical treatment , its just how its done here.
We (well most) pay taxes, and we WANT to pay, to keep it that way.
No one should be FORCED to work for anybody else.
When you pay those taxes, you are being forced to work for someone else. You don't have the option of not paying for the medical care of others.

[blobrana]

Well technically yes...
But that `somebody else` is society (which includes you)...I just prefer a society that treats people without prejudice or favouritism. The alternative is a two tier system where only those that can afford it can have medical treatment.

And no-one is forcing you to work, you have the choise of being unemployed in which case you don`t pay anything...
But realistically, who really minds paying for their own security or future welfare.

[T_Bone]

blobrana wrote:
Well technically yes...
But that `somebody else` is society (which includes you)...I just prefer a society that treats people without prejudice or favouritism.
A society like you describe shows favoritism to those who don't contribute, and discriminates against those that do.
The alternative is a two tier system where only those that can afford it can have medical treatment.
Nobody is denied essential medical care, anyone in this country can walk in and recieve medical care, but will be held responsible for the bill.
And no-one is forcing you to work, you have the choise of being unemployed in which case you don`t pay anything...
But realistically, who really minds paying for their own security or future welfare[?]

Those that excersized their choice not to work, that's who.

[whabang]

T_Bone wrote:

blobrana wrote:
@iamaboringperson

In Britain EVERYONE is entitled to free medical treatment , its just how its done here.
We (well most) pay taxes, and we WANT to pay, to keep it that way.
No one should be FORCED to work for anybody else.
When you pay those taxes, you are being forced to work for someone else. You don't have the option of not paying for the medical care of others.
Well, you also pay for defence, you pay for police and firemen, roads, and public transports etc.

[blobrana]

@T_Bone

1) well technically yes...(but why do ppl get a job anyway, if being unemployed has so many benefits?)
2) Er, no one is denied in Britain either..Its that we don`t pay afterwards, we pay in advance, through taxes...(which country are you talking about anyway.)
3) yes i agree ;)

[T_Bone]

whabang wrote:

Well, you also pay for defence, you pay for police and firemen, roads, and public transports etc.

Sure, but these things arn't redistribution of wealth, they are infrastructure services that everyone benefits from equally.

[blobrana]

So you would give the Aborigines a redistribution of the the countries wealth?

[T_Bone]

blobrana wrote:
So you would give the Aborigines a redistribution of the the countries wealth?

I wouldn't give them anything more than the non-aborigines are entitled to, and I'd expect them to pay the same taxes as well.

[blobrana]

Well, that`s basically how this thread started...

Looks like there is underlying tension in NewSouthWales that probably stems from that point of view.

(and to an extent i would agree). The free-hand outs have certainly added to the drink and drug problems.
(remember were talking about only slightly over 2% of the population who are aboriginal)

From a native point of view , it would appear that they are entitled to compensation for how they were (or are) treated in the past.
(it is well documented that station owners went hunting for kangaroo and Aborigines in the out-back, as a social event, only thirty years ago).
[And i suppose that it would be like not paying your rent, because you were stronger than the landlord...]

Either way, they have to solve this.
And a bit of understanding will help.

(Oh, and can someone remove the KKK flag off this thread?)

[sumner7]

If this is a thread about racist flags, how could anyone forget this one...

IMAGE REMOVED

Yes... the SWASTIKA. The worst of them all.

Wouldn't want to get banned now, would we?

[blobrana]

No, it`s not...

But, nice try!
(the original SWASTIKA was ,as you know, reversed, and was an ancient symbol of strength and honour)




[does anybody read the threads?]

[Cyberus]

blobrana wrote:
[does anybody read the threads?]

Yes, and I don't really understand the relevance of Nazi flags and KKK flags. TBH, unless used in any kind of justifiable context, they are likely to be taken as offensive.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

Cyberus wrote:

blobrana wrote:
[does anybody read the threads?]

Yes, and I don't really understand the relevance of Nazi flags and KKK flags. TBH, unless used in any kind of justifiable context, they are likely to be taken as offensive.Indeed, utterly offensive. It's abusing the freedom of speech. And according to me it's offending the posting guidelines.
That Aboriginal flag is noway comparable with the KKK flag because the KKK flag wants people dead. Neither do I feel to discuss this.

:-x

[blobrana]

Yea, the Aboriginal flag is noway comparable because

"In view of its increasing importance in Australian society, the Government initiated steps in 1994 to give the flag legal recognition. After a period of public consultation, the Government made its own decision in July 1995 that the flag should be proclaimed a "Flag of Australia" under section 5 of the Flags Act 1953. The flag was so proclaimed by the Governor General of Australia, William Hayden, on 14 July 1995. "

[This means it`s a legal national flag for all australians.]


But if any one feels rightly that it incites racial hatred then i will apologise and remove it.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

Thank you for removing that Sumner7. I appreciate that.

[sumner7]

No problem. I apologise for any offence caused. :-)

[Speelgoedmannetje]

sumner7 wrote:
No problem. I apologise for any offence caused. :-)It's ok, the person who made the REAL offence was Iama. I do not know how I have to interpret it from him.

[KennyR]

Before imaboringperson starts to complain about "bleeding heart socialist wankers", he needs to live in one of the aboriginal areas. High crime, high alcoholism, little hope. And the police don't seem to be too fond of aborigines, if you catch my drift. Certainly racial tensions are extremely high, and there's no smoke without fire. The right wing are responsible for almost all of it, so iamaboringperson can go stick that up his biased ass.

It's the responsibility of every government to be aware of the well being of all its citizens - even the ones many white Australians wish hard didn't exist. And if that includes concentrating taxpayer's money in trying to get poor areas back on their feet, tough luck to the taxpayer. That's what happens when you steal someone else's country and brutally suppress their culture.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

KennyR wrote:
and there's no smoke without fire.I am very VERY against this idea.
But certainly there where's smoke there should be first looked at what it actually is and act appropriate to that.

[KennyR]

@Speelgoedmannetje

Well, look at it this way. If many people of the Netherlands looked at Frisians as ugly, stupid people who are crap at everything and only drink and steal all day, Frisians would soon be rioting, even if the government and majority of people knew that they weren't any of these things. But after some decades of racial tension, it would be hard to convince even the majority that Frisians weren't just trouble starters who used up taxpayer's money to live easy lives and riot when they didn't get their money.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

KennyR wrote:
@Speelgoedmannetje

Well, look at it this way. If many people of the Netherlands looked at Frisians as ugly, stupid people who are crap at everything and only drink and steal all day, Frisians would soon be rioting, even if the government and majority of people knew that they weren't any of these things. But after some decades of racial tension, it would be hard to convince even the majority that Frisians weren't just trouble starters who used up taxpayer's money to live easy lives and riot when they didn't get their money.Frisians ARE ugly, stupid people :lol: ;-) (me is 3/4 Frisian)
But the other thing is that Frisians KNOW how to handle such
It's a very independend people.
Aboriginals, due to their completely different culture, on the other hand, do not know how to handle such. They SHOULD be helped with that.

Leaver dea as sleaf! (rather dead than slave)

[blobrana]

<quote>
They SHOULD be helped with that
</quote>

`They` meaning the `white` ppl should be educated to understand the social circumstances, or the `aborigines` should be educated on how to co-exist their culture.

or both?

It`s a bit like having a country inside another country, i think. And there are bound to be tensions, with each successive generations..

But it is possible, take a look at Scotland and england, after nearly 400 years, almost all the animosity is gone...
:-)

[Speelgoedmannetje]

Both of course.
As I say, these cultural differences are very very deeply rooted, and they Aboriginals are the weakest part in this so I think it's up to the white to take initiative.
But it won't succeed if there's no initiative from the Aboriginal side. They have to organise themselves (is there actually already such a movement?).
Yes, a country in a country is a good option.

But about that Scotland and England, Or Dutch and Frisian, is completely different because they've always been neighbours.

[blobrana]

Yes, the england and scotland situation is nothing like the situation in Australia...
Said in a half hearted jest...(although originally, the scots received the `benefits` of an occupied english army, and were murdered, tortured and deported (to australia) from their rightful lands...but that another story, and OT)

Yea there are such organisations,
The aboriginal legal rights movement
and the `government` aboriginal reconciliation movement...
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/special/rsjproject/rsjlibrary/depts/historical/3.html

And there must be loads of others...all striving for the same thing...

[Speelgoedmannetje]

adz wrote:
I'm sure the country would still be stuck in the stone age.
I think the Aboriginals would be probably better off.

[T_Bone]

KennyR wrote:
The right wing are responsible for almost all of it, so iamaboringperson can go stick that up his biased ass.

Why is it that whenever people screw up their own lives, it's the Republicans fault they did it?

[Speelgoedmannetje]

T_Bone wrote:

Why is it that whenever people screw up their own lives, it's the Republicans fault they did it?They can't help they screwed up their own life because most of them can't handle western life (yet). The government (I dunno whether it is Republican or not) should help I think. In terms of information and good (appropriate) education.

[KennyR]

T_Bone wrote:
Why is it that whenever people screw up their own lives, it's the Republicans fault they did it?

Who said anything about Republicans?

Republicans are conservatives, a kind of people who are generally very intolerant of ways of life that don't suit their own, usually a family-centric, monogamous, stationary, get-a-job-and-live-with-it-20-years - in other words, very old western way of life.

But I think the problem in Australia has more to do with nationalists and racists than it does with conservatives. Nationalists are right wing and racists are usually described as extreme right.

[T_Bone]

KennyR wrote:
T_Bone wrote:
Why is it that whenever people screw up their own lives, it's the Republicans fault they did it?

Who said anything about Republicans?
"Right Wing"?

Republicans are conservatives, a kind of people who are generally very intolerant of ways of life that don't suit their own, usually a family-centric, monogamous, stationary, get-a-job-and-live-with-it-20-years - in other words, very old western way of life.
You watch too many "Family Ties" reruns! :lol:

But I think the problem in Australia has more to do with nationalists and racists than it does with conservatives. Nationalists are right wing and racists are usually described as extreme right.
Where do you get the idea that racism can be explained in terms of left and right?

[KennyR]

Where do you get the idea that racism can be explained in terms of left and right?

Can you name any left-wing, socialist, communist, neo-communist, anarchic, anarcho-syndicalist, syndicalist, liberal, keynsian, labour or generally pinky or red parties that have racism or monoculturalism as one of their policies?

(And your republicrats don't count! :-P)

The closest the left get to racism is extreme political correctness. And most people here wouldn't call your "Liberals" left!

Ok, blaming the right wing for all racism that ever happened ever is a gross over-simplification, but if you're in a minority, you know not to vote for a right-wing party. Except libertarians that is.

[T_Bone]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
They can't help they screwed up their own life because most of them can't handle western life (yet).
Oh I don't believe that at all. How many freaking generations does it take? People can't live in the society they were born into, because of the expierences of their ancestors? I think that's a bunch of crap.

If the above were true... then disadvantaged people should have their children taken away from them and they should be raised by someone else. I don't agree with this, because I don't agree with the above.

[vortexau]

Article on demolition work carried out in Redfern lifted from smh.com.au (http://sydney.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=1038)
Workers from the Aboriginal-owned construction company Kevin Bailey Holdings began by demolishing the laundries of the nine Louis Street homes. The terraces, which have been vacant for the past three to 12 months, have lately become illegal shooting galleries for heroin users.

Yesterday, the junkies and dismayed locals looked on from behind wire fences as graffiti-strewn walls were torn down.

The properties are owned by the Aboriginal Housing Company, which intends to grass over the area while plans for redeveloping the site are finalised.
RAWW - the young's own site (http://www.koori.usyd.edu.au/raww/koorinproud/whatis.html)

The death of “TJ” Hickey—the social and economic circumstances- WORLD SOCIALISTS (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/feb2004/thom-f17.shtml)

The Settlement Neighbourhood Centre
Community Centre offering programs mainly for children and young people from Aboriginal families on the Block, Redfern. (http://www.shopfront.uts.edu.au/projects/available/client179.html)

Urban Dreamers - THE BLOCK (http://www.isis.aust.com/urbandreamers/THEBLOCK.htm)

NSW Reconciliation Council Inc- REDFERN (http://www.nswrecon.com/redfern/index1.html)
Now as to what happened: Seventeen y. o. Hickey fell from his bicycle at speed, suffering fatal injuries on a steel-picket fence. His contemporaries claimed that he was being chased by Police.

Hickey had a record of petty theft and car stealing. A survailance video, from a convenience store, showed him being ejected because he was banned because of shoplifting. He re-entered and attempted to set fire to the store interior.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

hm T-Bone, this all is true what Kenny says. Maybe it's different in the US, but here, it's that way.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

T_Bone wrote:
If the above were true... then disadvantaged people should have their children taken away from them and they should be raised by someone else.
eh, uhm, just go and gonna see the movie "Rabbit Proof Fence"

And what's wrong with educating them, what it takes and how and what in Western society?

I think you are really really underestimating the situation. I mean, that you are underestimating the aspect 'culture'. It's not just something that ancestors did in times long ago.

[vortexau]

Brutal thief was bigger police prey than 'TJ' - Courier-Mail (http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,8733704%255E953,00.html)
POLICE had very good reason to be patrolling the streets of the troubled Sydney suburb of Redfern the day Thomas "T J" Hickey was impaled on the spikes of a metal fence.
http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,1658,322366,00.jpg
DAYLIGHT robbery ... a thief snatches a handbag from a woman outside Redfern Railway Station early last Saturday, sparking a police presence in the inner Sydney suburb which led to the death of Thomas 'TJ' Hickey.

[T_Bone]

KennyR wrote:
Can you name any left-wing, socialist, communist, neo-communist, anarchic, anarcho-syndicalist, syndicalist, liberal, keynsian, labour or generally pinky or red parties that have racism or monoculturalism as one of their policies?
Socialism carried the racism movement since it's inception.
http://tinyurl.com/2ndg6
Ok, blaming the right wing for all racism that ever happened ever is a gross over-simplification, but if you're in a minority, you know not to vote for a right-wing party. Except libertarians that is.
Unless you're hoping to get Lincoln elected so he can free the slaves :roll:

[vortexau]

http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,1658,321576,00.jpg
The Story (http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,8705064%255E952,00.html)from the 17th. (Courier-Mail)
FACE-OFF ... riot police dodge fireworks and molotov cocktails as they confront Redfern rioters in the troubled Sydney suburb. Picture: Craig Greenhill.
Angry youths had pelted police with firebombs, bottles and rocks in several hours of bloody confrontation outside Redfern train station on Sunday night.

A police officer was knocked senseless, others broke limbs and several were cut during the wild brawl sparked by the weekend death of 17-year-old Aboriginal, Thomas Hickey.

The teen was impaled on a fence after falling off his bike on Saturday and an angry Aboriginal community claimed police had been chasing him.

Police chiefs and NSW Premier Bob Carr denied the claim and said police had tried to save the boy's life.

The teenager's mother, Gail Hickey, said her son's friends became "wild" after his death and began throwing things at police.

She claimed police had spent yesterday "driving around . . . intimidating us".

"My son's friends got wild and that, so they started throwing things at them. They (police) deserve all they get," she told ABC radio.

"I was terrified and that, wild and that. I wanted to go to the police station and smash the police station up. That's how wild I was.
Police are expected to use security footage to arrest leaders of Sunday night's attack but an uneasy calm hung over the area yesterday.

Dozens of locals gathered near the train station, some shouting abuse at police on guard.

The station was fire damaged and trains had to be diverted during the riot.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

@Vortexeau
seems to be a true collision of cultures.

but you ain't saying what's REALLY the cause of it all.

[T_Bone]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
And what's wrong with educating them, what it takes and how and what in Western society?
Who say's there's something wrong with educating them? What's keeping them from becoming educated? How much education does it take to "get along in western society" considering American Public-High School Dropouts are capable of it?

I think you are really really underestimating the situation. I mean, that you are underestimating the aspect 'culture'. It's not just something that ancestors did in times long ago.
Culture Smulture. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you value a culture that (you say) holds you back, you can't blame others for being held back. I don't think "culture" has anything to do with it. In fact I'd be offended if someone tried blaming my failures on my culture... that starts to sound like racism.

[T_Bone]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
@Vortexeau
seems to be a true collision of cultures.


Yes, the ancient aborigonie tradition of rioting and malatov coctails. I'm sure this tradition goes way back, and has passed down generation after generation from when they used to use malatov cocktails to hunt dingo's and kangaroo. :roll:

[blobrana]

@vortexau
Hum, very similar to the toxteth and brixton riots here a few years back...
Both started by police insensitivity - (enquiry findings)

They were portrayed as race riots originally by the media until it was found out that it was a mixed race mob venting their anger at the `hostile` police presence and `stop and search laws` that were being abuused...
An enquiry later on blamed the police tactics, and things were quickly changed... we now have a slightly more understanding police officer and `community policing` (police going around in ones and twos - and not in van loads of 12)..well there have been no riots anyway...

[Speelgoedmannetje]

T_Bone wrote:

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
@Vortexeau
seems to be a true collision of cultures.


Yes, the ancient aborigonie tradition of rioting and malatov coctails. I'm sure this tradition goes way back, and has passed down generation after generation from when they used to use malatov cocktails to hunt dingo's and kangaroo. :roll: As I said earlier, culture isn't just something people do, it's far far more complex. Maybe this is a reaction of the Aborigine culture to several aspects of Western culture (racism?)

[blobrana]

@T_Bone

Yea, seem like there are always ppl claiming that they were there first, and invaders/occupier/developers/settlers/explores-exploiters doing their stuff...

When will ppl realise we live on a small planet and that we have to get along... things are tough enough as they already are.






<Go on tell me ...> :-)


And no sooner had i spoke , i came across the latest image from the opportunity martian rover:

http://schwinger.harvard.edu/~motl/mars_spiritcolor.jpg


AAAgH!

[T_Bone]

:lol:

[Speelgoedmannetje]

:roflmao:

[iamaboringperson]

In Britain EVERYONE is entitled to free medical treatment , its just how its done here.Just how it's done there...

And sir, what is 'free' medical treatment?

We (well most) pay taxes, and we WANT to pay, to keep it that way.I pay, because of the legal consequences of not doing so. The fact is that the government waste most of the tax money.

No one should be FORCED to work for anybody else.
You should be free to do nothing.... ;)And so, it basically comes down to "work for us, or don't work at all", which is essentialy slavery, except the slaves have the choice of sitting on their asses! Great!

(I suggest you read a little article called "It's my life" (http://www.aynrand.org/medialink/mylife.shtml) I also sugest that you read this article (http://www.prodos.com/transcript/scottmcconnell1.html), and i don't care for your reply. Just read)

Is that aboriginal flag racist?What do you think it represents?

It`s meant for the whole of australia according to the international flag committee, and it includes All the people.No, it's the Aboriginal flag. This (http://home.vicnet.net.au/~rasigsau/images/australian_flag.gif) is the flag of Australia.

[iamaboringperson]

But that `somebody else` is societyNo, it's another person (or people).


I just prefer a society that treats people without prejudice or favouritism. :-D As do I sunnyJim! As do I! :-D

But realistically, who really minds paying for their own security or future welfare.Nobody. Just so long as nobody is holding a gun to their back.

[iamaboringperson]

From a native point of view , it would appear that they are entitled to compensation for how they were (or are) treated in the past.How do you come to that conclusion??

:lol: I mean, if a person is DEAD, how can you compensate them for what you did? (assuming the killer is still alive after more than 200 years, which I seriously doubt :lol: )

(Oh, and can someone remove the KKK flag off this thread?)What's your problem? Don't like a racist flag?
(Or it seems that more that it's more likely you support one racist flag over another - I like neither)

[iamaboringperson]

But if any one feels rightly that it incites racial hatred then i will apologise and remove it.It's not exactly hatred, but it does represent ONE particular 'race' - Like what the NAZI's wanted.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

iamaboringperson wrote:
(Oh, and can someone remove the KKK flag off this thread?)What's your problem? Don't like a racist flag?
(Or it seems that more that it's more likely you support one racist flag over another - I like neither)The Aboriginal flag is not (yet? :nervous:) a dedicated racist flag but the KKK flag is that OBVIOUSLY, as well as the Swastika.

I didn't know how to interpret it but I sincerely do not hope you see people of other races as being inferior as the KKK does.

[KennyR]

T_Bone wrote:
Socialism carried the racism movement since it's inception. (Gives url)

W00t?? It has nothing to do with race. Nothing whatsoever.

From the article:

Socialism is the theory of evolution applied to politics and government.

Wrong. Nazism is the theory of evolution applied to politics and goverment. If anything, socialism is a denial of evolution and mankind's self-interest in government, the total opposite!

The European socialists, under Hitler and Stalin, would effect the full manifestation of evolution in practice.

Haha, I see the problem now. The author has blundered into the oldest mistake of the book - thinking "National Socialists" were socialists. They weren't - Hitler's economics might have been keynsian, but obvious Hitler didn't believe in equality in any sense, did he??

All in all, that link is one of those "I don't know what socialism is, but it's evil anyway!" scare articles. Very poor quality. The author should learn about what socialism is before writing such uninformed crap. If socialism carries any danger to liberty, it certainly doesn't do it through eugenics and racial purity.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

Wrong. Nazism is the theory of evolution applied to politics and goverment. If anything, socialism is a denial of evolution and mankind's self-interest in government, the total opposite!

wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong
Why are people abusing the term 'evolution' continuously. You have to have very much degrees to fully understand the complex nature of evolution. I'm a bit out of words now, so I can't give you an example to let you see how complex it can be.

[iamaboringperson]

he needs to live in one of the aboriginal areas. High crime, high alcoholism, little hope.Yep, done that, saw the lot. Say... have you lived near a place like that? Where are you from, Bairnsdale?

And the police don't seem to be too fond of aborigines, if you catch my drift.What about the police who are Aboriginal?
And no, I don't catch your 'drift' - what are you trying to say?
That the police like to try and catch car theives?

The right wing are responsible for almost all of it, so iamaboringperson can go stick that up his biased ass.No. I'll show you what you can stick up your biassed ass, you ignorant moron!
Come and live here before writing one more word on this thread. See what EVERY Australian has posted here so far.

Like I said ... I hate ignorant forreigners BS'ing about what should happen here, and what should be done about it.
The fact is THEY KNOW NOTHING.


It's the responsibility of every government to be aware of the well being of all its citizens Oh, they do that AND MORE. Didn't you follow the link?

even the ones many white Australians wish hard didn't exist.The fact is that not many Australians are actually racist.

That's what happens when you steal someone else's country and brutally suppress their culture.:lol:



Well if that 'culture' that has been 'butally suppressed' includes things such as the slicing of a boys penis all the way down the underside ... well, I'm glad they did!

I'm also glad that the western culture of democracy and a fair legal system was also put into place.

The fact is that brittish people came here, set up a pretty damn decent, ordered, and logical society, eventually turned this place into a democratic country, and eventually let people from anywhere in the world immigrate - so as to flee other crappy oppressive cultures. That sir, is what Australia is all about.

And quite frankly, if some ignoramous European, or UK resident, thinks we should change back to the old #OOPS# ways that people lived here, and that we should all(all 20M of us) move out to only God knows what country, then I can only say "over my dead body!" - Violence awaits you!



Like I wrote before it #OOPS#s me when people who have never been here try and tell us how we should run this society.
It #OOPS#s me even more when they do so, while asking us "have you ever lived in one of the 'Aboriginal areas'"

Sir, you are an ignoramous.

[iamaboringperson]

But it is possible, take a look at Scotland and england, after nearly 400 years, almost all the animosity is gone...Same here dude(except 200 years).

The problems are only with a small number of the population - and I'm talking <%2. And the problems here aren't all with Aboriginal people.

[iamaboringperson]

Yea there are such organisations,
The aboriginal legal rights movement
and the `government` aboriginal reconciliation movement...
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/special/rsjproject/rsjlibrary/depts/historical/3.html

And there must be loads of others...all striving for the same thing...Surely you visited my link?

So you like racist policies, do you?

[KennyR]

@Speel

Wrong. Nazism is the theory of evolution applied to politics and goverment. If anything, socialism is a denial of evolution and mankind's self-interest in government, the total opposite!

wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong
Why are people abusing the term 'evolution' continuously. You have to have very much degrees to fully understand the complex nature of evolution

In this case, survival of the strongest through any means necessary is the only consideration. Nazis believed in "Evolution of nations" which gave them the right to wage war. If they were strong, they would win - if not, they would lose. Morality took no part in it. And guess what: they lost.

[iamaboringperson]

Republicans are conservatives, a kind of people who are generally very intolerant of ways of life that don't suit their own,Here we go...
Hey, I can think of another(well, at least one) group who can't tollerate "ways of life that don't suit their own"
But of course, this group uses force to get their way.

But I think the problem in Australia has more to do with nationalists and racists than it does with conservatives.Yeah, but would you mind telling us HOW you came to that conclusion?

Nationalists are right wing:roll:

[iamaboringperson]

Ok, blaming the right wing for all racism that ever happened ever is a gross over-simplification, but if you're in a minority, you know not to vote for a right-wing party.How do you come up with this crap?

The fact is that conservatives are no more likely to be racist than lefties.

FACT.

I would love to know where you get your ideas from, kenny.

[iamaboringperson]

@votexau

It's nice to see more of us well informed Australians joinging the thread! :-D (hope to see more)

I still doubt that the ignorant nut-cases from overseas would be persuaded by any of us, though. :-(

[KennyR]

iamaboringperson wrote:
What about the police who are Aboriginal?
And no, I don't catch your 'drift' - what are you trying to say?
That the police like to try and catch car theives?

That the police are heavy handed and unnecessarily brutal, that's what I'm saying. You really don't have a handle on anything that isn't said out straight, do you?

Like I said ... I hate ignorant forreigners BS'ing about what should happen here, and what should be done about it.
The fact is THEY KNOW NOTHING.

Oh really? And you think we didn't have the same problems with the Irish? Or the Highlanders? Or the thousands of other cultures the British Empire conquered and repressed?

You know your problem, is that you think only you could possibly understand this problem because you're Australian. You can't understand it. And you know why? You're not aborigine.

The fact is that brittish people came here, set up a pretty damn decent, ordered, and logical society, eventually turned this place into a democratic country, and eventually let people from anywhere in the world immigrate - so as to flee other crappy oppressive cultures. That sir, is what Australia is all about.

And butchered the locals, destroyed their culture, and tried to force the survivors to be lower class citizens. We might have to do it again, if you're representational of the population.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

@KennyR
It wasn't really morality that was their downfall, it was their attitude, making EVERYONE an enemy, that was their downfall.

anyway, even if they'd won both the USSR and the US+Gemenebest, it would be a very very big empire wich would have collapsed in no-time. Like every supreme nation.

but still it is far more complex than that, but I've forgotten an example wich I had. :-(

[KennyR]

speelgoedmannetje wrote:
It wasn't really morality that was their downfall, it was their attitude, making EVERYONE an enemy, that was their downfall.

Throwing away morality does make everyone your enemy.

[iamaboringperson]

blobrana wrote:
@vortexau
Hum, very similar to the toxteth and brixton riots here a few years back...
Both started by police insensitivity - (enquiry findings)

They were portrayed as race riots originally by the media until it was found out that it was a mixed race mob venting their anger at the `hostile` police presence and `stop and search laws` that were being abuused...
An enquiry later on blamed the police tactics, and things were quickly changed... we now have a slightly more understanding police officer and `community policing` (police going around in ones and twos - and not in van loads of 12)..well there have been no riots anyway...

Hey, do you want to know want to know where there are alot of riots? The UK! But these riots have nothing to do with 'race' but 'soccer teams'!

Yes sir, it looks as though the 'soccer riots' in the UK (or any rioting, for that matter) are far more common than any kind of riots in Australia.

In fact, riots of any kind are rare in Australia. VERY VERY VERY RARE!

[iamaboringperson]

That the police are heavy handed and unnecessarily brutal, that's what I'm saying. You really don't have a handle on anything that isn't said out straight, do you?Heavy handed? In what example?
Please tell us!

And where does _race_ come into this?


You know your problem, is that you think only you could possibly understand this problem because you're Australian. You can't understand it. And you know why? You're not aborigine.Thanks for your insight.
So I take it that if I had:
Black skin
Black hair
Brown eyes
I would understand the problems better

What racist BS.

[KennyR]

Heavy handed? In what example?
Please tell us!

And where does _race_ come into this?

Do you really think people riot if a petty criminal is hurt running away from police?? Not even race is enough to fire people up like this in one event. This isn't one issue, this has obviously been going on for a long time.

Thanks for your insight.
So I take it that if I had:
Black skin
Black hair
Brown eyes
I would understand the problems better

What racist BS.

Stop being such an arse. Please.

I'm saying you would understand the problem if you understood the grievances of the people involved. Since you aren't even willing to look into the possibility of aggressive policing, I guess you don't.

[blobrana]

If the riots are very rare, then that is good... The ppl must be at least integrating together...

So my initial feelings about society improving were correct..

And can i just state that my intentions are not to upset anybody here, i may want to provoke a response just to wake ppl up or perhaps point out something said was inaccurate or false (1+1=3).
Er, so when i posted the aboriginal flag it was mearly to point out that it was not widely know about ,and really cool looking...(and nothing else)
We scots may have a tendency to support the `underdog` , but
it was not intended as an `attack` on the white australians. Er, i like all australians, i think you have one of the planets nicest places to live in, and generally open minded bunch of ppl.
So i naturally assumed , from what i`ve read, that it was a truly multi cultural flag ,
But if you think that the australian legal system is wrong,
Or disagree with the general consensus, and think that the flag is only for the Aborigines, then that`s up to you.
<or was i mistaken?>
<your the one living there, not me>

You still live in a democratic country. i assumed you believe in democracy. You are allowed to protest, and vote against it...


one step at a time , i think...

[iamaboringperson]

Okay, so we've had iamaboringperson, adz, and votexau, writing about what they have observed here, and about what they know about this country.

I would love to see what the Bodies and others from here have to say.

We've also had some ignorant socialist #OOPS#s from UK and Europe, who obviously know nothing about what goes on here, giving their views(which come accross as very racist) with very flawed logic.

And one from the US, with good logic, and crikey! have you been to Australia T_Bone? ;-)

Oh, and BTW, I'm not sure about this, but I don't think vortexau is exactly conservative. But he is a man who seems to like the TRUTH. and even though he has presented it, there are still those who's racist and ignorant views havn't changed in the slightest. Which seems to suggest that their views have nothing to do with reality, but just their political views - i.e. they belive not in treating everybody equally.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

Funny, that one's spell thruth with capitals. Must be because they're so unsure.

[iamaboringperson]

Do you really think people riot if a petty criminal is hurt running away from police?? No, I don't believe the riots have anything to do with race.
(or being poor, for that matter)

this has obviously been going on for a long time.So you 'obviously' know our history, then? :-x




Stop being such an arse. Please.Strange, that's what you said to meers, when he made a perfectly good point, and you couldn't answer.

I'm saying you would understand the problem if you understood the grievances of the people involved.Hey, I'm poor, I live in a fairly 'poor area', what's the problem?

Since you aren't even willing to look into the possibility of aggressive policing, I guess you don't.What agreesive policing? In this country? Puleeze! :roll:

[iamaboringperson]

So i naturally assumed , from what i`ve read, that it was a truly multi cultural flag ,This is a truly "multi cultural flag":
http://www.webcom.com/~alauck/aus/images/au-flag1.gif

:-)

Well, more accurately, it doesn't represent "multi-culturalism", it represents one culture that accepts the best of all (or many)cultures, and doesn't allow the oppressive kinds of cultures, such as Aboriginals slicing a boys penis using a blunt stone, or 'muslims' who think it's okay to rape women. We don't want that.

That's what this place is all about.


You still live in a democratic country. i assumed you believe in democracy. You are allowed to protest, and vote against it...
Which is exactly what people have the right to do.
They have the right to vote, the right to protest, and the right of freedom of speech.

They don't have the right to steal, initiate force on others, or (in this case) go around and smash other peoples windows.

We don't allow that.

If anybody is cought smashing MY windows (and I don't care what color their skin, eyes, or hair is), I'll break their F***ing neck! :)

[KennyR]

iamaboringperson wrote:
No, I don't believe the riots have anything to do with race.
(or being poor, for that matter)

If they're not about race, what are they about? The local supermarket ran out of hotdogs or something? :lol:

Strange, that's what you said to meers, when he made a perfectly good point, and you couldn't answer.

I also do it with you when you nitpick when you can't argue with me any other way and I'm forced to break it down into simple phrases you can't nitpick and spell it out for you.

Hey, I'm poor, I live in a fairly 'poor area', what's the problem?

The problem is the police may not look at you the same, even if you were a petty criminal. If they did especially pick on you for any reason, I'm sure you'd be angry.

What agreesive policing? In this country? Puleeze!

This (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA120031997?open&of=ENG-AUS) agressive policing?

[iamaboringperson]

If they're not about race, what are they about? The local supermarket ran out of hotdogs or something? Possibly.
What are the riots in the UK about?
What are the riots anywhere about?

The fact is, there is absolutely no neet to riot.

If they did especially pick on you for any reason, I'm sure you'd be angry.I'm sure.
This agressive policing?Yes, that's agreesive.

But that happens to people with white skin, too! (And Asians... and other black people.... etcetera... etcetera... etcetera....)

[Speelgoedmannetje]

iamaboringperson wrote:
This agressive policing?Yes, that's agreesive.

But that happens to people with white skin, too! (And Asians... and other black people.... etcetera... etcetera... etcetera....)That's no excuse to discriminate. Other's '****' is no soap for your hands. (you may lend it again Bloodline)

[Bodie]

iamaboringperson wrote:

I would love to see what the Bodies and others from here have to say.




One of us is here. :D

Actually, my brother lived in Redfern for 5 years. It really is a terrible suburb junkies every and high crime. Typically perpetrated by junkies and the aboriginies. To call it a hole is an understatement.

What really gives me the irrates is the notion that somehow Aboriginies are being discrimated and suppressed. I accept that this was the case in the past, but now? Ample opportunity is provided for Aboriginies to make something of their lives. Many simply don't choose too, preferring a life of booze and petrol sniffing.

Just an off remark here, I do find it interesting that the world is all of a sudden concerend about these riots yet have shown no interest in the high cases of rape and sexual abuse in aboriginal communities (the other Aussies will know what I'm talking about).

[iamaboringperson]

Many simply don't choose too, preferring a life of booze and petrol sniffing.Yeah... remindes me of the joke about the string for the jerry can! ;-) You know what I mean! ;-)


Just an off remark here, I do find it interesting that the world is all of a sudden concerend about these riots yet have shown no interest in the high cases of rape and sexual abuse in aboriginal communities (the other Aussies will know what I'm talking about). I know what you're talking about, and in many ways the country has been a #OOPS#hole for years.

Propaganda mate, propaganda!

And the ignorance shown by europeans(ESSPECIALY ON THIS THREAD) certainly doesn't help things.

[T_Bone]

KennyR wrote:
Haha, I see the problem now. The author has blundered into the oldest mistake of the book - thinking "National Socialists" were socialists. They weren't - Hitler's economics might have been keynsian, but obvious Hitler didn't believe in equality in any sense, did he??


That's the thing, Socialists DON'T believe people are equal, or they wouldn't base their whole system on wealth redistrobution to fix the problem they see, that people arn't equal.

The only difference between Hitler's Socialism was how he dealt with those he felt were inferior, but all socialism exists because socialists feel many are inferior and need socialism, that's their swan song, it's the whole premise of socialism, that people are inferior and have a need for it.

[T_Bone]

KennyR wrote:
Do you really think people riot if a petty criminal is hurt running away from police?? Not even race is enough to fire people up like this in one event.
Absolutely not, everyone knows rioters are absolutely clear headed people who have thought out their cause well, and arn't just rioting because they are hoodlums looking for a reason to cause havock! If people riot, it absolutely must be because they have a genuine grievance, such as losing a football game. :lol:

[blobrana]

Yea the football game riots are pretty bad, smashed windows etc, and usually fuelled by alcohol.
The reasons are mostly sectarian or tribal, and the ppl involved take on a `mob` mentality.
So even normal reasonable ppl can be caught up and behave in an unreasonable manner.
(a bit like posting here) ;)

And the ones in europe are fairly bad with deaths involved...
And they usually last no more than a few hours after a game.
The toxteth and brixton riots lasted 3 days with areas that the police couldn't`t go into. those were in 1982, a long time ago, and afterwards the police were kitted out with new riot gear and weapons, and the policing of such areas was not is aggressively carried out.

There have been no major urban riots since.


I don`t think we`ve solved anything really, not the root causes like poverty, but ppl here are a bit more understanding...There will be the occasional law that is passed that will rile up the populous, causing massive demonstrations, ans civil disobiedience...but they are not riots...

[Speelgoedmannetje]

So no-one comes up with an idea to solve this problem?
Makes me think you just want to be agressive against agressiveness.

And violence is yours. Period.

[T_Bone]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
So no-one comes up with an idea to solve this problem?
Makes me think you just want to be agressive against agressiveness.

And violence is yours. Period.

Before you can "Solve" a problem, you have to identify it.
What do you think the problem is?

[KennyR]

T_Bone wrote:
Absolutely not, everyone knows rioters are absolutely clear headed people who have thought out their cause well, and arn't just rioting because they are hoodlums looking for a reason to cause havock!

If you're thinking about anarchist riots and anti-war protest riots, they're a different bag. That's where people gather from all over just to start trouble.

Urban riots are a whole different phenomenon. Rarely there's anyone there who isn't from the area. There are two kinds of people there, inciters and followers. Inciters always exist. But in most places, they are simply ignored.

But if the populace believe that a great injustice has been done to them or is being done, they will listen to inciters. Then you have a riot. And when you have a riot, you can't just chalk it off to people just wanting to cause trouble and carry on the way you were. Well you can, but you'll just get another riot. And another. And another...

Riots are signs of civil discontent just like chest pains and shooting pain in the left arm are signs of heart problems. Ignore either, and you're in big trouble.

Oh, and Hitler would have had you shot for calling him a socialist. :-D He hated socialists, after all they opposed militarism, nihilism and nationalism, everything Nazis stand for.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

I think it's a combination of problems. The Aboriginal culture has been adapted to survive in their surroundings. The Western culture has been adapted to do more with commercial bussiness and other social activities.
And our culture knows for millenia alcohol. The Aboriginals do not. I think our culture has had severe difficulties too when alcohol was introduced.
And another thing, there wasn't really a mutual respect when the western people arrived in Australia. And guns vs. stones...

[iamaboringperson]

Absolutely not, everyone knows rioters are absolutely clear headed people who have thought out their cause well,:roflmao:

[T_Bone]

KennyR wrote:
Oh, and Hitler would have you shot for calling him a socialist. :-D He hated socialists, after all they opposed militarism, nihilism and nationalism, everything Nazis stand for.

http://jonjayray.tripod.com/hitler.html

There's no arguement that he ran a War Economy, but it was a socialist system.

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions."

-Adolph Hitler

[T_Bone]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
I think it's a combination of problems. The Aboriginal culture has been adapted to survive in their surroundings. The Western culture has been adapted to do more with commercial bussiness and other social activities.
And our culture knows for millenia alcohol. The Aboriginals do not. I think our culture has had severe difficulties too when alcohol was introduced.
And another thing, there wasn't really a mutual respect when the western people arrived in Australia. And guns vs. stones...

Why is it that whenever an indigenous people are discussed, they are talked about as if they had somehow been transported unwillingly in a time machine from the 1600's to 2004, and landed downtown wearing animal skin and weilding clubs, looking around at these strange and amazing creations of modern man?

These people are no different than anyone else in Austrailia. The way their culture is being framed is rediculous.

They drive cars, they play Counterstrike, and Half-life, they watch the simpsons, they eat cheeseburgers. They use microwaves, they watch porn, they use WindowsXP. They are normal people for crying out loud.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

T_Bone wrote:
They drive cars, they play Counterstrike, and Half-life, they watch the simpsons, they eat cheeseburgers. They use microwaves, they watch porn, they use WindowsXP. They are normal people for crying out loud.
That's surface. What you mention isn't everything about culture, culture is far far deeper rooted than that. And about that guns vs. stones, I was talking just only about the beginning, when the Aboriginals were being unable to resist the Wester agressor.

[T_Bone]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:

T_Bone wrote:
They drive cars, they play Counterstrike, and Half-life, they watch the simpsons, they eat cheeseburgers. They use microwaves, they watch porn, they use WindowsXP. They are normal people for crying out loud.
That's surface. What you mention isn't everything about culture, culture is far far deeper rooted than that.

No it's not. Culture is "here and now", you are confusing it with "Heritage"

[that_punk_guy]

@T_Bone

I honestly can't believe you're using Hitler quotes to back up your arguments. :-?

He was hardly a model for sanity and logic.

[iamaboringperson]

They drive cars, they play Counterstrike, and Half-life, they watch the simpsons, they eat cheeseburgers. They use microwaves, they watch porn, they use WindowsXP. They are normal people for crying out loud.True. But shshhh!!! Quiet, will ya? Do you want to be labeled as a hitler, or fascist??!??!?




;)

[Speelgoedmannetje]

@T-Bone

Read C.G. Jung's works.

-edit- btw. Iama stop trolling.

[Bodie_CI5]

@ moderators

I have just spent one hour (seriously) writing a post in this thread. It has disappeared. Why?

[sumner7]

that_punk_guy wrote:
@T_Bone

I honestly can't believe you're using Hitler quotes to back up your arguments. :-?

He was hardly a model for sanity and logic.

Yes, what a disgrace. :-(

BTW Punkie, when's my pic going to appear on faces of a.org???

[T_Bone]

that_punk_guy wrote:
@T_Bone

I honestly can't believe you're using Hitler quotes to back up your arguments. :-?

He was hardly a model for sanity and logic.

What are you talking about? I said Hitler was a socialist, so I quoted Hitler saying "We are socialists" to prove it.

[Bodie_CI5]

Bodie_CI5 wrote:
@ moderators

I have just spent one hour (seriously) writing a post in this thread. It has disappeared. Why?

Is there now a word limit for each post? Because mine was a HUGE post. PLEASE enlighten.

[that_punk_guy]

T_Bone wrote:
that_punk_guy wrote:
I honestly can't believe you're using Hitler quotes to back up your arguments. :-?

He was hardly a model for sanity and logic.
What are you talking about? I said Hitler was a socialist, so I quoted Hitler saying "We are socialists" to prove it.

Hitler said he was a socialist. He also said killing Jews seemed like a good laugh*, but for some reason people don't seem quite as eager to accept his word on that.

And my point was that you simply can't use Nazism as an example of a typical socialist belief system. Socialism might not by definition preclude racism, but I really don't think you can deny that in most cases, socialist parties are those most conflicted with racist parties.

(* Okay, no, he didn't say exactly that, before you get pedantic on my ass ;-))

[sumner7]

So Punkie, WHEN is my pic going to appear on faces of a.org?

[that_punk_guy]

sumner7 wrote:
So Punkie, when is my picgoing to appear on faces of a.org?

Hopefully later today :-)

[sumner7]

Cheers :-)

[T_Bone]

that_punk_guy wrote:
T_Bone wrote:
that_punk_guy wrote:
I honestly can't believe you're using Hitler quotes to back up your arguments. :-?

He was hardly a model for sanity and logic.
What are you talking about? I said Hitler was a socialist, so I quoted Hitler saying "We are socialists" to prove it.

Hitler said he was a socialist. He also said killing Jews seemed like a good laugh*, but for some reason people don't seem quite as eager to accept his word on that.

And my point was that you simply can't use Nazism as an example of a typical socialist belief system.

Who said it was typical?

Socialism might not by definition preclude racism, but I really don't think you can deny that in most cases, socialist parties are those most conflicted with racist parties.

Did you follow the whole thread? The Nazi's were supposedly Right Wing (according to some) "because they were racists. "

Now YOUR defense that Hitler wasn't a Socialist is because "The socialists don't necessarily preclude racism, but usually do?"

So you think Hitler should be labelled "right wing" pretty much because he was a racist, and you don't want him associated with the left, weather or not he was actually a leftist?

In doing so, you just want everyone to swallow the whole "right=racist, left=non racist" pill, right?

[T_Bone]

Bodie_CI5 wrote:

Bodie_CI5 wrote:
@ moderators
I have just spent one hour (seriously) writing a post in this thread. It has disappeared. Why?
Is there now a word limit for each post? Because mine was a HUGE post. PLEASE enlighten.
Happened to me once, it logged me out in the middle of a huge post wherin I concluded and won every single arguement I've ever had with FluffyMcDeath, ;-):lol: then it wouldn't post!

[Speelgoedmannetje]

I have to agree partially here with T-Bone

The USSR killed jews as well as the Nazis did.
But today left wing extremists act against racism, while right wing extremists DO racism.
But just right wing doesn't mean racism indeed.

[sumner7]

T_Bone wrote:

Bodie_CI5 wrote:

Bodie_CI5 wrote:
@ moderators
I have just spent one hour (seriously) writing a post in this thread. It has disappeared. Why?
Is there now a word limit for each post? Because mine was a HUGE post. PLEASE enlighten.
Happened to me once, it logged me out in the middle of a huge post wherin I concluded and won every single arguement I've ever had with FluffyMcDeath, ;-):lol: then it wouldn't post!

What a shame... :-(

[that_punk_guy]

T_Bone wrote:
So you think Hitler should be labelled "right wing" pretty much because he was a racist, and you don't want him associated with the left, weather or not he was actually a leftist?


Of course not, would you be happy to hear he was a republican? :-D


In doing so, you just want everyone to swallow the whole "right=racist, left=non racist" pill, right?


No.

Not right=racist, but racist=right, almost exclusively, which was Kenny's original statement, before he got all cocky. ;-)

[T_Bone]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
I have to agree partially here with T-Bone
The USSR killed jews as well as the Nazis did.
But today left wing extremists act against racism, while right wing extremists DO racism.
But just right wing doesn't mean racism indeed.

(/me flares nostrils and exhales cigarette smoke loudly through them)

How does the right wing "DO racism"???

[iamaboringperson]

Not right=racist, but racist=right, almost exclusively, which was Kenny's original statement, before he got all cocky. #OOPS#ing hell.

I don't know where you get this logic (for want of a better word).

But the fact is, guys, that righties are no more likely to have a racist attitude than lefties.

I'm not going to accept the propaganda, and if you can't back it up with FACTS, your message is not particually convincing.


GRRRR

[T_Bone]

iamaboringperson wrote:
Not right=racist, but racist=right, almost exclusively#OOPS#ing hell. GRRRR
:lol:
Doesn't that burn you up!

Here we are, representing the Right, saying the Aboriginals are normal people, while the ones representing the Left are claiming they "Arn't capable" of living in today's society, and *WE* are the racists?

[Speelgoedmannetje]

Okay, and these riots do not exist.

[odin]

T_Bone wrote:
Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
I have to agree partially here with T-Bone
The USSR killed jews as well as the Nazis did.
But today left wing extremists act against racism, while right wing extremists DO racism.
But just right wing doesn't mean racism indeed.
(/me flares nostrils and exhales cigarette smoke loudly through them)
How does the right wing "DO racism"???
Dude...he said right wing _extremists_. Not 'right wing'. :-)

[T_Bone]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Okay, and these riots do not exist.

Not because they are'nt capable of living in society, no. They are normal people, capable of being productive, just like you and me.

[T_Bone]

odin wrote:
How does the right wing "DO racism"???
Dude...he said right wing _extremists_. Not 'right wing'. :-)[/quote]
We're all extremists in the eyes of our political counterparts. :-)

[sumner7]

T_Bone wrote:

odin wrote:
How does the right wing "DO racism"???
Dude...he said right wing _extremists_. Not 'right wing'. :-)
We're all extremists in the eyes of our political counterparts. :-) [/quote]

Indeed we are :-D

[iamaboringperson]

Doesn't that burn you up!

Here we are, representing the Right, saying the Aboriginals are normal people, while the ones representing the Left are claiming they "Arn't capable" of living in today's society, and *WE* are the racists?*sigh*

I think that's their main plan. Write an absolute load of crap, then tell them they are morons for not agreeing.

Remindes me of a quote that fluff splurted out weeks ago: "If you can't convince them, confuse them"

And I guess that's what they are trying to do.

Use the most flawed logic, based on no facts at all, talk about some world that doesn't exist, stick a NOT gate on the output of every bit of logic you got - then, you'll send them 'insane'.

I think that what it is supposed to do, is somehow reinforce that they are right, and have been all along. They see how frustrated we get, we get grumpy, and they see that as proof that only they can be happy, and that the conservatives are all grumpy by nature, possibly because they havn't found socialism yet.

They want to make that fantasy more believable by trying their best to make it come true!

;-) Well, that's my latest theory on them, anyway!

[Speelgoedmannetje]

NO one is exactly like the other.
The talking, body language (looking in eyes or not), the cultural specific assumptions, it's all different, from person to person and especially culture to culture. And this may cause tension, and even unemployment (no one difficulties with interviews?).

There are whole studies dedicated to this.

I think there should be more awareness of this.

[T_Bone]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
NO one is exactly like the other.
The talking, body language (looking in eyes or not), the cultural specific assumptions, it's all different, from person to person and especially culture to culture. And this may cause tension, and even unemployment (no one difficulties with interviews?).

There are whole studies dedicated to this.

I think there should be more awareness of this.
You won't be satisfied untill you find something wrong with them, will you?

[Speelgoedmannetje]

T_Bone wrote:
You won't be satisfied untill you find something wrong with them, will you?Have I said that anything is wrong with them? Didn't think so.

I only said these Aboriginals are different in many aspects.

ppl should stop implying different=wrong

I've seen better replies from you T-Bone.

[T_Bone]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:

T_Bone wrote:
You won't be satisfied untill you find something wrong with them, will you?Have I said that anything is wrong with them? Didn't think so.

"Can they not cope with western society (with drugs/alcohol)?"

"It is too much of a 'coincidence' that a hell of a lot of the Aboriginals live in poverty."

"the Aboriginals do not really know how to join Western society."

"Aboriginals, due to their completely different culture, on the other hand, do not know how to handle such"

"and they Aboriginals are the weakest part in this so I think it's up to the white to take initiative."

"adz wrote:
I'm sure the country would still be stuck in the stone age.
your response:I think the Aboriginals would be probably better off."

"They can't help they screwed up their own life because most of them can't handle western life "

"And our culture knows for millenia alcohol. The Aboriginals do not."

this WHOLE THREAD you've been saying there's something wrong with them that's causing their predicament.

[that_punk_guy]

T_Bone wrote:
Here we are, representing the Right, saying the Aboriginals are normal people, while the ones representing the Left are claiming they "Arn't capable" of living in today's society, and *WE* are the racists?

I'm pretty sure no-one said they incapable hopeless simply because they were Aboriginal. That would be racism.

When did Political Correctness become so beloved to our righties? It's almost cute! :-P

[Speelgoedmannetje]

T_Bone wrote:

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:

T_Bone wrote:
You won't be satisfied untill you find something wrong with them, will you?Have I said that anything is wrong with them? Didn't think so.

"Can they not cope with western society (with drugs/alcohol)?"

"It is too much of a 'coincidence' that a hell of a lot of the Aboriginals live in poverty."

"the Aboriginals do not really know how to join Western society."

"Aboriginals, due to their completely different culture, on the other hand, do not know how to handle such"

"and they Aboriginals are the weakest part in this so I think it's up to the white to take initiative."

"adz wrote:
I'm sure the country would still be stuck in the stone age.
your response:I think the Aboriginals would be probably better off."

"They can't help they screwed up their own life because most of them can't handle western life "

"And our culture knows for millenia alcohol. The Aboriginals do not."

this WHOLE THREAD you've been saying there's something wrong with them that's causing their predicament.

I ain't saying there's something wrong with them. I am only saying that between Western <-> Aboriginal is something wrong.
Why else these riots?

[that_punk_guy]

iamaboringperson wrote:
Remindes me of a quote that fluff splurted out weeks ago: "If you can't convince them, confuse them"


Well it sure beats 'if you can't convince "them", insert several ':-x' smileys for effect and try to win the argument by showing your sheer fury!!'

:-D

[iamaboringperson]

I'm pretty sure no-one said they incapable hopeless simply because they were Aboriginal. That would be racism.It was implied all through the thread that this particular race were helpless, and needed other races to feed and cloth them etc.


Doesn't anyone visit my links??

[iamaboringperson]

Where do some people get the idea that two 'races' can't coexist in the same space?

Speaking of racism...

That's a NAZI attitude, for #OOPS#s sake!

[Speelgoedmannetje]

iamaboringperson wrote:
That's a NAZI attitude, for #OOPS#s sake!
Nazis consider other races inferior. I don't.
And mind your language.

[that_punk_guy]

iamaboringperson wrote:
I'm pretty sure no-one said they incapable hopeless simply because they were Aboriginal. That would be racism.It was implied all through the thread that this particular race were helpless, and needed other races to feed and cloth them etc.

Doesn't anyone visit my links??

Why, have Amiga.org members been posting elsewhere on the subject? I didn't necessarily agree with the idea in the first place, but I think you've blown it somewhat out of proportion, the racism thing is ludicrous.

[T_Bone]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:

this WHOLE THREAD you've been saying there's something wrong with them that's causing their predicament.

I ain't saying there's something wrong with them. I am only saying that between Western <-> Aboriginal is something wrong.

You are saying that they are less capable, as a people, of acclimating themselves to the SAME common society that BOTH the Aborigionals, and everyone else, are born into. You are also saying that white people should naturally be the ones who should be helping these people, because these people are the weak link, who would be better off living in the stone age than in the modern society they now live in.

These are all direct quotes.

Why else these riots?

Well, if I were an Aboriginal and I read what you thought about my people, I'd riot too. think how they must feel, with the very people who claim to be "helping" them, thinking of them in that way.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

T_Bone wrote:
You are saying that they are less capable, as a people, of acclimating themselves to the SAME common society that BOTH the Aborigionals, and everyone else, are born into. You are also saying that white people should naturally be the ones who should be helping these people, because these people are the weak link, who would be better off living in the stone age than in the modern society they now live in.
I think the West needs adept to aboriginal culture as well T_Bone.
And since the West brought the western culture to Australia.....
And since Australia has a government with a Western foundation.

What I want to say is that the government should play an active role to realise a mutual understanding.

btw, try to live in such an Aboriginal (or alike) society yourself, you'll notice.

[adz]

Hasn't this turned into a hot little potato, I must make time on the weekend to pop in from now on. I think I've already made my opinions on the subject clear, I just want to clarify something.

KennyR kindly pointed out that our Police force can be "heavy handed and unnecessarily brutal", are you speaking from personal experience or are you speaking from a couple of articles you have read? Well, yes, they can be a little rough, but they are barstards towards everyone, not just indiginous Australians, and unlike you, I am speaking from personal experience. Come to think of it, the majority of the Police down here are pretty open minded and approachable, so like everything, you have to take the bad with the good.

Anyway...from what I can see, the only thing that is discriminatory in Australia is its government and its spineless approach to handling minority groups. All this does is make the majority more resentful towards the minority because of their special treatment. I have no problem with indiginious Australians, but I do have a problem with them recieving special treatment, why can't I have a free house (despite my current financial situation), because I'm a non-indiginous Australian. Can't you all see that by reading the posts of the Australian members???

Besides, thats not what this thread is about, its about a riot that took place in an inner city suburb of Sydney, that was sparked by the death of a young indiginous boy who was was being chased by Police. If he'd done nothing wrong, why was he running? It was his own stupidity that caused his death, not the police.

[T_Bone]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:

T_Bone wrote:
You are saying that they are less capable, as a people, of acclimating themselves to the SAME common society that BOTH the Aborigionals, and everyone else, are born into. You are also saying that white people should naturally be the ones who should be helping these people, because these people are the weak link, who would be better off living in the stone age than in the modern society they now live in.
I think the West needs adept to aboriginal culture as well T_Bone.
And since the West brought the western culture to Australia.....
And since Australia has a government with a Western foundation.

What I want to say is that the government should play an active role to realise a mutual understanding.

btw, try to live in such an Aboriginal (or alike) society yourself, you'll notice.

Why should anyone have to "adapt" to anyone's culture? You are free to live in the outback sleeping under the stars if you so choose, or you are free to live in the city if you so choose. Stealing cars and shooting up heroin is not part of anyone's culture that will ever be "adapted" to.

Could you explain very specifically what aspect of the Aborigional culture that isn't being "understood"?

[Speelgoedmannetje]

T_Bone wrote:
Could you explain very specifically what aspect of the Aborigional culture that isn't being "understood"? Sure.

What I was thinking of is about their ways of communicating.
Body language, facial expression, attitude, all that sort of hidden aspects of culture and language.
These things are OFTEN wrong interpreted. It's a source of conflicts. And for making friends with your neighbours, to do an interview, to do teamwork, it's all making it very difficult.

I can say this out of experience. In our land, we got a hot discussion about approximately the same thing about Turkish and Morrocan immigrants.

[sumner7]

Why should anyone have to "adapt" to anyone's culture?

Exactly. Good point.

[T_Bone]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:

T_Bone wrote:
Could you explain very specifically what aspect of the Aborigional culture that isn't being "understood"? Sure.

What I was thinking of is about their ways of communicating.
Body language, facial expression, attitude, all that sort of hidden aspects of culture and language.

What about it though? There's more differences in body gestures within a specific culture than there are between two cultures.

I don't think these body gestures have one iota to do with any plight they may or may not have.


These things are OFTEN wrong interpreted. It's a source of conflicts. And for making friends with your neighbours, to do an interview, to do teamwork, it's all making it very difficult.

How? I've seen people pick their nose during a job interview and get hired. What could they be doing that's worse than that?
:lol:

[Speelgoedmannetje]

@T-Bone

Well, I think we're stuck in a disagreement here, due to different experiences.


I wonder, what are your thoughts about these riots then?

[T_Bone]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
@T-Bone

Well, I think we're stuck in a disagreement here, due to different experiences.


I wonder, what are your thoughts about these riots then?

People riot. The fact that they've rioted doesn't give their grievances any less or more credibility than if they hadn't rioted.

People riot for stupid reasons, like football games for crying out loud. :lol:

I doubt they were rioting because people misunderstand their body language and facial gestures! :roflmao:

[blobrana]

@sumner7
Perhaps it should be `embrace`...
I personally do not have an problem with any culture, it is a sign of good manners to be willing to accept the views of other ppl, (er, but this isn`t to say that one should become part of that culture, it is obviously important to hold onto one`s own identity.. ::): )









"If you do not adapt then you do not survive" - Darwin

[Speelgoedmannetje]

T_Bone wrote:

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
@T-Bone

Well, I think we're stuck in a disagreement here, due to different experiences.


I wonder, what are your thoughts about these riots then?

People riot. The fact that they've rioted doesn't give their grievances any less or more credibility than if they hadn't rioted.

People riot for stupid reasons, like football games for crying out loud. :lol:

I doubt they were rioting because people misunderstand their body language and facial gestures! :roflmao: Okay, it's me who's dumb and ignorant.... and discriminating:
Members of the Aboriginal community have held a public meeting in Eveleigh Street, Redfern, airing their grievances about their relations with the wider community.

About 300 people joined the meeting on 'the Block'. As police looked on, speakers railed against continuing racism in Australian society.

Pam Ingram told the crowd the Mr Hickey's death was nothing unusual.

"It's been going on for 217 years and it's time it stopped and it won't stop unless we do something about it, so how about we all ... stand up collectively," she said.
source (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1045812.htm)

I tried to be as neutral as possible.
Apparently that won't be appreciated.

[T_Bone]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Members of the Aboriginal community have held a public meeting in Eveleigh Street, Redfern, airing their grievances about their relations with the wider community.

About 300 people joined the meeting on 'the Block'. As police looked on, speakers railed against continuing racism in Australian society.

Pam Ingram told the crowd the Mr Hickey's death was nothing unusual.

"It's been going on for 217 years and it's time it stopped and it won't stop unless we do something about it, so how about we all ... stand up collectively," she said.
source (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1045812.htm)

I tried to be as neutral as possible.
Apparently that won't be appreciated.[/quote]

They are trying to point at this incident as an example of police brutality or racism, but in fact it has absolutely nothing to do with either of these. To me it sounds like an Aborigional 'Jesse Jackson' cause.

If they are truely suffering at the hands of racism, then why are they accepting goverment handouts in response to it? Everyone knows that inflames racism problems!

Another thing that certainly won't help discrimination is standing up for those who were rightly being persued for a crime. I'm sure even in the Aboriginal culture that stealing, and setting fire to others belongings wasn't accepted, so this is hardly a cultural issue either.

Also, that article you linked to is blaming the Aborigional community leaders for the violence, and is calling the police the victims, due to their "hands off" policy. I agree! You want the people to feel like they are the same as everyone else? Then treat them like everyone else, screw this "hands off" crap.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

If they are truely suffering at the hands of racism, then why are they accepting goverment handouts in response to it? Everyone knows that inflames racism problems!Well, as I said, that government handout should be education for both cultures

Another thing that certainly won't help discrimination is standing up for those who were rightly being persued for a crime. I think that is out of question.

I'm sure even in the Aboriginal culture that stealing, and setting fire to others belongings wasn't accepted, so this is hardly a cultural issue either.
Stealing is accepted by gypsy's. You'll be surprised how different cultures are about such things.

[T_Bone]

Stealing is accepted by gypsy's. You'll be surprised how different cultures are about such things.

!!!!!!!!!!

Nonsense! The Roma people have never viewed stealing as acceptable! (not since ancient times anyway!) You've let TV and radio define Roma culture :lol:

This is what I mean, you talk about other cultures as if they've travelled through time to the present day, when in reality, they've lived pretty much the same life we have.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

-edit-Nonsense! The Roma people have never viewed stealing as acceptable! (not since ancient times anyway!)
I was rather referring to the past to point out that stealing isn't universally being seen as something unacceptable.


T_Bone wrote:
This is what I mean, you talk about other cultures as if they've travelled through time to the present day, when in reality, they've lived pretty much the same life we have.

On the surface, that is:

http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2001/02/07/image270222l.jpg

[T_Bone]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
-edit-Nonsense! The Roma people have never viewed stealing as acceptable! (not since ancient times anyway!)
I was rather referring to the past to point out that stealing isn't universally being seen as something unacceptable.

Even when they were stealing, they saw it as unacceptable. It's written in the Kris documents. They were only seen as thieves because WE thought of them as thieves, mostly because they were poor, and we have romantic misconceptions about them that theatre and television likes to hold on to.

They arn't any different from us. Hell, if you search the internet you'll find nothing pisses the Romani off more than people who try to "understand their culture" and it even goes so far that when people ask the Romani about aspects about their culture, and the Romani try to set them straight about a misconception, that they are told that they are wrong about their own culture, because the books say differently!


T_Bone wrote:
This is what I mean, you talk about other cultures as if they've travelled through time to the present day, when in reality, they've lived pretty much the same life we have.

On the surface, that is.
[/quote]

All the way down to the core. Deep down. They are just like us. Your viewing them as different isn't the solution, it's the problem.

Throughout history, it's been proven that when you think about people differently than yourself, weather it's with good intentions or not, it pisses them off. They won't feel normal untill people stop looking at them and thinking, "Boy, they must have a really different culture than 'us'" when they arn't any different at all, and have spent their lives doing what we do, everyday.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

@T-Bone
Have you actually ever been to the Middle East, the Far East, or Africa for a long while? (several years or so)

[T_Bone]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
@T-Bone
Have you actually ever been to the Middle East, the Far East, or Africa for a long while? (several years or so)

Oh I haven't been to too many places, Israel, Mexico, Canada, Hawaii, and Kenya, just vacations, but nothing changes, people are simply people, generally wanting the same things from life that we all do. Everywhere people eat poop and sleep at regular intervals, laugh at funny things and cry when they're sad. Sure there are minor differences, but seeing as how the eating pooping sleeping laughing and crying, everyone has in common, it's pretty easy to dismiss everything else as minor, and nothing that would stand in the way of relating to them. I have bigger diferences with people in my own town than I've seen anywhere else. :-)

Maybe I'll get to Europe one of these days, I want to see these "neds" I keep hearing about! :lol:

[iamaboringperson]

I doubt they were rioting because people misunderstand their body language and facial gestures! :roflmao:

[iamaboringperson]

Another sob story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3492969.stm) :cry: boohoo :boohoo: *cry* :-(

Aborigines are the most disadvantaged group in Australia.:lol:

Who trusts the BBC? 'BS' is probably more accurate!

[adz]

Hows this for discrimination, my missus is currently out of work and was sent to an employment agency that works on behalf of Centrelink (Australia's Social Security), they have access to job listings that cannot be found by the usual means, ie. newspaper, mycareer etc. etc. anyway, on this list was a section labeled "Indiginous Only", ie. (for those who need it spelled out) jobs that only indiginous people can apply for, kinda racists and discriminatory if you ask me, but hey, who cares, so long as society submits to the grievances of every whining minority group, all is good, right?

[vortexau]

A If anyone perrused the various links on my FIRST post to this topic -- they could not have failed to notice that a LARGE amount of money is poured into Redfern.

In spite of this amount, little (in Redfern) seems to change!
(BTW- My wife & I exited a train at Redfern Station in 1991 after a Sunday visit to the World-Of-Commodore at Darling Harbour . . . we walked north to our hotel which was between two Stations . . . my wife was apprehensive; likely non-Indigenous visitors in Redfern are rare)

ABORIGINAL AND TORRES STRAIT ISLANDER COMMISION (http://www.atsic.gov.au/) . . . ATSIC is Australia’s peak Indigenous organisation and an agency in the Australian Government's Indigenous Portfolio.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

B Before the British arrived in New Holland, Aboriginal Tribes fought each other.

Presently young male aboriginals are OVER REPRESENTED in gaol populations.

The Police can be BRUTAL to anyone! News Footage some seven months ago showed a WHITE Man, already restrained by an officer, being sprayed in the FACE by Pepper Spray!

I generally don't utter profanity. In Australia a charge can be laid of 'Indecent Language'. It is a common practise (of Police) to try to add more serious charges to minor charges. In 1971, I was arrested on a charge of Failing to Stop/ Dangerous Driving following an attempt by a Q-Car (unmarked Policecar) to stop me for speeding. Two Police Cars chased my BMW R-50/5. When finally stopped, an officer told me that if the chase had continued they would have "shot me"!!!

Later on, when walking between Police Stn & Watch-house, the officer holding me tripped me into a gutter in an attempt to make me utter profanity! I didn't, so they couldn not add a charge of 'Indecent Language'.
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C I would say that the most fulfilled Aboriginals are those working as National Park Rangers & Guides!
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-EDIT- I'd been trying to remember this: The name favoured by many Aboriginals is the name- Murri, which, although once just a regional name for certain tribes, has been TAKEN as a Race Name at large!
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The most unsatisfied Murris are those who live unemployed in white-type housing. Generally, they prefer a large-extended-family structure.

My OWN opinion is that Murri Architechs should design THEIR OWN STYLE of modern housing! It may be that a variation of largish ring-structure Dwelling openning on a central open courtyard-area would be a better choise? Maybe a Kabutz style of community?

In Cities, many Murris gather in public parks during the daytime; unfortunitely where MANY consume large amounts of cheap alcahol which can lead to fighting amoung themselves!
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D There are financial and educational advantages available to ANY who claim Indigenous racial status, OVER and above that available to the Non-Indigenous.

My sister's husband is Part-Aboriginal. They are presently in their SECOND Home financed with Low-Interest Loans. The First home, and the present home, . . . both have pools!

He has been a MD for over 12 years . . . the training & qualifications subsidised.

MANY, MANY, MANY areas of Free or Heavilly-subsidised Vocational Training are available for any claiming Indigenous racial status; BUT . . . there are LARGE Drop-out rates from formal education.
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Americans may notice parallels between their own Amerindians, and the Australian Murris, in regard to levels of shabby housing, low-employment, excessive consumption of alcahol, low-self esteem, etc!

[iamaboringperson]

The Police can be BRUTAL to anyone! News Footage some seven months ago showed a WHITE Man, already restrained by an officer, being sprayed in the FACE by Pepper Spray!There was also that incident with the guy being beaten with a large lump of wood!




Back in the '70's, my old man was put into an outdoor jail (basically just a big cage) just for driving without a licence!

[Speelgoedmannetje]

/me deletes 'Australia' from my 'possible vacations'-book.

[adz]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
/me deletes 'Australia' from my 'possible vacations'-book.

Awwww...come on, its not that bad...

[Speelgoedmannetje]

iamaboringperson wrote:
I doubt they were rioting because people misunderstand their body language and facial gestures! :roflmao:mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm onliners.......

[iamaboringperson]

The way things are in Australia (http://heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,8713847%255E25717,00.html)

Yep, that's the whole truth right there!

We pay for this sh!t

[Speelgoedmannetje]

Don't make me more confident than I already am Iama.

[T_Bone]

Holy crap! I can't believe these words came out of a community leader!

It's disgracefull that the government hasn't cut off funding to this man. He's bad news.