PDA

View Full Version : Licensing Kickstart ROMs for Raspberry Pi


eben
07-12-2012, 01:29 PM
For the last few months I've been making sporadic attempts to locate the copyright holder in the Amiga ROMs, with a view to allowing Raspberry Pi users to legally use emulators like UAE. Unfortunately I've met with little success.

Can someone enlighten me as to where the copyrights currently reside?

Eben Upton
Executive Director, Raspberry Pi Foundation

Heiroglyph
07-12-2012, 01:35 PM
That may not be easy, the only group I've seen trying to enforce the copyright lately is Cloanto, who would potentially be a competing licensee.

It would be worthwhile to try them though. They might be able to license a portion of their own product to you if nothing else.

Great job on the pi BTW, looks like a good product that I'm very interested in.

Ezrec
07-12-2012, 01:47 PM
Of course, you could always run UAE with the AROS m68k ROMs, which are open source (MPL 1.1 variant)

They provide quite a bit of AmigaOS 3.1 compatibility.

billt
07-12-2012, 02:30 PM
For the last few months I've been making sporadic attempts to locate the copyright holder in the Amiga ROMs, with a view to allowing Raspberry Pi users to legally use emulators like UAE. Unfortunately I've met with little success.

Can someone enlighten me as to where the copyrights currently reside?


There's always the free AROS equivalents now... Ah, I'm late to that, sorry for the dupe. Though I would like a link to them, as my first quest came up empty to find them.

kehil
07-12-2012, 02:43 PM
According to open source Kickstart alternative try to contact Toni Wilen thru http://eab.abime.net/member.php?u=257 as he is one of the developers. More info for example here http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=56211&highlight=kickstart+alternative

Terminills
07-12-2012, 02:55 PM
According to open source Kickstart alternative try to contact Toni Wilen thru http://eab.abime.net/member.php?u=257 as he is one of the developers. More info for example here http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=56211&highlight=kickstart+alternative
or he can contact ezrec cause that's the other developer. :P

Terminills
07-12-2012, 02:58 PM
There's always the free AROS equivalents now... Ah, I'm late to that, sorry for the dupe. Though I would like a link to them, as my first quest came up empty to find them.



http://aros.sourceforge.net/download.php

aros 68k iso extract it they are in the boot folder with a .bin and .ext extension.

Heiroglyph
07-12-2012, 03:08 PM
I know Toni is only working on it for WinUAE so he will get it working, but as of right now, I wouldn't call it a working solution.

Knowing him, it eventually will be the best solution but it's far from perfect at the moment.

eben
07-12-2012, 03:23 PM
That may not be easy, the only group I've seen trying to enforce the copyright lately is Cloanto, who would potentially be a competing licensee.

It would be worthwhile to try them though. They might be able to license a portion of their own product to you if nothing else.

Do you believe they own the copyright, or do they just have a license? Their website implies the latter, but some of their efforts to actually enforce the copyright imply the former.

Great job on the pi BTW, looks like a good product that I'm very interested in.

Thanks. It's been a real labor of love, and it's great to see it paying off.

desiv
07-12-2012, 03:31 PM
Do you believe they own the copyright, or do they just have a license? Their website implies the latter, but some of their efforts to actually enforce the copyright imply the former..

They are definitely just a licensee...
That said, they might be your best contact to either:
a: Find out who the owner is. They should know who they bought it from.
b: Resell it. It's possible, as they are licensed for the ROM for emulation purposes, that they might be able to work with you on a license distribution.

Good luck, and thanx for shaking up the world a bit.. ;-)

desiv

Heiroglyph
07-12-2012, 03:32 PM
Do you believe they own the copyright, or do they just have a license? Their website implies the latter, but some of their efforts to actually enforce the copyright imply the former.


My thoughts exactly. The ownership is quite a dispute with much questionable paperwork involved.

Personally, I think they had a license at one time and are just running with it since there is no one to dispute their claims.

I'm not aware of any licenses in perpetuity.


Thanks. It's been a real labor of love, and it's great to see it paying off.

It shows, I can't wait to get my hands on one. My Beagleboard has been a bit of a disappointment.

eben
07-12-2012, 03:49 PM
Well, I've left a message with Cloanto. I'll report back if I get any useful clarification.

Leffmann
07-12-2012, 03:55 PM
It seems nobody has been able to answer this for the last 15 years. A quick glance at https://sites.google.com/site/freeamiga/ shows just what a spectacle this is and how much illicit activity it has been surrounded by.

The only party enforcing the copyright is Cloanto, but they say they don't know who owns the Kickstart, and don't seem to be interested in finding out. They don't even seem to know who they got their own license from.

Cloanto are also the only party who profits from selling the Kickstart and Workbench software. What a coincidence.

If someone did own the rights and cared about protecting them then they would've come forward and settled this many years ago, and I more believe the theory that the rights perished with the liquidation of Commodore.

If someone actually still own the rights then it would most likely be Amiga Inc. or Hyperion Entertainment, but if even Amiga Inc. themselves can't or refuse to give any answers then it just further supports the theory that the rights are lost and that the software is in the PD.

If you're able to find any answers it would be great if you could let us know here as well.

dammy
07-12-2012, 04:09 PM
Well, I've left a message with Cloanto. I'll report back if I get any useful clarification.

They can sell it to you per unit, but the actual owner is Amiga Inc which Cloanto has a license agreement with for the WB/KS 1.0-3.1's IP.

gaula92
07-12-2012, 04:29 PM
Wow! Eben Upton posting in Amiga.org!

I have my Raspberry Pi since May and I love it. It's currently running Gentoo Linux and the awesome Risc OS.
I believe the way to go would be AROS (native port was talked about time ago..) with the AROS replacement ROM: no need to mess with thieves, in my opinion.
UAE on Linux on the Rpi is NOT a good idea, believe me. To archieve smooth scroll you'd need custom video modes on X and SDL on OpenGL backend. Another option would be the SDL on the framebuffer, with the adequate custom modes in /etc/fb.modes, but I don't know how good is the framebuffer driver for the Rpi.
What's your plan, if you can tell me?

haywirepc
07-12-2012, 05:18 PM
The truth, the real truth is no one can prove legal ownership of the kickstart roms. If someone could, they would have done so. Instead, each time this question comes up, the amiga grave robbers still profiting from selling these ancient rom files are deadly silent.

I'm glad the aros kickstart roms will soon end this bull****. I hope they will continue to improve and provide a level of compatibility that will mean the old actual amiga kickstart roms are no longer needed.

I don't believe the pi has enough horsepower to adequately emulate an amiga without alot of dropped frames, skipping sound and so forth, but I could be wrong... If there was an optimized aros distro just for PI, it may be able to emulate classic apps without problems, but I'm not sure it would deal well with very demanding aga games and so on...

Matt_H
07-12-2012, 05:34 PM
For the last few months I've been making sporadic attempts to locate the copyright holder in the Amiga ROMs, with a view to allowing Raspberry Pi users to legally use emulators like UAE. Unfortunately I've met with little success.

Can someone enlighten me as to where the copyrights currently reside?

Eben Upton
Executive Director, Raspberry Pi Foundation

Welcome! You've stumbled into a minefield regarding the Amiga's Kickstart ROMs. Even the so-called Amiga Inc.'s ownership of them is in dispute. We, as a collective community, have been trying to figure out definitive ownership for years.

As others have said, Cloanto and AROS are probably your best bets. If Cloanto can't license you the ROMs directly, they can probably license you Amiga Forever, which would be a neat, all-in-one solution. It might be a little more expensive per unit, but it will probably pay for itself in terms of reduction of headaches and legal nonsense with Amiga Inc. and other litigious entities.

AROS will be free, or close to it, but it's not as out-of-the box as Amiga Forever. You'd gain some performance in that it would be running natively on the Pi's CPU, but said CPU may not have enough horsepower to power many of the modern AROS applications. Then again, it may - I'm not sure. You'd still be under emulation for the "classic" stuff, albeit in a more integrated way.

deadwood
07-12-2012, 10:57 PM
AROS will be free, or close to it, but it's not as out-of-the box as Amiga Forever. You'd gain some performance in that it would be running natively on the Pi's CPU, but said CPU may not have enough horsepower to power many of the modern AROS applications. Then again, it may - I'm not sure. You'd still be under emulation for the "classic" stuff, albeit in a more integrated way.

As per this post, Pascal Papara is already working on integrating AROS Vision m68k which uses AROS Kickstart ROM into AEROS which already runs on Pi. So ROMs can come to Pi sooner than we think :

http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=6443&start=20#86886

djos
07-12-2012, 11:17 PM
Another option is to just refer ppl to google search for TOSEC Amiga Roms:
*LINK REMOVED*

haywirepc
07-13-2012, 12:02 AM
NICE. Thanks DJOS.

I am downloading this torrent now. I do own amiga forever, but its nice to just have the roms for linux uae or whatever else I want without using those.

In my view after buying some 10 amiga computers over the years, I think I'm morally fine just downloading and using the roms to emulate my old software collection.

Of course, other people would call that piracy. Those people are either amiga grave robbers or have some connection to them.

bloodline
07-13-2012, 12:06 AM
For the last few months I've been making sporadic attempts to locate the copyright holder in the Amiga ROMs, with a view to allowing Raspberry Pi users to legally use emulators like UAE. Unfortunately I've met with little success.

Can someone enlighten me as to where the copyrights currently reside?

Eben Upton
Executive Director, Raspberry Pi Foundation
Hi Eben,

I'm a Raspberry Pi user and suggest that you look at (the 68k build of) AROS for Amiga operating system files. Since it's free, open source and unencumbered with Licence issues.

I'm still trying to get an Amiga Emulator to build on my Pi, GLES is cause the most headaches right now. More interesting is a direct compile of AROS for the RasPi, which makes a lot more sense than an OS as heavy as Debian :)

djos
07-13-2012, 12:14 AM
NICE. Thanks DJOS.

I am downloading this torrent now. I do own amiga forever, but its nice to just have the roms for linux uae or whatever else I want without using those.

In my view after buying some 10 amiga computers over the years, I think I'm morally fine just downloading and using the roms to emulate my old software collection.

Of course, other people would call that piracy. Those people are either amiga grave robbers or have some connection to them.
i figure if you own the physical roms (i have 1.3, 2.04 & 3.1 for a500) then you are legally entitled to "format shift" them. :cool:

KimmoK
07-13-2012, 01:44 AM
For the last few months I've been making sporadic attempts to locate the copyright holder in the Amiga ROMs, with a view to allowing Raspberry Pi users to legally use emulators like UAE. Unfortunately I've met with little success.

Can someone enlighten me as to where the copyrights currently reside?

Eben Upton
Executive Director, Raspberry Pi Foundation

Hyperion definitely have some kind of rights to AOS3 ROM files.
Perhaps worth to ask:
http://hyperion-entertainment.com/
From OS News: "settlement agreement under which Hyperion gets the rights to the Amiga trademarks, as well as the rights to AmigaOS 3.x, AmigaOS 4.x, and any possible future version."
And info at hyperion: http://www.hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=134:hyperion-entertainment-cvba-and-amiga-inc-reach-settlement&catid=38:corporate&Itemid=18

(AOS3 ROMS nowdays ship with AOS4, made by Hyperion. They might be interested in ARM port as well, if funding can be arranged.)

And, IIRC, Amiga ROMs + AOS3 bootable system can be bought from Cloanto for a few euros per licence. Worth to check, definitely.
http://www.amigaforever.com/

AmigaBlitter
07-13-2012, 02:10 AM
@eben

Welcome mr. Eben.

Good to see that Amiga still in the heart of many.
Just a coucle of questions about the PI: it's hard to get the Broadcom graphics chip driver source code? Broadcom gives away this driver as opensource or what?

Another intriguing question: what about an Amiga device PPC based similar to the Raspberry?

KimmoK
07-13-2012, 02:31 AM
[QUOTE=AmigaBlitter;699941]@eben
...PPC based similar to the Raspberry?
QUOTE]

It would require some new PPC chip, IMHO.
(from Verisilicon or ChinaChip)

dammy
07-13-2012, 04:02 AM
The truth, the real truth is no one can prove legal ownership of the kickstart roms. If someone could, they would have done so. Instead, each time this question comes up, the amiga grave robbers still profiting from selling these ancient rom files are deadly silent.

Someone has to own them, and that would be Amiga Inc. If it's not Amiga Inc, it would default to Commodore Holding as the last owner. With the release of the AROS 68K and AROS replacement kickstart, Amiga Inc's IP has significantly devalued AI's WB/KS files but that does not remove ownership.

wawrzon
07-13-2012, 06:19 AM
Hi Eben,

I'm a Raspberry Pi user and suggest that you look at (the 68k build of) AROS for Amiga operating system files. Since it's free, open source and unencumbered with Licence issues.

I'm still trying to get an Amiga Emulator to build on my Pi, GLES is cause the most headaches right now. More interesting is a direct compile of AROS for the RasPi, which makes a lot more sense than an OS as heavy as Debian :)
its neccessary to mention that aros/kickstart 68k although progressing very well, is not yet ready for everyday use. there are still bugs on a ground level, apparently hard to hunt down. but i hope it will be sun a real alternative.

bloodline
07-13-2012, 07:10 AM
its neccessary to mention that aros/kickstart 68k although progressing very well, is not yet ready for everyday use. there are still bugs on a ground level, apparently hard to hunt down. but i hope it will be sun a real alternative.
It's far more important to note that Amiga emulation on the Raspberry Pi is much further behind AROS ;)

phoenixkonsole
07-13-2012, 11:38 AM
@eben

this is AmigaOS launching xterm.
It's called Aminux and will be available sooner than later for Pi too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FbDJAVLjWI

haywirepc
07-13-2012, 11:57 AM
Now I really have to buy a pi... I was going to anyway, but with all the amiga stuff with them, its a great little board to play with.

cgutjahr
07-13-2012, 12:25 PM
Do you believe they own the copyright, or do they just have a license?
Okay, I'll try to sum it up for you (believe it or not, the following summary is the simplified version):

There is only one entity that claims to own the Kickstart ROMs (amongst other things): Amiga Inc., available (sometimes) at amiga.com (http://www.amiga.com). There are several problems though:

1. They licensed most of the rights regarding the Kickstarts, including the right to distribute them in anything but simple emulator-autostarting-a-single-game packages or Amiga-in-a-joystick type hardware, to another entity exclusively: Hyperion Entertainment (http://www.hyperion-entertainment.biz). Both parties hate each other with a vengeance, and neither trusts the agreement between them (which is available here (http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/washington/wawdce/2:2007cv00631/143245/147/1.html)) or intends to abide by the rules defined in it. You could ask Hyperion for a license, but they're probably just waiting for some idiot who's testing if Amiga Inc. can still pay its lawyers.

2. In an effort to avoid paying taxes, landlords and former employees or partners, Amiga Inc. moved, restructered and renamed itself half a dozen times in the last decade. At the end, nobody cared enough to bring them down, but you won't find many people who wouldn't agree that some really shady stuff has been going on. Even if they did own the IP in question at one point in time, it would probably be easy to finish them off for good. And that's not even counting the paperwork for all these IP transfers and sales, which is a horrible mess (we know, because it was documented in a court case).

3. Nobody knows, if Amiga Inc. ever owned the Kickstart ROMs. They allegedly bought them from Gateway, who allegedly bought them from the bancrupt ESCOM in 1997, who had allegedly acquired them when buying the bancrupt Commodore in 1995. But in 1997, a German judge ruled that ESCOM didn't provide any paperwork that proved they acquired the Kickstart rights along with the trademarks etc. That doesn't mean they didn't have such paperwork lying around somewhere (the company was long defunct when the judge made his decision), but it was only halfheartedly fixed during the sale to Gateway a few months later.

Basically, you will probably have to contact Hyperion, or maybe Amiga Inc. (depending on the exact use for the ROMs you have in mind, see the agreement). If you contact the latter, don't expect an answer unless you promise to provide tons of money or to hurt Hyperion real bad. If you contact the former, expect paranoia and greed, and make sure you don't mind being used as a guinea pig.

Your best bet might be the effort to create free ROMs using the open source AmigaOS clone AROS. Not there yet, but they're getting closer.

persia
07-13-2012, 04:06 PM
So it would seem that the ROMs are the property of AsiaRIM or who ever owns Commodore rights and that both AI and Hyperion are pirates...

cgutjahr
07-13-2012, 04:43 PM
So it would seem that the ROMs are the property of AsiaRIM or who ever owns Commodore rights and that both AI and Hyperion are pirates...
No. Asiarim (who might or might not own the Commodore trademark) belongs to the 2nd string of companies more or less inheriting ESCOM (one string for the Amiga stuff, one string for the rest of the Commodore IP).

If ESCOM owned the Kickstart ROMs, they were transfered to Gateway. If ESCOM didn't own the ROMs, they certainly didn't end up with Tulip/Yeahronimo/Asiarim.

persia
07-13-2012, 07:12 PM
If Escom didn't get the rights then they remained with the rump of Commodore, which eventually went the Asiarim route. The copyright went one way or the other, it didn't remain in limbo.

cgutjahr
07-13-2012, 09:59 PM
If Escom didn't get the rights then they remained with the rump of Commodore, which eventually went the Asiarim route.
There's no direct connection between Commodore and Asiarim. Whatever Asiarim bought (they didn't actually buy it, long story) came from Yeahronimo, who bought it from Tulip, who bought it from... ESCOM. If ESCOM didn't own the Kickstart rights, there's no way Asiarim could own them.


The copyright went one way or the other, it didn't remain in limbo.

Exactly, but for a start we don't know if ESCOM owned the rights or not - and if they didn't we don't know who does. Way too early to run out there and label people thiefs or a pirates.

persia
07-14-2012, 08:14 PM
When they sold off Commodore how did they do it? The whole thing or bits and pieces? Escom must have made the purchase from somebody, a creditor or someone.

haywirepc
07-14-2012, 11:03 PM
As I have stated before no one has ever proven ownership of the roms since the fall of commodore. I say by now, these files are public domain, and so should everyone else.

kolla
07-15-2012, 02:39 AM
@eben

this is AmigaOS launching xterm.
It's called Aminux and will be available sooner than later for Pi too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FbDJAVLjWI

I don't grasp what this shows. Launching programs of the host OS from within UAE has been possible since forever, so what'sthe big deal? Now if that xterm had popped up in a Intuition window inside UAE instead of ontop of it, that would have been something.

cgutjahr
07-15-2012, 08:34 AM
When they sold off Commodore how did they do it? The whole thing or bits and pieces?
You're looking for easy answers, but usually there are no easy answers.

That said, ESCOM did buy "the whole thing", i.e. the parent company Commodore International, and of course they (and with them, the rest of the world) thought they owned the Kickstart ROMs. If there's no paperwork to prove that, it's just a management screw-up, not the ultimate proof that everybody lied to us for a decade and a half (well, they lied to us - but not about that ;))

Besides, you really need to get the idea out of your head that there's a knight in shiny armour waiting somewhere to come out of hiding and rescue AmigaOS. If you manage to take away the Kickstart ROMS from ESCOM and its successors (which means another lawsuit which is going to drag on for years), there's just going to be a new owner who wants to make money with his new baby. And if there's one thing we don't need after 18 years, it's yet another owner trying to make money.

Pentad
07-15-2012, 08:35 AM
As I have stated before no one has ever proven ownership of the roms since the fall of commodore. I say by now, these files are public domain, and so should everyone else.

I am *not* a lawyer but I taught basic Copyright at the University for years and I can tell you that it just doesn't go into the Public Domain.

If you are not aware, a copyright is good until 75 years after the author's death. In this case, I think the following applies:

An employee who writes code does not get the copyright, that goes to the employer. (If you are a contractor it is different)

The employer gets said copyright and can keep or sell it like any other property.

If the employer's business goes bankrupt or is dissolved, the copyright returns to the original author - the employee. It would never go into the Public Domain by default.

Many software authors from the early 1980s found they had their copyrights to their own games back once the many companies went under. They then could release them into the Public Domain or GPL or whatever.

Kickstart is complicated because it is written modular but works as one. This is my best guess as a layman: I think each author would get his or her own code back. So, RJ would get Intuition back, Carl would get Exec back, etc... I'm not sure how they handle multiple people on a piece of code - say three people who wrote XYZ Library. Maybe they split the copyright? I'm sure they would just end up in court.

Bottom line, Kickstart is stuck in a legal minefield and it will remain that way until after everyone here is dead. The best you could hope for is that a single benevolent company owns Kickstart and makes it GPL or Public Domain (good luck). If the copyright has returned to the authors -I believe- you would have to seek all of their permission to have their code moved to GPL or Public Domain.

I personally believe that nobody knows for sure and that it would take a great deal of money to sort it all out. I suspect A LOT OF MONEY to read through all the paper work, talk to the attorneys, sort the different laws in different countries, etc... Somebody does own it, but the cost of figuring that out is just not worth it. If there was money in licensing it or something I'm sure they would track it down.

Perhaps find a copyright attorney, explain the situation, get his estimated retainer fee on this, and then take up a collection?


Does anybody actually have the source code for Kickstart? Does Amiga, Inc. or whomever actually have the original source code?


-P

bloodline
07-15-2012, 09:28 AM
Why do I get the feeling we've just been (very successfully) Tolled? ;)

persia
07-15-2012, 09:41 AM
Berne Convention, which is in effect outside of the EU and US says 50 years after death. One of the reasons we're stuck with "the dirge" as a national anthem is because Waltzing Matilda, while public domain here and most of the world, it is still under copyright in those two locations and we would have had to pay royalties when played there!

number6
07-15-2012, 10:25 AM
Okay, I'll try to sum it up for you (believe it or not, the following summary is the simplified version):

There is only one entity that claims to own the Kickstart ROMs (amongst other things): Amiga Inc., available (sometimes) at amiga.com (http://www.amiga.com). There are several problems though:

1. They licensed most of the rights regarding the Kickstarts, including the right to distribute them in anything but simple emulator-autostarting-a-single-game packages or Amiga-in-a-joystick type hardware, to another entity exclusively: Hyperion Entertainment (http://www.hyperion-entertainment.biz). Both parties hate each other with a vengeance, and neither trusts the agreement between them (which is available here (http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/washington/wawdce/2:2007cv00631/143245/147/1.html)) or intends to abide by the rules defined in it. You could ask Hyperion for a license, but they're probably just waiting for some idiot who's testing if Amiga Inc. can still pay its lawyers.

2. In an effort to avoid paying taxes, landlords and former employees or partners, Amiga Inc. moved, restructered and renamed itself half a dozen times in the last decade. At the end, nobody cared enough to bring them down, but you won't find many people who wouldn't agree that some really shady stuff has been going on. Even if they did own the IP in question at one point in time, it would probably be easy to finish them off for good. And that's not even counting the paperwork for all these IP transfers and sales, which is a horrible mess (we know, because it was documented in a court case).

3. Nobody knows, if Amiga Inc. ever owned the Kickstart ROMs. They allegedly bought them from Gateway, who allegedly bought them from the bancrupt ESCOM in 1997, who had allegedly acquired them when buying the bancrupt Commodore in 1995. But in 1997, a German judge ruled that ESCOM didn't provide any paperwork that proved they acquired the Kickstart rights along with the trademarks etc. That doesn't mean they didn't have such paperwork lying around somewhere (the company was long defunct when the judge made his decision), but it was only halfheartedly fixed during the sale to Gateway a few months later.

Basically, you will probably have to contact Hyperion, or maybe Amiga Inc. (depending on the exact use for the ROMs you have in mind, see the agreement). If you contact the latter, don't expect an answer unless you promise to provide tons of money or to hurt Hyperion real bad. If you contact the former, expect paranoia and greed, and make sure you don't mind being used as a guinea pig.

Your best bet might be the effort to create free ROMs using the open source AmigaOS clone AROS. Not there yet, but they're getting closer.


Good post.
Although I might say get in touch with an intermediary instead of trying to contact either of the 2 companies directly, if one has issues with direct contact.

#6

dammy
07-15-2012, 10:40 AM
Okay, I'll try to sum it up for you (believe it or not, the following summary is the simplified version):

There is only one entity that claims to own the Kickstart ROMs (amongst other things): Amiga Inc., available (sometimes) at amiga.com (http://www.amiga.com). There are several problems though:

1. They licensed most of the rights regarding the Kickstarts, including the right to distribute them in anything but simple emulator-autostarting-a-single-game packages or Amiga-in-a-joystick type hardware, to another entity exclusively: Hyperion Entertainment (http://www.hyperion-entertainment.biz).

Did you forget about Cloanto's license? So much for exclusively.

number6
07-15-2012, 10:52 AM
Did you forget about Cloanto's license? So much for exclusively.


I believe cgutjahr is speaking about Amiga Inc. and Hyperion. That's not where the original Cloanto license came from, as you well know. I'll let him clarify that bit.

#6

cgutjahr
07-15-2012, 11:27 AM
Did you forget about Cloanto's license? So much for exclusively.
No I didn't. If the original poster is legit, he's searching for a way to distribute Kickstart ROMs with/for the Raspberry Pi. Distributing an emulator package on DVD is probably not what he has in mind - but that's all Cloanto have to offer.

And please don't get nervous that CUSA might not be able to distribute proper ROMs. They're not going to do that, ever. They wouldn't even know legit ROMs if they bit them in the ass. You may keep daydreaming about it as much as you want, but it's not going to happen. Period.

Andre.Siegel
07-15-2012, 11:45 AM
Distributing an emulator package on DVD is probably not what he has in mind - but that's all Cloanto have to offer.

Actually, they are offering various editions of Amiga Forever. The value edition costs 9.95 EUR(incl. VAT) and is available as a digital download only. One would assume that volume customers should be able to negotiate a more favorable per-unit price.

desiv
07-15-2012, 12:20 PM
Actually, they are offering various editions of Amiga Forever.
Yeah, I would think Cloanto "could" be fairly creative with the distribution.

It's too bad they don't have a "FULL" version of Amiga Forever that runs on Linux (based on E-UAE or ?).
If so, as that's what is most likely to power any Amiga on the Pi, they'd be more likely to work out a deal...

I can even see something that's basically just the kickstarts with UAE and maybe an AD of some kind in the launcher encouraging people to look at their more feature complete product.

But that's less likely to be successful if you telling people who are running a Linux based solution on a box that won't run Windows to "upgrade" to the Windows version.. ;-)

If they are looking at doing something VERY specific tho, such as including an version of UAE that is configured to only run Elite, and that maybe has an ad for AmigaForever.. That might be considered a win-win...

(Would be nicer if there was a full Amiga Forever for UAE tho, and I run and love Amiga Forever.. It's a great wrapper around a great piece of software. Just that Pi won't run it..)

desiv

dammy
07-15-2012, 12:24 PM
No I didn't. If the original poster is legit, he's searching for a way to distribute Kickstart ROMs with/for the Raspberry Pi. Distributing an emulator package on DVD is probably not what he has in mind - but that's all Cloanto have to offer.

Like Cloanto can't make a deal for the kickstart images alone.

And please don't get nervous that CUSA might not be able to distribute proper ROMs. They're not going to do that, ever. They wouldn't even know legit ROMs if they bit them in the ass. You may keep daydreaming about it as much as you want, but it's not going to happen. Period.

Like I would expect you to know jack on what C=USA's contractual options are?

SpeedGeek
07-16-2012, 06:23 AM
The topic of who is the legal owner of AmigaOS has now become so complicated it could lead to endless debate! If the theory that Amiga Inc. did not properly obtain the intellectual property rights from Gateway who never got them from Escom holds true, then the Hyperion license for OS4 is not valid and the H&P license for OS3.5 & OS3.9 is not valid either.

Possible conclusion, unless their license was obtained from C= none of these party's have a right to sell or distribute AmigaOS!

cgutjahr
07-16-2012, 12:31 PM
Like Cloanto can't make a deal for the kickstart images alone.

They haven't done so for the last fifteen years they've been selling Amiga Forever - draw your own conclusions.

Like I would expect you to know jack on what C=USA's contractual options are?
I know Barry.

Possible conclusion
Look, I'm not happy about the situation as it is - but ESCOM did buy the rights, I have no doubt about it (and neither did they, or anybody else in the community - until recently). Heck, they bought the whole company. Even if there is a hole in the paperwork (which is not proven by the outcome of the lawsuit in Germany), trying to use that against any ESCOM follow-ups would just be as petty and miserable as the performance of said ESCOM follow-ups.

And AmigaOS still wouldn't be "free", there would still be an owner, and he would still be as dumb and greedy as all other owners have been.

number6
07-16-2012, 12:42 PM
And AmigaOS still wouldn't be "free", there would still be an owner, and he would still be as dumb and greedy as all other owners have been.


Dunno. There was one that contacted Pluritas about buying the IP. Weird guy though. Actually had trust, communicated with people constantly, believed in doing something for everyone's benefit.
I always assumed that's why he got stabbed in the back. We can't afford to have that kind of attitude from management.

#6

cgutjahr
07-16-2012, 01:58 PM
Dunno. There was one that contacted Pluritas about buying the IP.
As you said, he didn't end up as an owner - and I agree: go figure ;)

But in this hypothetical scenario, we're talking about a guy who's searching for a legal loophole, forces another entity that thinks it has rightfully obtained some IP into a lawsuit and simply steals the IP from them.

Oh wait, that's not hypothetical at all... But still, that is the kind of person who would end up owning AmigaOS. I'm not sure that would be an improvement.

number6
07-16-2012, 02:29 PM
As you said, he didn't end up as an owner - and I agree: go figure ;)


Well, in his case he committed the cardinal sin of thinking this was a real business and asked for an NDA.
But I don't think that mattered much since all they wanted was for people to submit business plans, since they had none of their own.

#6

NGNAmiga
07-19-2012, 02:27 AM
I contacted Petro T. Tyschtschenko the other day and he just got back to me with the following about Amiga IP.


My understanding is that Gateway is the owner.

best regards Petro T. Tyschtschenko (https://www.facebook.com/ptyschtschenko)

bloodline
07-19-2012, 03:30 AM
I contacted Petro T. Tyschtschenko the other day and he just got back to me with the following about Amiga IP.


My understanding is that Gateway is the owner.

best regards Petro T. Tyschtschenko (https://www.facebook.com/ptyschtschenko)
Yes, this is already known. The question is who owns the copyright of the Amiga Operating System ROMs and libraries :)

(Not that it really matters now we have a 68k version of AROS)

polyp2000
07-19-2012, 04:58 AM
There is one quick way to find out and that is to start using it and wait until someone rears their head with a C+D ... at that point you can start to discuss the licensing terms.

wawrzon
07-19-2012, 05:22 AM
Yes, this is already known. The question is who owns the copyright of the Amiga Operating System ROMs and libraries :)

(Not that it really matters now we have a 68k version of AROS)
apparently that isnt always a valid solution for companies. here someone made aros68k run on a coldfire industrial board, but apparently was prohibited even to show demo it on youtube, because of the license which isnt gpl.
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=36055&forum=17&start=200&viewmode=flat&order=0
post 214:

Okay everyone,

I have the verdict regarding the project.

Here's the story:

Today, before lunch I asked my immediate supervisor if I could take some pics of the prototype. He replied, "You can take pictures and video of the screen, but not the hardware, because that hardware is a special run for one of our clients. It is not intended to be marketed to the general public." I said okay, fine. I was going to wait until lunchtime, and then do the pics and video of the screen while the board was in operation. Lunch time arrived, but before I could do it, my supervisor asked me to come with him to talk with the president.

The president asked me about my project, and I told him that I made "an emulator for a 1980's computer from Commodore, based on the Motorola 68000." He asked me, "Is all of the code your own work?" I told him that the firmware and the bootstrap was all mine, the most of the FPGA code and some of the Aros code was mine, the rest was already there. He then asked, "What license is the source code available under? GPL? BSD?" I then told him that part of the FPGA code was GPL, while Aros was APL. He said, "Affero or Apache Public License?", I replied that Aros was a custom license.

He then replied, "Unfortunately, I cannot allow you to display our hardware running ANY code that isn't licensed under an OSI recognized license, for legal reasons." He then proceeded, "Imagine if an IBM engineer posted a video on YouTube of an IBM machine running OS X from Apple? Apple's legal team would file a lawsuit against IBM within 10 minutes of it going live."

He then went on to say that if I made my own OS or software of whatever, they would offer it on the company FTP for our customers, but it would have to be ALL my code or under an OSI license, no exceptions. He then said that he thought it was a nice concept and that I am a talented programmer, and perhaps I should consider making a project that I could call my own.

So now I have to find something GPL to run on the prototype, write my own OS (i'll be done when Hell is done freezing over) or scrap everything.

Any ideas or suggestions are welcome... I'm at a blank.

post 284 in the same thread contains a link to a video running emutos on the same device instad, which was approved for licensing reasons.

@wawa

The video is up... http://youtu.be/mrBvJozVpcA

given thats all for real, but it seems so.

bloodline
07-19-2012, 05:30 AM
apparently that isnt always a valid solution for companies. here someone made aros68k run on a coldfire industrial board, but apparently was prohibited even to show demo it on youtube, because of the license which isnt gpl.
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=36055&forum=17&start=200&viewmode=flat&order=0
post 214:

post 284 in the same thread contains a link to a video running emutos on the same device instad, which was approved for licensing reasons.

given thats all for real, but it seems so.
AROS public licence is just the Apache Public licence with the relevant terms adjusted for reference to AROS... But I guess not a lot of people know that :-/

dammy
07-19-2012, 05:58 AM
They haven't done so for the last fifteen years they've been selling Amiga Forever - draw your own conclusions.

I would chalk that up to no one asking who went through with a contract.


I know Barry.


And your a mind reader, gotcha.

Look, I'm not happy about the situation as it is - but ESCOM did buy the rights, I have no doubt about it (and neither did they, or anybody else in the community - until recently). Heck, they bought the whole company. Even if there is a hole in the paperwork (which is not proven by the outcome of the lawsuit in Germany), trying to use that against any ESCOM follow-ups would just be as petty and miserable as the performance of said ESCOM follow-ups.

And AmigaOS still wouldn't be "free", there would still be an owner, and he would still be as dumb and greedy as all other owners have been.

Why don't you go ask the Bahama Court appointed Trustee for C=? If someone else had owned the kickstart (or the rest of the OS for that matter), they would have been screaming about violating their IP when ESCOM produced additional Amigas and sold off Amiga to Gateway. Or is it to your belief that the Bahama Courts still retain control of that IP?

JJ
07-19-2012, 06:08 AM
There is one quick way to find out and that is to start using it and wait until someone rears their head with a C+D ... at that point you can start to discuss the licensing terms.


which will forever now be know as the "Commdore USA gambit"

wawrzon
07-19-2012, 07:48 AM
AROS public licence is just the Apache Public licence with the relevant terms adjusted for reference to AROS... But I guess not a lot of people know that :-/

aros licensing issues have been disputed on the ml list not long ago but nothing came out of that. everything has been postponed in lack of a real world issue, the discussion could relate to. now as i see here and on the other thread, such issues likely exist. most of those potentially interested in aros likely not even ask, seing something called "aros public license" they are not familiar with. in this situation aros likely remains a hobby solution, in a situation where it likely would have a chance to become a practically used one. this all beacuse the aros team doesnt expose the interface to the outside world where anyone could dock on, because they doubt anyone would, because none did so far...

number6
07-19-2012, 07:58 AM
Yes, this is already known. The question is who owns the copyright of the Amiga Operating System ROMs and libraries :)


Perhaps determining who is licensing holds more weight at this point than any proof of ownership.
One thing we know from the Jens Schoenfeld posting about negotiating recently...it sure wasn't with Amiga Inc.

#6

dammy
07-19-2012, 08:17 AM
Perhaps determining who is licensing holds more weight at this point than any proof of ownership.
One thing we know from the Jens Schoenfeld posting about negotiating recently...it sure wasn't with Amiga Inc.

#6

The smart move would to be just use AROS kickstart and be done with it. There is no reason to pay out money any more for the original kcikstart.

Fats
07-19-2012, 02:08 PM
AROS public licence is just the Apache Public licence with the relevant terms adjusted for reference to AROS... But I guess not a lot of people know that :-/

It's the Mozilla Public License...
Staf.

wawrzon
07-19-2012, 06:21 PM
i see the issue has got some attention on aros exec and meets necessary action. much appreciated. i hope soon comes he time when none needs to ask the questions about the origin of amiga kickstart license, being aware of aros as sloution. such a relief, it has been too long............................

Kooler
07-22-2012, 06:01 PM
I contacted Petro T. Tyschtschenko the other day and he just got back to me with the following about Amiga IP.


My understanding is that Gateway is the owner.

best regards Petro T. Tyschtschenko (https://www.facebook.com/ptyschtschenko)

You created a fresh amiga.org account just to make this one post (like you did at raspberrypi.org)?

Mr Tyschtschenko worked for Commodore, ESCOM and in the Gateway days, then he retired. So why do you ask him about what happened afterwards? How is he supposed to know?

psxphill
07-23-2012, 09:31 AM
Mr Tyschtschenko worked for Commodore, ESCOM and in the Gateway days, then he retired. So why do you ask him about what happened afterwards? How is he supposed to know?

Gateway retained the patents, which if you asked about Amiga IP is what you'd be talking about. Trademarks lapse if you don't trade using them & who owns the copyright of the software has been debated in court as there is no documentation of a transfer.

Asking the wrong question is unlikely to get the answer you want.
What was it you wanted to know?

persia
07-23-2012, 08:13 PM
There should be no Amiga Patents left, they only last for 17 years...

haywirepc
07-23-2012, 08:21 PM
Shhhh... The amiga grave robbers will hear you.

Don't you know those people expect to make a living off a corpse for the rest of their lives?

:laugh1:

runequester
07-23-2012, 11:37 PM
have there been any single instance of a ROM site being shut down for hosting amiga ROM's?

mcb
07-24-2012, 01:19 AM
Well, I've left a message with Cloanto. I'll report back if I get any useful clarification.

Since an update has been requested by many visitors here, this is to confirm that we've been exchanging some mails.

As they say, uncertainty is one of the few certainties about software development, and the Amiga has added its own challenges in recent years. This helps explain why the Amiga side of Cloanto generally had a preference for shipping over announcing. I apologize if this could be interpreted as not wanting to be open about whatever may be ongoing. This is not the case. Feedback is always welcome! Feel free to contact me directly or post at http://www.amigaforever.com/contact/.

Regards,

Mike

KimmoK
07-24-2012, 06:15 AM
btw. I noticed some time ago that you can buy some 2eur application for Android to load Amiga kickstart files from the net. (ROMs for free, most likely illegal)

Not tried that app though. (UAE for droid is waiting for me to have more time to play with it)

cgutjahr
07-24-2012, 07:14 AM
There should be no Amiga Patents left, they only last for 17 years...
The USPTO has a nice searchable patent database (http://patft.uspto.gov/) (use "quick search" then search for "Assignee name" = Commodore). The list of results is sorted chronologically. start at the bottom and then go up the list.

For somewhat complicated reasons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Term_of_patent_in_the_United_States), the patents in question expire either 17 years after the issue date or 20 years after the filing date - whatever is the longer term. I count 6 patents which are still active, all of which will expire in the next year.

dammy
07-24-2012, 07:19 AM
have there been any single instance of a ROM site being shut down for hosting amiga ROM's?

The late Gary Peake use to love shutting down Amiga IP pirate sites.

dammy
07-24-2012, 07:21 AM
The USPTO has a nice searchable patent database (http://patft.uspto.gov/) (use "quick search" then search for "Assignee name" = Commodore). The list of results is sorted chronologically. start at the bottom and then go up the list.

For somewhat complicated reasons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Term_of_patent_in_the_United_States), the patents in question expire either 17 years after the issue date or 20 years after the filing date - whatever is the longer term. I count 6 patents which are still active, all of which will expire in the next year.

But the copyrights last nearly forever: http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-duration.html

SpeedGeek
07-24-2012, 09:23 AM
I contacted Petro T. Tyschtschenko the other day and he just got back to me with the following about Amiga IP.


My understanding is that Gateway is the owner.

best regards Petro T. Tyschtschenko (https://www.facebook.com/ptyschtschenko)

Is this the same Petro T. Tyschtschenko who was supposed to deliver 1500 new A1200s from a warehouse in India? :laugh1:

danwood
09-04-2012, 06:38 AM
The USPTO has a nice searchable patent database (http://patft.uspto.gov/) (use "quick search" then search for "Assignee name" = Commodore). The list of results is sorted chronologically. start at the bottom and then go up the list.



The Query ( "Assignee name" = Commodore ) was unparseable (Missing boolean operator between expressions ).

Searching US Patents Text Collection...

Results of Search in US Patents Text Collection db for:
"Assignee name = Commodore": 0 patents.

No patents have matched your query

Hmmn...

som99
09-04-2012, 08:27 AM
have there been any single instance of a ROM site being shut down for hosting amiga ROM's?

Getting the TOSEC of the roms is easier then stealing candy from a baby.
I don't see why Eben even should waste time on it, since everyone who would want the roms for the PI would get them easy.

Also: Eben great work with the PI, I got a few and I love them, have been sharing them to friends so we all can work together :)


I'm still trying to get an Amiga Emulator to build on my Pi, GLES is cause the most headaches right now. More interesting is a direct compile of AROS for the RasPi, which makes a lot more sense than an OS as heavy as Debian :)

Add PND support and you can use this UAE4ALL 2.0 on the PI, maintained by EvilDragon from OpenPandora. Just reconfigure the input and it should work on the PI.
http://boards.openpandora.org/index.php?/topic/8770-uae4all-20/page__hl__amiga

Edit: Without much work you can rebuild the Pandora rootfs with ångström for the PI if your not up for hacking in PND support on your OS build.

cgutjahr
09-04-2012, 05:54 PM
No patents have matched your query

go to the patent database (http://patft.uspto.gov/), click on "quick search", enter "commodore" (without the quotes) in the first search field (labeled "Term 1"), switch the associated drop down gadget (labeled "in Field 1") to "Assignee Name", then click on search - voila, 64 hits.

Note that there are more hits than fit on one page. Use the "next list"/"previous list" buttons to go next/previous page.

Duce
09-04-2012, 06:28 PM
Baffles me why people just don't grab them off a torrent site like the rest of the free world does.

I've paid for them a dozen times over, and I'm not ashamed to admit I've nicked them off TPB rather than dick around with old floppies and such.

I'd rather be labelled a pirate of tech that the rest of the free world forgot about 20 years ago than feed the *******ed vultures that are copyright sitting.

djos
09-04-2012, 06:45 PM
I figure if you have an original ROM, you can format shift it to your hearts content! :cool:

Duce
09-04-2012, 07:51 PM
I figure if you have an original ROM, you can format shift it to your hearts content! :cool:

Heh, sort of how I see it myself. I figure I've paid for it, hmm (A1200, A3000, A2000 x2, A4000, OS4, and Amiga Forever) 6 or 7 times already, I've got no qualms leeching it off TPB, which I am completely unashamed to say I did recently when building a new UAE machine, solely because couldn't find my AF disc with the ROM's/Images.

Fact is, the situation with Kickstart/WB is muddied at best. If I wanted original disks for an old legacy Amiga that is missing disks, I *can* buy them retail. Of course, God only knows who actually gets the money in such transactions, for all I know the rightful rights holders may not see a dime and "real" versions of WB/KS are often nothing more than copies of copies.

Should I want to be a legal beagle and download WinUAE and then purchase the ROM images and the disk images, what are my options? Limited, as this thread shows :/

I'm well aware of Amiga Forever, and it's a hell of a product that I do highly recommend, but... If a guy could simply buy digital copies of ROM's and the disk images, we'd be in a far better state. Some people simply have no need for the pre-rolled Amiga Forever experience, such as these Pi dudes - being able to buy the bare essentials in a digital form would be so nice.

Just part of the unmitigated legal trainwreck that is everything Amiga for the past nearly 20 years, I suppose. I'm still quite pleased that Hyperion included them in a past recent OS4 update for my SAM 440.

One hysterical point I often think of is how some fervent anti-piracy people here will scream bloody murder if you even suggest downloading something like ROM's/disk images *if* you have already paid for them, all the while they wouldn't blink twice if someone suggested torrenting a copy of Windows if a person was unable to find their OEM Windows disc or keyfile :)

gaula92
09-05-2012, 03:34 AM
I once bought an Amiga500 (well, my parents did) and later an Amiga 1200. Period.
Since then, I have downloaded the kickstart ROMS hundreds of times, literally.

every time I want to run an UAE version on Linux or other OSEs, and everytime I want to softboot my Amiga1200 or my Minimig, I don't even look for the kickstart ROMS I downloaded time ago: I just go to TBP or other sharing site and download EVERY version of it in a TOSEC pack with includes even betas.
I have NEVER paid for something like the kickstart ROMS dumps and never will: they are mine to do whatever I want with them.

And this is for the idiots defending the vultures gettnig paid for selling dumps of kickstarts ROMS: f**K you :D The dumps are EVERYWHERE and they can be dowloaded on a click for free. Fight that, you retarded.

inoel
09-05-2012, 03:56 AM
Do you believe they own the copyright, or do they just have a license? Their website implies the latter, but some of their efforts to actually enforce the copyright imply the former.



Thanks. It's been a real labor of love, and it's great to see it paying off.


hi they have a license from gatway i remeber they did an interview with retrogamingradio years ago !
http://www.retrogamingradio.com/ they talked a lot
about this! email the shows host Shane R. Monroe
and see what he thinks about this

Forcie
09-05-2012, 04:26 AM
Heh, sort of how I see it myself. I figure I've paid for it, hmm (A1200, A3000, A2000 x2, A4000, OS4, and Amiga Forever) 6 or 7 times already, I've got no qualms leeching it off TPB, which I am completely unashamed to say I did recently when building a new UAE machine, solely because couldn't find my AF disc with the ROM's/Images.


I dumped the kickstart images of my A500 and A1200 back in.. the late 90's I think, when emulators like Fellow for MS-DOS started being pretty useable.

Pretty much all Amiga emulators back then contained Amiga software and instructions how to dump your kickstarts in the "how to get started" readme sections. (Don't they still? I think at least WinUAE has transrom distributed with each release). A PD disk with a terminal program, null modem, and then that little hurdle is solved forever. I still have my dumps, and I have not worried about that issue for about.. 15 years? If I should lose them, I would not hesitate a minute to download them though. After all, it is software that I have paid for and am in my full right to use, and that goes for all other Classic owners too.

Art
06-10-2013, 03:06 PM
Hi Guys, First post!!

Baffles me why people just don't grab them off a torrent site like the rest of the free world does.
That's all good until you want to include it in a free legitimate distribution.

It's discouraging to see this wasn't resolved :(
I have approached Colanto via email regarding a license for Kickstart v1.3
for an App Store (iOS) distribution of UAE bound to a single licensed game disk.

There is an app in there now called "Defender Of The Crown",
which initially got me excited, but further investigation reveals
that it's bundled Kickstart image has been modified to remove some
Commodore copyright information, suggesting there is no agreement in place to use it.

Unfortunately, I put too much work into the project before looking into this.
An App Store distribution is really the only way any contribution from me can
be demonstrated to the wider Amiga community, since iOS is my weapon of choice.
It looks like it will be a long time, if ever AROS can run a 68000 Amiga,
and today's mobile platforms are still limited in the type of Amiga they can emulate at speed.

I still have my original Kickstart chip too :) Pity about the rest of the Amiga it came from !
Cheers, Art.

bloodline
06-10-2013, 04:49 PM
Hi Guys, First post!!


That's all good until you want to include it in a free legitimate distribution.

It's discouraging to see this wasn't resolved :(
I have approached Colanto via email regarding a license for Kickstart v1.3
for an App Store (iOS) distribution of UAE bound to a single licensed game disk.

There is an app in there now called "Defender Of The Crown",
which initially got me excited, but further investigation reveals
that it's bundled Kickstart image has been modified to remove some
Commodore copyright information, suggesting there is no agreement in place to use it.

Unfortunately, I put too much work into the project before looking into this.
An App Store distribution is really the only way any contribution from me can
be demonstrated to the wider Amiga community, since iOS is my weapon of choice.
It looks like it will be a long time, if ever AROS can run a 68000 Amiga,
and today's mobile platforms are still limited in the type of Amiga they can emulate at speed.

I still have my original Kickstart chip too :) Pity about the rest of the Amiga it came from !
Cheers, Art.
If you just need the kickstart to boot the emulator, as I assume your game will take over the "hardware" once everything is up... An AROS build should be usable!

Ezrec
06-10-2013, 06:33 PM
AROS m68k *does* support 68000 Amigas.

Who led you to believe it doesn't?

And with the new CDROM filesystem (AROS licensed), there is no longer any legal reason not to include the AROS m68k ROM with your for-pay game bundle.

Please contact me: jason dot mcmullan at google's mail service, for specific issues if you can't get AROS m68k to work with your emulator.

Art
06-10-2013, 08:02 PM
That is good news, and thanks for the replies.

as I assume your game will take over the "hardware" once everything is up.
Do you mean the difference between a filesystem and track loading disk?
Forgive me, but it's been a while.
The game I had in mind runs from a filesystem disk, but if that's a problem
there are plenty of other games out there. I don't think aquiring license to use
one of them is going to be a problem.

there is no longer any legal reason not to include the AROS m68k ROM with your for-pay game bundle

It's a free distribution if it happens, and any contribution from me is open source.
A paid app would (ethically for me) would have to be largely my own work.

AROS m68k *does* support 68000 Amigas.
Who led you to believe it doesn't?
Well I've read a bit, and also tried a few AROS boot images,
but none so far have worked. I got the last one directly from the AROS site.
(AROS Vision) I think it was the latest package. How much chip RAM does it want from the Amiga?
Maybe it's problem that the UAE for mobile devices floating about doesn't have a CD-ROM op system,
but I suspect the emulated Amiga is too old looking at the specs on the AROS site.
I have no fast RAM, and There's no way I'll have 8Mb chip RAM.

It's the same UAE that has been ported to Sony PSP, Dreamcast, GP2x, etc.
and has all of the source for those platforms still present.

I'll have another dig around for an appropriate boot image.

Ezrec
06-10-2013, 08:09 PM
It's the same UAE that has been ported to Sony PSP, Dreamcast, GP2x, etc.
and has all of the source for those platforms still present.

You will need to use both ROM images for AROS to boot:

kickstart_rom_file=aros-amiga-m68k-rom.bin
kickstart_ext_rom_file=aros-amiga-m68k-ext.bin

Art
06-10-2013, 08:28 PM
You will need to use both ROM images for AROS to boot:

kickstart_rom_file=aros-amiga-m68k-rom.bin
kickstart_ext_rom_file=aros-amiga-m68k-ext.bin

Thanks,
it seems I can have up to 2Mb chip RAM, no fast RAM.

Two ROMS? Has that been done with an A500?

Ezrec
06-10-2013, 08:33 PM
A500: I'm still playing around with 74LSxxx logic to correctly decode my 27C800 EEPROM in my A500, but it works fine in E-UAE/WinUAE with a 68000 CPU.

Art
06-10-2013, 08:38 PM
A500: I'm still playing around with 74LSxxx logic to correctly decode my 27C800 EEPROM in my A500, but it works fine in E-UAE/WinUAE with a 68000 CPU.

I am aware it works in WinUAE.
I think the source getting around for mobile devices is more limited than that.
I don't see any options for anything other than 68000, or A500.
It looks stripped down, because there is an option for up to 8Mb chip RAM,
but the A500 (Agnus, or whomever is responsible) won't support it.

Art
06-10-2013, 08:49 PM
I did find this in the project... is the AROS ROM supposed to be on a disk.adf file?

It could just be referring to the old Kickstart disk supplied with early Amigas.



/*
* UAE - The Un*x Amiga Emulator
*
* A "replacement" for a missing Kickstart
* Warning! Q&D
*
* (c) 1995 Bernd Schmidt
*/


Then later,,,


void init_ersatz_rom (uae_u8 *data)
{
write_log ("Trying to use Kickstart replacement.\n");





write_log ("You need to have a diskfile in DF0 to use the Kickstart replacement!\n");
….
/* a kickstart disk was found in drive 0! */
write_log ("Loading Kickstart rom image from Kickstart disk\n");
/* print some notes... */
write_log ("NOTE: if UAE crashes set CPU to 68000 and/or chipmem size to 512KB!\n");



Cheers, Art.

Ezrec
06-10-2013, 08:51 PM
No, that is the *ancient* Kickstart Replacement (no connection to AROS) that was just a trivial trackloader.

AROS m68k is a 1M ROM image, in two parts:

0x00E00000 = aros-m68k-amiga-ext.bin
0x00F80000 = aros-m68k-amiga-rom.bin

deadwood
06-10-2013, 10:59 PM
Initially AROS ROMs were not working with "old" UAE/E-UAE ports while they worked with WinUAE. The reason was that AROS ROM required serial port to be working in the emulator. Maybe this has change since then, but I would check if your emulator has that working.

Here is a patch that added the support to Janus-UAE:

http://sourceforge.net/p/janus-uae/code/640/

Art
06-11-2013, 12:15 AM
Don't tell me that :O I've had a busy day!

I installed WinUAE, and verified that AROS does boot some track loading
disks with a stock Amiga, as long as it has some RAM other than chip RAM.

Soooooo... I've just had success implementing slow RAM using some other
UAE source from the net, and the existence of the new RAM is verified by
Workbench.
It seems the source used for mobile devices IS indeed stripped down.

It shouldn't be too difficult to load the extended ROM to the new address.
I'm going to have to at least try now...

psxphill
06-11-2013, 05:13 AM
A500: I'm still playing around with 74LSxxx logic to correctly decode my 27C800 EEPROM in my A500, but it works fine in E-UAE/WinUAE with a 68000 CPU.

Is there a reason you can't use this? Does it use different addresses to the 3.9 roms?

http://web.archive.org/web/20111018133241/http://cosmosamiga.blogspot.com/2010/03/kickstart-1mo-a500-i.html

If you want to make the board look nicer then this is another alternative.

http://web.archive.org/web/20100403152630/http://cosmosamiga.blogspot.com/2010/03/kickstart-1mo-a500-ii.html

Alternatively an a500+ already has a 42 pin socket AFAIK.

Terminills
06-13-2013, 05:37 AM
Is there a reason you can't use this? Does it use different addresses to the 3.9 roms?

http://web.archive.org/web/20111018133241/http://cosmosamiga.blogspot.com/2010/03/kickstart-1mo-a500-i.html

If you want to make the board look nicer then this is another alternative.

http://web.archive.org/web/20100403152630/http://cosmosamiga.blogspot.com/2010/03/kickstart-1mo-a500-ii.html

Alternatively an a500+ already has a 42 pin socket AFAIK.

He's got the parts at least some of them to do the 1 meg rom(I sent him the sockets when I bought 100 of them). Not sure where he's at but iirc he's trying to get it working first then the adapers. :P

Amiga_Nut
06-13-2013, 08:35 AM
I don't believe the pi has enough horsepower to adequately emulate an amiga without alot of dropped frames, skipping sound and so forth, but I could be wrong... If there was an optimized aros distro just for PI, it may be able to emulate classic apps without problems, but I'm not sure it would deal well with very demanding aga games and so on...

From extensive research I found WinUAE only needed Pentium III 600mhz for OCS/ECS and Superstardust AGA needed 850mhz. These were laptops running Win XP SP1 in 2007ish.

I'm not sure how fast the Pi is.

gunni
06-13-2013, 04:02 PM
From extensive research I found WinUAE only needed Pentium III 600mhz for OCS/ECS and Superstardust AGA needed 850mhz. These were laptops running Win XP SP1 in 2007ish.

I'm not sure how fast the Pi is.

my openpandora emulates the Amiga quite decently (not sure what its like at default 600mhz I'm overclocked to 800mhz), the pi runs at 700mhz as standard and is also overclockable so I imagine if the pandora version of uae was ported to pi (different ARM version) it would be quite usable.

bloodline
06-13-2013, 04:08 PM
my openpandora emulates the Amiga quite decently (not sure what its like at default 600mhz I'm overclocked to 800mhz), the pi runs at 700mhz as standard and is also overclockable so I imagine if the pandora version of uae was ported to pi (different ARM version) it would be quite usable.
The Pi actually runs on a dynamic clock, between 700Mhz and 1Ghz depending on demand. My newest pi is running stable at 1.1Ghz :)

gunni
06-14-2013, 04:12 PM
The Pi actually runs on a dynamic clock, between 700Mhz and 1Ghz depending on demand. My newest pi is running stable at 1.1Ghz :)

I didn't know that... I assumed it stuck with whatever it was set at in the raspbian config file. 1.1Ghz is pretty good going! :)

Art
06-15-2013, 07:13 AM
I totally missed some of the content of some replies here.
Thanks, particulary Ezrec and deadwood. I am a little less dumb now :)

If there's a world shortage of 42 pin sockets a broken Capcom system board
of the right family would ensure you never need one again.
Not sure which system, but it is driven by 68000, looks like an Amiga,
and ran Street Fighter II. Unfortunately, I gave up the remains of mine
so that someone could revive their board.

42 pin EPROMs I do have, but I think they are mask EPROPMs of the same nature
as a real Kickstart chip, and of no use to anyone for Amiga projects.
I actually still own Street Fighter II ROMS, and can say OK in MAME when it asks! :D

Are Amiga chips of use to anyone? Or can at least identify them?
I can't identify a 40 pin one, I thought it was a Kick, but it's dated 1991.
which makes little sense???

COMMODORE - AMIGA
390979-01
(c)1991 V2-04 37-175
9141XD001

I know that I have an A500 or A500+ Denise.

One curious one is a 20 pin DIL IC with Commodore's logo on it dated 1989.

Another one has some unremarkable numbers, and the "PROTO" printed on a line
of it's own. You'd love that to be an Amiga, but I really think that's from Arcade board.

Can a chip marked with "CIG" instead of "CBM" be commodore?
Because then a few of them 1984, 1996.

Art
06-23-2013, 06:22 AM
It can be done :)
If it's an old UAE, it needs a new Kickstart slot, serial port, and floppy drive, in that order.

haywirepc
06-23-2013, 11:55 AM
From extensive research I found WinUAE only needed Pentium III 600mhz for OCS/ECS and Superstardust AGA needed 850mhz. These were laptops running Win XP SP1 in 2007ish.

I'm not sure how fast the Pi is.

With what settings? I've always found it needed 2ghz+ to be smooth...

AGA games like superstartdust aga run best with 2.4 ghz+

Maybe thats just me, I didn't ever tweak settings very much...

Havie
06-23-2013, 12:34 PM
I hate to bring this thread back on track but surely the answer for Eben is this:

http://www.amigaforever.com/news-events/af-essentials-android/

If they can release kickstart ROMs then either they have the right, they know someone who gives them the right or they are doing it anyway?:argue:

slaapliedje
06-23-2013, 02:32 PM
There is a post here; http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=64438 So try Hyperion for the kickstart roms as well as Cloanto.

slaapliedje

Art
06-23-2013, 08:50 PM
I hate to bring this thread back on track but surely the answer for Eben is this:

http://www.amigaforever.com/news-events/af-essentials-android/

If they can release kickstart ROMs then either they have the right, they know someone who gives them the right or they are doing it anyway?:argue:

It appears they do, but I don't see how the distribution method would work for the Raspberry Pi :(
Selling it the way they are for Android is a very tidy approach for them,
but not every platform makes it possible to regulate that way.

iOS is one of them.
They say they are working on a distribution method for iOS,
but the dist method for Android won't work because iOS programs can't share each other's files.
(not that I don't have ideas)...

The problem I see with Raspberry Pi distribution is how do they restrict the
files they provide to the user they are intended for?

I guess the usual Windows distribution makes no allowance for this anyway..
the ROMs are encrypted with a rather simple routine that can be decoded
by just about any version of UAE nowadays...