You know, CUSA is right about one thing

[runequester]

I am going to don my fireproof suit for this one

The way forward for "amiga" in my opinion, would be very close to what they are touting (but with the bonus of actual results, rather than fapping about on the internet)

Linux distribution with amiga-like UI parts added to it.

This assumes pouring some serious effort and money into the desktop environment to make it slick and nice. There's some options out there that could be used as springboards.

Advantages:
Hardware support. Linux supports more or less every bit of hardware out there, whereas AROS supports a fairly narrow (but rapidly expanding) range. Morph supports even less, and OS4 of course only runs on a few specific items.
And at the moment, it seems the only way we're going to get multiple core support, access to tons of RAM etc.

Architecture support. Linux runs on pretty much anything, whether its x86, powerPC, ARM, 68K or stranger stuff.

Application support. Lack of modern software is a serious limit to some of the current options. While some recompiling might be needed here and there, to look nice in the desktop environment, there'd be a wealth of modern, compatible options available right off the bat.
This also covers modern file systems etc.

Corporate support. Linux has a ton of corporate weight behind it, pushing development. While they would have no interest in the "amiga" UI, we'd still benefit from their kernel developments, etc.




Would it pass the "purity" test? Well, no. It's not a commodore product running on 68K. But it'd be as much amiga as morph or os4, and it'd actually have a way forward.


Thoughts? Flames? Hatred?

[nicholas]

Amithlon.

[redrumloa]

We shall see. I am not interested in the official new Commodore Amiga at this time, but that could change. I am somewhat interested in their new C64x or whatever it is called, simply for the case design.

I don't see them surviving long term and I only see minor interest coming from the Kommunity, but who knows. We shall see. Brand name does hold strong nostalgia value for a lot of people and there is not necessarily anything wrong with that, in and of itself.

[Franko]

Nah... the NatAmi would be the closest thing to a modern day Amiga, Linux and all that sort of stuff should stay on PCs and MACs where it belongs... :)

CUSA are more than welcome to build and sell new PCs just don't call them Amiga or C64 and everything would be hunky dorey... :)

[runequester]

Maybe I didn't explain right:

I dont think CUSA will be the company to pull this off.
The idea itself is sound though. That was my point


Nah... the NatAmi would be the closest thing to a modern day Amiga, Linux and all that sort of stuff should stay on PCs and MACs where it belongs... :)

CUSA are more than welcome to build and sell new PCs just don't call them Amiga or C64 and everything would be hunky dorey... :)

You know you can run linux on your amiga right? ;)

Though I dont think any distros are up to date these days.

And yes, I am excited about natami as well :)

[commodorejohn]

But what's the point? Linux is a fine operating system, but if all it takes for an OS to be "Amiga" is to put a Workbench-reminiscent skin on it, why bother at all? This is what I don't understand about the whole thing - is the appearance really all that matters? How can that be, when Workbench's appearance wasn't even consistent across versions? If you want Linux, that's great, but just settle for Linux and put your nostalgy skin on it - don't try to fool yourself pretending that it has anything to do with the Amiga operating system.

I'm really pretty much a fan of WB3.1, but I can at least understand AROS because they're trying to adapt the internals as well as just the appearance. This? What's the point?

[runequester]

But what's the point? Linux is a fine operating system, but if all it takes for an OS to be "Amiga" is to put a Workbench-reminiscent skin on it, why bother at all? This is what I don't understand about the whole thing - is the appearance really all that matters? How can that be, when Workbench's appearance wasn't even consistent across versions? If you want Linux, that's great, but just settle for Linux and put your nostalgy skin on it - don't try to fool yourself pretending that it has anything to do with the Amiga operating system.

I'm really pretty much a fan of WB3.1, but I can at least understand AROS because they're trying to adapt the internals as well as just the appearance. This? What's the point?

The thing is.. the amiga OS is dead.
AROS, Morph and OS4 aren't any more amiga than windows 95 was.
They look and feel like the amiga UI, and imitate some of its peculiarities. In that case, might as well do it on cheap, modern hardware, with good application support and with a way forward.


Fan of 3.1 myself too. Never saw a real need for the later post-Commodore stuff for my classic machine.

[WolfToTheMoon]

This was suggested way back in 1999 when gateway was still the owner.

Had it been done in 99', we would be having entirely different type of discussions now and community would be bigger by several orders of magnitude.

[runequester]

I think you are right. 98 or 99 was about last hour of amiga, as a commercial venture.


Completely unrelated, but when did Motorola stop making 68K processors?

[nicholas]

I think you are right. 98 or 99 was about last hour of amiga, as a commercial venture.


Completely unrelated, but when did Motorola stop making 68K processors?

They still do (Well, as Freescale)

[Franko]

Maybe I didn't explain right:

I dont think CUSA will be the company to pull this off.
The idea itself is sound though. That was my point




You know you can run linux on your amiga right? ;)

Though I dont think any distros are up to date these days.

And yes, I am excited about natami as well :)

Nope, didn't know that but I do now... :)

I think my Mac uses a version of Linux (OS 10.5) and if that's anything to go by Linux is a big No No for me (thousand of files and gawd knows how much disk accessing, seems very inefficient to me...) :)

[commodorejohn]

The thing is.. the amiga OS is dead.
AROS, Morph and OS4 aren't any more amiga than windows 95 was.
Aren't they? I dunno about MorphOS and OS4, but according to Wikipedia AROS is a straight-up open-source reimplementation of AmigaOS 3.1 - whether you like it as an operating system or not, that's way more to do with the Amiga than a re-skinned Linux. If that's not enough to count as far as you're concerned, and you really do feel that AmigaOS is dead, stop pretending. Linux isn't going to be Amiga-related no matter how much work you put into changing the wallpaper.

[trekiej]

I hope this is not to far off topic.
How much could Hyperion port of AOS4 to use the Linux Kernel, if possible?

[Colin_Camper]

But what's the point? Linux is a fine operating system, but if all it takes for an OS to be "Amiga" is to put a Workbench-reminiscent skin on it, why bother at all?

I'm really pretty much a fan of WB3.1, but I can at least understand AROS because they're trying to adapt the internals as well as just the appearance. This? What's the point?

I'm with you 100%
Now, if CommodoreUSA did a distro/fork of haikuOS - I could understand that. Or if they came to do a deal with Morphos - also I could go with that. However Linux slapped on a PC with a 75C sticker - No thanks! That's so lame.

I've said it before but it falls on deaf ears;

AmigaOS skin on Linux =

CommodoreOS. Cool - allows us to run Chrome, Ink, Gimp, Open Office, Java, LAMP etc

+

A fairly obscure but MODERN OS inspired by AmigaOS - like Morphos or Haiku

This way we get a core community around the hardware/software that can grow due to being based on a modern OS.

The third way, which I think is much more likely, is that Minimig and (hopefully) Natami will just keep on getting better and faster and there will be a new resurgence of Classic AmigaOS. :-)

[mbrantley]

The thing is.. the amiga OS is dead.
AROS, Morph and OS4 aren't any more amiga than windows 95 was.


Really? Thing is, when I'm using AmigaOS 4.1 I feel in every way that I am using the Amiga OS -- a living continuation still in active development and getting better, not some dead thing. And when I'm on my MorphOS and AROS machines, I feel the spirit of the Amiga operating system in them.

Windows 95? Bah.

[WolfToTheMoon]

I've said it before but it falls on deaf ears;

AmigaOS skin on Linux =

CommodoreOS. Cool - allows us to run Chrome, Ink, Gimp, Open Office, Java, LAMP etc

+

A fairly obscure but MODERN OS inspired by AmigaOS - like Morphos or Haiku

Syllable is the best obscure OS, IMHO...

Well, a thought for the MorphOS team/users... a x86 port of MorphOS and then you would not be "forced" to buy old Macs anymore, but up-to date hardware with a up-to date OS(Commodore OS)... So you can have your cake and eat it too :)

[kolla]

I think my Mac uses a version of Linux (OS 10.5) and if that's anything to go by Linux is a big No No for me (thousand of files and gawd knows how much disk accessing, seems very inefficient to me...) :)

You're all wrong. OSX uses Darwin, a BSD, not Linux. Huge difference. Go read it up.

[runequester]

I'm with you 100%
Now, if CommodoreUSA did a distro/fork of haikuOS - I could understand that. Or if they came to do a deal with Morphos - also I could go with that. However Linux slapped on a PC with a 75C sticker - No thanks! That's so lame.

I've said it before but it falls on deaf ears;

AmigaOS skin on Linux =

CommodoreOS. Cool - allows us to run Chrome, Ink, Gimp, Open Office, Java, LAMP etc

Yeah, it doesn't have to be called amiga, workbench etc.
Just a linux distro with the familiar UI etc.

[EDanaII]

The difference between Linux and AmigaOS is the difference between this:
COPY ALL QUIET

and:
cp -R -v

It's the difference between:
Prefs:

and:
/etc

It's the difference between:
S:Startup-Sequence

and:
./init.d/rc 3

and it's the difference between:
Dev:

and:
/mnt/dev


Of all the examples I've posted, which are easiest for any newb to understand?

It ain't Linux, I promise you that. :)

[Franko]

You're all wrong. OSX uses Darwin, a BSD, not Linux. Huge difference. Go read it up.

Can't be bothered, as long as these old macs can access the internet it doesn't really matter to me what it runs on... :)

[Colin_Camper]

You're all wrong. OSX uses Darwin, a BSD, not Linux. Huge difference. Go read it up.

No, you're wrong actually. From the perspective of Workbench, all Unix operating systems are pretty much the same. I've used System V and BSD and believe me, there is no startup-sequence!

[Duce]

Not sure what an Amiga skin/theme on Linux buys anyone, nor how that makes it an Amiga. it's no more of an Amiga than the WinXP mini-itx PC sitting on my desk, which boots directly into WB 3.x the minute I start it. Still doesn't run any Amiga stuff natively without a UAE or other emulator variant. It's an emulation box with C= decals and an Amiga skin on Linux. While is might seem like an elegant solution for some, it's hardly carrying the Amiga torch into the future. If stickers, a skin and an emulator = the future of Amiga, I'm awfully worried if this is called progress. If I am missing something with this concept, please - correct me. All this has been possible for many years.

Not to mention the business model aspect. I'd buy a bone stock generic PC from Bestbuy and install linux, a WB skin, and an emulator for likely a fraction of the price, lol.

[Franko]

The difference between Linux and AmigaOS is the difference between this:
COPY ALL QUIET

and:
cp -R -v

It's the difference between:
Prefs:

and:
/etc

It's the difference between:
S:Startup-Sequence

and:
./init.d/rc 3

and it's the difference between:
Dev:

and:
/mnt/dev


Of all the examples I've posted, which are easiest for any newb to understand?

It ain't Linux, I promise you that. :)

Gotta agree with you 100% on that, I've looked at the commands on these Macs and their bloody awful even the built in docs make as much sense as me when I've forgot to take me meds... :)

(I reckon whomever wrote these ruddy things was either a robot or a total nutcase... :))

You'd need an Enigma machine just to try and figure out how to get the help page to show up... ;)

[WolfToTheMoon]

While is might seem like an elegant solution for some, it's hardly carrying the Amiga torch into the future. If stickers, a skin and an emulator = the future of Amiga, I'm awfully worried if this is called progres

There has hardly been any progress in AmigaOS land since 85'...

It's still troubled by pretty much the same faults.

Amiga torch burned out long ago.

If you want to make a new, modern AmigaOS with all the features of a modern OS, you're bound to brake every backwards compatibility and introduce a new kernel anyway. So, by your standards, it would not be amiga even if done by Carl Sassenrath himself, or Hyperion, would it?

[dammy]

We shall see. I am not interested in the official new Commodore Amiga at this time, but that could change. I am somewhat interested in their new C64x or whatever it is called, simply for the case design.

I am the opposite, I really not too interested in the C64x nor WB5. I can see C=USA being a major life line to the C64 community though and I wish them and the C64 community well.

As far as the Amiga series, not a lot of public information has been released on it so it would be hard to judge it. Which is understandable since the C64x's launch is their primary task at the moment. C64x's launch has to be done right so anything else is a secondary thought at best.

I don't see them surviving long term and I only see minor interest coming from the Kommunity, but who knows. We shall see. Brand name does hold strong nostalgia value for a lot of people and there is not necessarily anything wrong with that, in and of itself.

The Kommunity is indeed far too small for any commercial company to survive on, there is no doubt about that. There seems to be a market for the past, but one has to begin creating new content to keep people's interest (and hardware sales) up. That will be the key to long term survival, content creation.

[EDanaII]

C=USA is effectively giving us a Volkswagon, calling it a Porsche and expecting us all to care.

The _AmigaOS_ is the only thing today left of Amiga that has any interest to me at all.

[runequester]

Not sure what an Amiga skin/theme on Linux buys anyone, nor how that makes it an Amiga. it's no more of an Amiga than the WinXP mini-itx PC sitting on my desk, which boots directly into WB 3.x the minute I start it. Still doesn't run any Amiga stuff natively without a UAE or other emulator variant. It's an emulation box with C= decals and an Amiga skin on Linux. While is might seem like an elegant solution for some, it's hardly carrying the Amiga torch into the future. If stickers, a skin and an emulator = the future of Amiga, I'm awfully worried if this is called progress. If I am missing something with this concept, please - correct me. All this has been possible for many years.

Not to mention the business model aspect. I'd buy a bone stock generic PC from Bestbuy and install linux, a WB skin, and an emulator for likely a fraction of the price, lol.

Is there a non emulation option present today? At some point, they all have to bring out the emulation in any event, once the app starts banging the hardware.

Heck, the minimig (the only current option that actually runs native amiga stuff) is emulation as well, but on the hardware level, rather than software.



The question is.. where is the amiga torch being carried today? Who carries it?
Who actually has a plan for anything resembling the future, let alone catching up to the past 10 years ?

[Argo]

Thoughts? Flames? Hatred?

I'd go the Apple route and take a look at BSD. Like Dragonfly BSD. Build an Workbench window mangager and add Amiga features (cli commands, file structure, ram disk, etc.). Start with a specific PC hardware config (CPU, RAM, Graphics card, etc) and go from there.

[dammy]

C=USA is effectively giving us a Volkswagon, calling it a Porsche and expecting us all to care.

I'll bite, as far as the C=USA Amiga series is concerned, what makes you say that?

[runequester]

I'd go the Apple route and take a look at BSD. Like Dragonfly BSD. Build an Workbench window mangager and add Amiga features (cli commands, file structure, ram disk, etc.). Start with a specific PC hardware config (CPU, RAM, Graphics card, etc) and go from there.

a lot of the same advantages yeah. You'd still get the benefits of a much larger range of hardware and applications available.

[WolfToTheMoon]

C=USA is effectively giving us a Volkswagon, calling it a Porsche and expecting us all to care.

The _AmigaOS_ is the only thing today left of Amiga that has any interest to me at all.


You have it wrong...

Linux=Porsche
Amiga= VW
:roflmao:

But seriously, and leaving any C=USA discussion out of this topic... what would be your idea for making whatever Amiga-related OS a modern OS with all the features one takes for granted today?

If we leave out Linux, then you're bound to run into similar problems faced today by much more modern OSes out there that are forced into obscurity by complete lack of software(not hardware, edited).

So, you've spent all that time and money and you're pretty much back where you started.

Linux was chosen by HP, Google, Nokia, Intel... It's the obvious choice. It WORKS!

[kolla]

No, you're wrong actually.
No, I'm not.

From the perspective of Workbench, all Unix operating systems are pretty much the same. I've used System V and BSD and believe me, there is no startup-sequence!

So because you're ignorant, I'm wrong? Sheesh.

[EDanaII]

I'd go the Apple route and take a look at BSD. Like Dragonfly BSD. Build an Workbench window mangager and add Amiga features (cli commands, file structure, ram disk, etc.). Start with a specific PC hardware config (CPU, RAM, Graphics card, etc) and go from there.

That would be my preference, Argo. Get rid of those cryptic commands, replace it with a more intuitive structure, use Amiga based file systems (RDB) so that if a drive changes it doesn't go from hda to hdb (or C: to D:), etc, etc, etc... give it the re-engineering that Linux never got.

[runequester]

That would be my preference, Argo. Get rid of those cryptic commands, replace it with a more intuitive structure, use Amiga based file systems (RDB) so that if a drive changes it doesn't go from hda to hdb (or C: to D:), etc, etc, etc... give it the re-engineering that Linux never got.
weeeell, I dont know if BSD is less cryptic :)

However, there's no reason things couldn't change to be simpler and more sensible. Would just have to recompile app's that expect things to be in a specific spot, but thats likely not a big deal.

To be honest, in this day and age, most things are GUI anyways. One of the nice things about amiga back in the day was that while it was a hybrid CLI/GUI system, it worked perfectly well just from the GUI.

[Colin_Camper]

Syllable is the best obscure OS, IMHO...

Well, a thought for the MorphOS team/users... a x86 port of MorphOS and then you would not be "forced" to buy old Macs anymore, but up-to date hardware with a up-to date OS(Commodore OS)... So you can have your cake and eat it too :)

I wouldn't be upset if they used Syllable, either.

[mingle]

Actually Porsches are descendants of VWs...

The first incarnation of the 911 was a saw-off old Beetle...

[WolfToTheMoon]

I wouldn't be upset if they used Syllable, either.

Nor would I, but it just isn't realistic.

Leo hasn't dismissed the possibility of a BSD based OS on a later date.

[kolla]

That would be my preference, Argo. Get rid of those cryptic commands, replace it with a more intuitive structure, use Amiga based file systems (RDB) so that if a drive changes it doesn't go from hda to hdb (or C: to D:), etc, etc, etc... give it the re-engineering that Linux never got.

Linux is getting the re-engineering, /dev/hd* is already gone, and instead of /dev/sd*, you can use /dev/disk/by-{id,label,path,uuid}/*. For example, on this eeepc I'm using here now, first partition on internal flash drive is /dev/disk/by-id/scsi-SATA_ASUS-PHISON_SSDSOQ2882259-part1, or just /dev/disk/by-label/SYSTEM.

[commodorejohn]

Is there a non emulation option present today? At some point, they all have to bring out the emulation in any event, once the app starts banging the hardware.
Isn't that the whole point of the Kickstart replacement, to get AROS running natively on 68k Amigas? That seems to be going pretty well, last I checked. And even putting aside the whole "emulation versus native execution" runaround, you can have an Amiga-inspired or even directly Amiga-based OS running on a non-68k architecture - that's still more Amiga-related than a re-skinned Linux.

The question is.. where is the amiga torch being carried today? Who carries it? Who actually has a plan for anything resembling the future, let alone catching up to the past 10 years ?
And this is the point I keep coming back to, where I wonder why "new Amiga effort" has to equal "catching up to the horsepower of commodity Intel hardware" and "taking the Amiga into the future" has to mean "making it exactly like newer operating systems." If you want something that's exactly like what everybody else is using, that's easily had: it's called an x86 PC. Load it up with Windows, Linux, or OSX according to your personal preference, and bam! you're keeping up with the Joneses. I don't see how abandoning every single thing that made the Amiga the Amiga except for its GUI look would count as "carrying the Amiga torch" into the future.

[EDanaII]

@ dammy

Look at my previous posts in this thread. :) cp -R -v vs. COPY ALL QUIET toss into the argument the RDB that preserves logical file names even when drive order changes. I'm unaware of anything Linux for that (could be wrong though). Add in Amiga boot times (any flavor) vs. Linux booting or even responsiveness when loading an app.

You and I have had this discussion before, Randy, in my view AmigaOS is a re-engineered Unix and it was redesigned in a way that lost much of the legacy architecture of Unix that Linux still clings to today.

Which is why I'm a supporter of Anubis. Lose all the legacy architecture that Linux is saddled to and I am so there. :)


@ Wolf to the Moon

I got one word (phrase) for ya, Wolf: Legacy System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_system). Linux is still saddled with a lot of "junk" that should have been cleaned out ages ago. What I'm agreeing with Argo on is the idea of using BSD as a foundation but losing a lot of the legacy crap that all Unixes are stuck with. So, keep the kernel, but replace commands like cp -R -v and replace them with COPY ALL QUIET. I'd also love to lose ext4 and replace it with something like an RDB that keeps your drives from reshuffling all over the place if you insert new hardware. It is in areas like these that Linux (and Windows) still sux. I'm also for adopting a number of other Amiga like paradigms that just make sense.


@ Runequester

Which is why I don't support adopting it _wholely._ See my response to Wolf. :)


@ kolla: Linux is getting the re-engineering, /dev/hd* is already gone, and instead of /dev/sd*, you can use /dev/disk/by-{id,label,path,uuid}/*. For example, on this eeepc I'm using here now, first partition on internal flash drive is /dev/disk/by-id/scsi-SATA_ASUS-PHISON_SSDSOQ2882259-part1, or just /dev/disk/by-label/SYSTEM.

If it preserves logical drive information like the RDB, then wonderful. :) But are the changes being added as flexible as the RDB? Just wondering...

[brownb2]

The difference between Linux and AmigaOS is the difference between this:
COPY ALL QUIET

and:
cp -R -v

Actually you've set it to verbose... perhaps you should do

man cp

What is the man command on the Amiga?


It's the difference between:
Prefs:

and:
/etc
What about env and envarc? Perhaps user prefs should be separate and in a secure user directory...


It's the difference between:
S:Startup-Sequence

and:
./init.d/rc 3
You really wouldn't want users messing too much in /etc/init.d/ as this is mostly system services. User startup is /home/<user>/.profile (file)



and it's the difference between:
Dev:

and:
/mnt/dev
Really this is DH0:Dev/ and /mnt

You could do a Linux alias or symlink to to make /mnt "Dev" if you really wanted.


Of all the examples I've posted, which are easiest for any newb to understand?
Linux especially if you need help (man, info and auto complete), and if you don't want to break your system (being a newb). IMHO newbs don't use command lines ;)

[Kronos]

Actually Porsches are descendants of VWs...

The first incarnation of the 911 was a saw-off old Beetle...

Meeeeeeep wrong !!!

The 1st Porsches were based on VW-tech, but the 1st 911 (which came much later) has nothing in common with a VW (they share some similarities, like the air-cooled-boxer-enginge in the back, but thats were it ends).

[EDanaII]

Eh, yer kinda missing my point, Brownb2, but as I have to jet out of here (I'm already late), I'll try and address it tomorrow.

[Franko]

Slightly off topic here, but I've just found a cool piece of fluff in me belly button... :)

[AmigaNG]

I just going to repost a message I made on a simular topic not too long ago so it might not make a perfect sense but its get the point across.
-------------

I have to ask why some of the people are here, if you really want a true next generation Amiga OS that hold on to nothing of its past and works differently and modern then go and join BeOS or QNX community's both OS have been compared to what a modern AmigaOS should perhaps be, but that's the point if you change so much of the OS is it really Amiga any more and I know where going into a topic that has been covered 100's of times what makes an Amiga, an Amiga?

But to me the reason I'm still here is because of way the OS is layout and works, its just simple, I like the drag screen affects, I like access to my ram disk and I like a lot of other little touch here and their that make it an Amiga experiences, some of the legacy apps like deluxe paint and scalos I still love using and yes the classic games as well.

All I want is a OS that works the same way my current Amiga works but it can not only play the classic stuff but can do some more modern things like play DVDs, handle the new media formats, surf the net, and bring back some of the fun I use to have with computers that sadly disappeared the day I had to move to windows. (saying that however windows7 I must admit to it being the best thing I have ever used from Microsoft so far, why it took them so long to deliverer something that just works I will never know. ie still crap however :) thank god for firefox!) . To me AmigaOS4 offers the closest thing to my dream, I still would like to see a bit more work put in making it more backwards compatible maybe we will in a future update.

[trekiej]

@ Franko lol

I am not against using another Open Source Kernel for further development. In the end I believe we would still have Aros,Amiga-UAE, and others running on top of it for retro compatibility. Maybe we need make a consortium(?) like ClusterUK had said a while back, If I remember right.

A short list of contenders could be.
1.Haiku
2.BSD
3.Linux
4.Aros ( if some one wants to add smp,etc)
5.Syllable
6.ReactOS ( lol please do not kill me )
7.Darwin

[Tension]

AROS is a straight-up open-source reimplementation of AmigaOS 3.1

How do I get one of those Facepalm thingies to show up here??

[commodorejohn]

How do I get one of those Facepalm thingies to show up here??
Hey, I said "according to Wikipedia." I quote:
AROS Research Operating System (AROS - pronounced "AR-OS") is a free and open source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_open_source_software) implementation of the AmigaOS 3.1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AmigaOS) APIs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_programming_interface).
If this is not the case, feel free to enlighten me.

[runequester]

A lot of people feel strongly about this obviously.

I guess the question that would need answering first is: What makes it an amiga /to you/ ?

[WolfToTheMoon]

IMHO, the best non-mainstream option is Syllable...

slightly less non-mainstream

Syllable on top of Linux kernel(Syllable was designed to make this as easy as possible)

[Argo]

As far as the 3.1 API, but did 3.1 have USB? Some parts of AROS were used in Amiga OS 3.9. So, AROS just isn't a from scratch complete copy of 3.1. It is more than just the reimplementation of the Amiga OS 3.1 API.

[runequester]

A few specifics:


As far as RAM disk, you can mount /dev/shm and use it pretty much exactly like the RAM disk of old.


As far as boot speed goes, I dont know. My PC boots in some 20 seconds. My friends netbook boots in 10. Thats pretty much the same as my 3.1 A1200.

[Tension]

Hey, I said "according to Wikipedia." I quote:

If this is not the case, feel free to enlighten me.

The Facepalm wasn't directed at you, just at the statement itself.

The thing doesn't run Amiga programs without an emulator :lol:

Any time AmigaOS on x86 is mentioned, there's always one **** who says:
"We already have Amiga on x86, it's called AROS"

What a load of bollocks.

[WolfToTheMoon]

The Facepalm wasn't directed at you, just at the statement itself.

The thing doesn't run Amiga programs without an emulator :lol:

Any time AmigaOS on x86 is mentioned, there's always one **** who says:
"We already have Amiga on x86, it's called AROS"

What a load of bollocks.


Both MorphOS and AOS4 emulate 68K to run "Amiga software". I don't see your point, frankly...

And if you mean that any new project OS must run "Amiga software" natively, then we can all pack up and go home.

[Franko]

A lot of people feel strongly about this obviously.

I guess the question that would need answering first is: What makes it an amiga /to you/ ?

Hmmm... changing the question again... ;)

Oh well, since you asked, to me it's as simple as...

The Hardware & Software... :)

Considering when It all first began it has the best OS of any machine past or present... :)

It helped to bring affordable home computing to the mainstream and encouraged folk to use their imaginations and write their own software/games (how many of the big game companies that made a ton of dosh got there start from folk writing stuff at home for the Amiga...) :)

The simple fact that even if you only had 2Meg of Chip RAM you can achieve things with it that no PC or Mac could ever do with 2Meg of memory... :)

The simple fact that even after all these years all of us are still here talking about it and using it in one form or another is testament to why the Amiga always has been and always will be something that's just that wee bit different & special in comparison to anything a PC or Mac is or ever shall be... :)

Be happy and live with what we were given by the late great Jay Miner and appreciate it for what it was and still is and always will be... :)

[Tension]

Both MorphOS and AOS4 emulate 68K to run "Amiga software". I don't see your point, frankly...

And if you mean that any new project OS must run "Amiga software" natively, then we can all pack up and go home.

If I want to run an emulator, I'll just stick to WinUAE on XP thankyou very glad.




Mines the Superdry one...

[Franko]

then we can all pack up and go home.

Wish you would to be honest... :) (I'll even help you pack... :))

Drat... forgot you won't be reading this as I'm on your ignore list... :roflmao:

[Tension]

@Franko

Aaaaah, didn't realise it was that c=nut.

[Iggy]

The thing is.. the amiga OS is dead.
AROS, Morph and OS4 aren't any more amiga than windows 95 was.
They look and feel like the amiga UI, and imitate some of its peculiarities. In that case, might as well do it on cheap, modern hardware, with good application support and with a way forward.


Fan of 3.1 myself too. Never saw a real need for the later post-Commodore stuff for my classic machine.


I can't agree with this. All three of those OS' attempt to maintain compatibility with 3.1 and MorphOS even goes as far as reimplementing Warp.

A skinned version of Linux would still be Linux. And if you think of the three NG OS' as just emulation then you don't really understand how they work. CUSA's Workbench5 may appeal to those of you that are diehard retro fans, But if I wanted complete legacy compatibility and enhanced feature I'd wait for the Natami.

As I don't need complete compatibility, MorphOS is fine for me. You say it isn't Amiga? In some ways that's a good thing. The "real" AmigaOS4 isn't quite as polished, doesn't perform as well, and only runs on underpowered , overpriced hardware.

And I'd still take that before a skinned Linux or X86 implementation.
olisher

[runequester]

I can't agree with this. All three of those OS' attempt to maintain compatibility with 3.1 and MorphOS even goes as far as reimplementing Warp.

We might be talking about different definitions, but they all end up resorting to emulation at some point. Some app's run natively, but most do not, and likely never will.



As I don't need complete compatibility, MorphOS is fine for me. You say it isn't Amiga? In some ways that's a good thing. The "real" AmigaOS4 isn't quite as polished, doesn't perform as well, and only runs on underpowered , overpriced hardware.

And I'd still take that before a skinned Linux or X86 implementation.
olisher

What works for you works for you, mate :)

What I'd love is something that has the feel of an amiga UI, but with new, modern capabilities.

I agree that perfectly mirroring the past isn't the way to go. My 1200 does a pretty good job at running the amiga OS :)

[runequester]

Be happy and live with what we were given by the late great Jay Miner and appreciate it for what it was and still is and always will be... :)

See, I dont want the amiga to be more like a PC. I want my PC to be more like an amiga :)

[Daedalus]

Actually you've set it to verbose... perhaps you should do

man cp

What is the man command on the Amiga?


Try

help copy

to read about the copy command and all its options ;) Or just

copy ?

to get a template of possible arguments

As regards the rest of the discussion, I think the idea is that if you need emulation to run old applications, then at least make it transparent, that is, it can run transparently but the APIs it uses are native and therefore it takes advantage of the APIs running on PPC, x86, ARM or whatever. That's how OS4 and MorphOS do it, and it works. They both feel Amiga-ish, even though they're not developed by the original Commodore. If you need to run a separate version of the OS in a window, with its own layout of menus, gadgets and what not, it's not transparent, and you might as well run UAE.

[orb85750]

Nah... the NatAmi would be the closest thing to a modern day Amiga, Linux and all that sort of stuff should stay on PCs and MACs where it belongs... :)

CUSA are more than welcome to build and sell new PCs just don't call them Amiga or C64 and everything would be hunky dorey... :)

+1

[Iggy]

See, I dont want the amiga to be more like a PC. I want my PC to be more like an amiga :)


I don't think we're quite as far apart in opinion as you may think. But read the last post. This is how we're making our PCs more like the Amiga and the end result is better than straight emulation.

[ElPolloDiabl]

You forgot ARIX and Anubis OS. No momentum though.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/arix/

[runequester]

I don't think we're quite as far apart in opinion as you may think. But read the last post. This is how we're making our PCs more like the Amiga and the end result is better than straight emulation.

yeah, we're probably pretty close to the same thing in the end :)

[XDelusion]

I wish that Haiku would add that old Amiga SKIN back in that BeOS used to have.

[eb15]

In the beginning an Amiga was both novel hardware and novel software combined. I don't think anyone other than MorphOS, OS4, and AROS as open source, has actually implemented the Amiga user interface semantics and design into their modern OS which is why people keep asking for an AmigaNG project instead of living with whatever was handed to them in the usual linux distros, haiku, syllable, macos, windows, etc., etc., etc. Its always been possible under the unix systems to replace the shell with another program if that was the fix for user friendlyness it could be done to hide all the terse shell unixisms. On the other hand folks have constantly tried to put unix shell semantics into Amiga OSes, as the fish disks will demonstrate with "cshells","ls", and quickly ported command line programs, etc. etc. etc.

Anyone starting a "new" Amiga computer company only has a few options depending on the time they need to deliver product to remain solvent with their licensing fees and carrying costs. Basing on a linux distro and commodity hardware is probably among the quickest and easiest to do it at this time, just be sure you don't break anything important by your customizations... Since CUSA just seems to be an Americanized marketing face for some unknown Chinese product manufacturer(s) I don't think they have the luxury of either an R&D budget or the time to buy and develop Hyperion or MorphOS or AROS product into a modern secure OS or license them on the conditions they be "improved enough" meet certain verifiable security standards expected to compete in the wider consumer marketplace with Linux/Android, OSX, or Win7. by the ship date.

[trekiej]

When Aros 68k and the Kickstart Bounties are done, I believe we will have more to toward the goal of improving the Amiga.

[persia]

I don't think Workbench 5 is really a C=USA product, it's looking more and more like Anubis reborn. With Wayland on the horizon and backed by canonical there is likely no longer any reason to worry about X being replaced.

[runequester]

I don't think Workbench 5 is really a C=USA product, it's looking more and more like Anubis reborn. With Wayland on the horizon and backed by canonical there is likely no longer any reason to worry about X being replaced.

Given their track record, I am assuming that CUSA aren't actually making anything, so I think you'd be correct that IF workbench 5 actually exists, it's an existing package, rebranded and maybe with some minor tweaks.

[TheBilgeRat]

I am somewhat interested in their new C64x or whatever it is called, simply for the case design...

Don't forget its supposed to be cherry blue switches in the keyboard too! I think that design of all of them is the coolest and at least the best attempt at something unique.

[EDanaII]

@ brownb2:Actually you've set it to verbose...

Yes, brown, I know what I set it to. If there were a QUIET option, I would have set it to that, but since the cp command is quiet by default, it really doesn't have that option does it? That said, I wasn't comparing Amiga commands with Linux commands based on exactness. I was comparing them based on intuitiveness. And COPY ALL QUIET is much more intuitive than the Linux option.

What is the man command on the Amiga?

Someone else has pointed that out to you already, so I'll just say this: even that is more intuitive than the Linux option. :) I remember encountering the man command ages ago and wondering what males had to do with a DOS command. Stupid? Maybe... intuitive? Definitely not.

You really wouldn't want users messing too much in /etc/init.d/ as this is mostly system services. User startup is /home/<user>/.profile (file)

You're not supposed to mess with the S:Startup-Sequence either, so that's not the point. The point is, I can look at the file and infer its purpose just by looking at it. That's not as easy with init.d .

Since the topic at hand (for me) is about re-engineering Linux, I don't have a problem with a corresponding Amiga like system having a "Work:User/Fred" directory and a corresponding "Work:User/Fred/StartUp" directory. Which can then be assigned to "ActiveUserStartUp:" or similar. The User-startup files that reside in S: could be moved there.


You could do a Linux alias or symlink to to make /mnt "Dev" if you really wanted.

I could, but I believe Amiga Assign[ments] are much more robust than an alias or a symbolic link.

Linux especially if you need help (man, info and auto complete), and if you don't want to break your system (being a newb). IMHO newbs don't use command lines ;)

Every expert was a newb in the beginning. Why make the task of moving from newb to expert harder than it needs to be?

[Dandy]

As far as the 3.1 API, but did 3.1 have USB?
...



I still don't get why people think USB support has to be part of the OS.
On my A4kPPC OS 3.9 is my main system and USB 2.0 highspeed with Deneb (before that Spider II) and Poseidon has been working like a charm now for years.
Why do you think it has to be incorporated in the OS?
Just because Windows and Linux have it that way?

[runequester]

I still don't get why people think USB support has to be part of the OS.
On my A4kPPC OS 3.9 is my main system and USB 2.0 highspeed with Deneb (before that Spider II) and Poseidon has been working like a charm now for years.
Why do you think it has to be incorporated in the OS?
Just because Windows and Linux have it that way?

Hey mate. Its 2011. /Everything/ is USB, even most keyboards and mice nowadays.

Are there any conceivable advantage to not having USB as part of the OS ?

[Khephren]

Linux does not bare much resemblance to the Amiga, just skinning it won't help. It works in a fundamentaly different way (and in my opinion is less elegent, which is why desktop takeup has been slow).

If we call a linux machine an Amiga, we might as well throw in the towel right now.

If it commodore had survived, perhaps they could of bought BeOs, like apple bought nextstep. I think BeOs had more in common with AmigaOS than linux ever will.

[prowler]

There are already a small number of Amiga themes for some of the desktop environments out there so you could always pick one of them up.

If it means that much to you and you want to be able to say 'I built it myself', you can start here http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/

It will still be just Linux though.

[DAX]

@Runequester
You think purity is a 68K processor with some "game console like" raster graphic chipset in?
Things evolve and the way they did it's not for anyone here to decide or change (history cannot be changed). Thing happens, and steer the events in one direction or another.
In time the failure of the 68K line (or rather, the switch Motorola did from 68K to PPC) and also the failure of raster chips sets similar to arcade Jamma games, led amiga to adopt different technology, the OS also evolved in several ways (including "ramifications") .
Today after lawsuits and what not, it keeps on going from where it left and who knows where it will land.

One thing is for sure: if it isn't the next step in the above history (Mos for example is certainly a part of the Amiga history, and of course there is no need to mention OS4 here), OR, has nothing to do with a single piece of HW (Natami for example might relate to this) or line of source code (this is the realm of OS4, not in all, but in part yes) of the original stuff, it just has nothing to do with Amiga, and no it is NOT as much as Amiga as AmigaOS or Mos (not by a long shot).
It's just something that cannot be described any better than a "masquerade".

We already have something called Linux which was adopted by many companies as their industrial solution, we just don't want to place an Amiga sticker over it and say "you see, we won in the end, Amiga is popular again!"
How delusional would that be?

[Kesa]

Slightly off topic here, but I've just found a cool piece of fluff in me belly button... :)

Really? I sometimes find bits of carrot in mine... :confused:

[Franko]

Really? I sometimes find bits of carrot in mine... :confused:

Yeah, but if you squinted your eyes and looked at it from just the right angle it looked like a wee three legged turtle... :)

[gertsy]

What the fluff or the carrot? I'm confused...
What does Graham say: http://www.feargod.net/fluff.html

[Franko]

What the fluff or the carrot? I'm confused...
What does Graham say: http://www.feargod.net/fluff.html

Wow... that was fascinating, cheers Gertsy... :)

Reckon Kessa's Carrots must be the pink variety and maybe he's just a bit short sighted and can't tell the difference, could be awkward at dinner time though... :)

Reminds me of my toenail collection I used to have as kid which I kept in matchboxes, course we didn't have home computers back then but swapping toenail clippings with your mates was quite fun back then... :)

Once had this really old clipping from my granny, it was curly and hard as a brick and really, really yellowey, got a good swap for it though with one of my mates for six of his ones... :)

[Argo]

I still don't get why people think USB support has to be part of the OS.
On my A4kPPC OS 3.9 is my main system and USB 2.0 highspeed with Deneb (before that Spider II) and Poseidon has been working like a charm now for years.
Why do you think it has to be incorporated in the OS?
Just because Windows and Linux have it that way?

Same with networking, printer support, monitor drivers, firewire, sata, ....

Though I do admit, when buying a computer I do like it to just work when I get it home with out having to buy a bunch of additional cards for USB, Sata, firewire, networking, ....

[amigappc]

As I said on other threads or forums, for Classic lovers Natami + Aros 68k could be perfect fun machine, mini media center, full compatible with old soft and games etc...

Hoping that any Amiga platform (PPC OS, CUSA linux desktop theme experiments) will ever become mainstream is foolish.

Natami with reasonable speed, surf abilities and preferably sold in custom casing (so all units delivered on market are the same) would be best Amiga successor for me.

You can flame me for this. but this is my opinion.

[Amiga_Nut]

The thing is.. the amiga OS is dead.

So is Amiga as a machine. There is nothing stopping me running Rocket Ranger PC EGA via original disks on my Windows PC. All these so called Next Gen Amigas can NOT do anything of the sort with a couple of original 3.5" Cinemaware floppy disks. They all use a version of UAE to run the game code to support OCS/ECS/AGA too just as a PC running Windows does.

NG Amiga = can't physically load the game disks, don't have custom chips to run code natively
PC/Mac = can't physically load the game disks, don't have custom chips to run code natively

A new Amiga has to emulate custom chips in FPGA at the very least like Natami/Minimig etc.

Amiga is DEAD, it is now a classic vintage antique machine, wonderful as it is, there is no new Amiga let alone Amiga OS.

CUSA is selling PCs. MOS/OS4 has bugger all to do with my A1000/12000 on my desk hardware wise and needs the same 'help' as a PC to make up the gap via UAE.

End of story.

[Daedalus]

So is Amiga as a machine. There is nothing stopping me running Rocket Ranger PC EGA via original disks on my Windows PC. All these so called Next Gen Amigas can NOT do anything of the sort with a couple of original 3.5" Cinemaware floppy disks. They all use a version of UAE to run the game code to support OCS/ECS/AGA too just as a PC running Windows does.

NG Amiga = can't physically load the game disks, don't have custom chips to run code natively
PC/Mac = can't physically load the game disks, don't have custom chips to run code natively

A new Amiga has to emulate custom chips in FPGA at the very least like Natami/Minimig etc.

Amiga is DEAD, it is now a classic vintage antique machine, wonderful as it is, there is no new Amiga let alone Amiga OS.

CUSA is selling PCs. MOS/OS4 has bugger all to do with my A1000/12000 on my desk hardware wise and needs the same 'help' as a PC to make up the gap via UAE.

End of story.

Hmmm... Well, OS-friendly software works transparently with the new OSs, whereas old, hardware-banging software won't. Same can be said for a lot of old PC software - there's an awful lot from Windows 3.1 days which won't work under XP. and as for the floppy disks, it might be true, but you'll probably have issues with sound, some graphics cards are dropping support for some old VESA modes at this stage, and I've come across several motherboards which lack a floppy controller, meaning you can't load up those old disks. Most, even if they do support floppy, don't support 5.25", so you're stuck then as well... You'll find most people use DOSBox on Windows for running the old stuff, same as UAE on OS4.

There is more to the Amiga than the old hardware-banging games. The new machines (OS4, MOS etc.) can still run system-friendly apps from 1985 transparently... Just because it's a teeny tiny market doesn't mean it's dead. That might be your opinion, and that's fine - don't buy an Amiga-NG machine if you see it that way. But the OS is till in commercial development, new hardware is appearing - it's less dead in that sense than it was 10 years ago.

[jorkany]

I don't know about in Europe, but here in USA CUSA seems to already be more popular than AROS, MOS and OS4 combined. I see them mentioned on more tech sites, and even have friends alerting me to this "new Commodore" they've stumbled across.

I just think it's interesting. What happens if CUSA really does start with the TV ads? Snuggies are now available in the corner drugstore.

[Franko]

Odd folk some Amiga users are, the ones who claim Amiga is dead I mean just cos it's old... :rolleyes:

Do you tell your granny or grandad "Oi... old yin... you must be dead cos your really old and they don't make them like you anymore..."

Seems some Amiga users have a morbid fascination for dead things... :eek:

How do you use your miggies then, do you get the wee boy from the film "The Sixth Sense" to talk to them or something... :)

[Colin_Camper]

No, I'm not.



So because you're ignorant, I'm wrong? Sheesh.

Actually, you are both ignorant and arrogant.

[Colin_Camper]

Nor would I, but it just isn't realistic.

Leo hasn't dismissed the possibility of a BSD based OS on a later date.

I agree that it is not realistic for C-USAs mainstream offering. Absolutely!

I think that they are very realistic in taking a very good Linux distro and skinning it CommodoreOS and shipping this with their hardware.

However, I can't see the harm in creating something more Amiga-like that can be optionally installed that many in the community could get behind.

[Iggy]

Odd folk some Amiga users are, the ones who claim Amiga is dead I mean just cos it's old... :rolleyes:

Do you tell your granny or grandad "Oi... old yin... you must be dead cos your really old and they don't make them like you anymore..."

Seems some Amiga users have a morbid fascination for dead things... :eek:

How do you use your miggies then, do you get the wee boy from the film "The Sixth Sense" to talk to them or something... :)

Damn Franko,
By that definition we're both dead!
I love old Amigas and have been considering purchasing a 1200 with an eye on adding a 48Mhz '030 or 50Mhz '060 accelerator (for fun).

And I don't care if some of you don't think my NG machine qualifies as an amiga (hey the name of my OS of choice is MorphOS, no Amiga trademark there).
NG OS' aren't meant to be a linear continuation of the Amiga system. That system is locked into hardware that is very long inthe tooth. all we're trying to do is use 3.1 compatibility (w/o 100% hardware compatibility) as a base to build NEW system on.

You see I use little to no legacy software,

[Franko]

Damn Franko,
By that definition we're both dead!

I think I passed away last summer when I first got onto the net, cos if this internet place actually existed in real life then the world must have gone completely loopy loo judging by some of the things I read here... :)

(pokes meself in the eye... no reaction... yup, I'm a stiff... :))

[r06ue1]

I don't see the point really. If you want a Linux machine, just download and install it on a PC, then download a Amiga like UI (or make one yourself).

Windows is garbage and bloated
Linux is better but getting bloated also
Mac OS is probably the best OS out there right now but is still not Amiga OS.

I still believe Amiga (OS) can have a future but it has to take a Linux, open source route to get back into the mainstream. Make it freely available to download, small footprint, lightweight and super fast and people will be attracted to it. Doesn't matter if it runs on x86, PPC or ARM, let the end user decide what hardware they want to run it on just as Linux does. AROS is the closest to accomplishing this but there are too many competing products and the official OS for the Amiga is still closed to the public. Doubt that will change and Amiga will one day be a distant memory.

Amiga as a hardware product is dead.

[ElPolloDiabl]

I think I passed away last summer when I first got onto the net, cos if this internet place actually existed in real life then the world must have gone completely loopy loo judging by some of the things I read here... :)

(pokes meself in the eye... no reaction... yup, I'm a stiff... :))
For more loopy stuff check out the creation vs evolution debate on youtube.

[dammy]

I agree that it is not realistic for C-USAs mainstream offering. Absolutely!

I think that they are very realistic in taking a very good Linux distro and skinning it CommodoreOS and shipping this with their hardware.

However, I can't see the harm in creating something more Amiga-like that can be optionally installed that many in the community could get behind.

I believe the C64x's WB5 is going to be a fairly straight forward Linux distro with some tweaks. I'm more interested in the follow on OS for their Amiga series.

[Khephren]

[QUOTE=Franko;611171]I think I passed away last summer when I first got onto the net, cos if this internet place actually existed in real life then the world must have gone completely loopy loo judging by some of the things I read here... :) [/QUOTE

....And some of the things you post!

[Franko]

[QUOTE=Franko;611171]I think I passed away last summer when I first got onto the net, cos if this internet place actually existed in real life then the world must have gone completely loopy loo judging by some of the things I read here... :) [/QUOTE

....And some of the things you post!

Dunno, some of things I say makes sense in my little world, and both of me are unanimous in that... :)

[runequester]

Linux does not bare much resemblance to the Amiga, just skinning it won't help. It works in a fundamentaly different way (and in my opinion is less elegent, which is why desktop takeup has been slow).

If we call a linux machine an Amiga, we might as well throw in the towel right now.

If it commodore had survived, perhaps they could of bought BeOs, like apple bought nextstep. I think BeOs had more in common with AmigaOS than linux ever will.

Elegance sadly never even factors into whether people will buy it or not. Otherwise DOS wouldn't have last a month past 1985.

As far as whether linux is easy to use, the best thing to do is to ask people with android phones what they think.

[Khephren]

Android is based on Linux, but is not linux. And I own an Android phone, but I prefer the experience of my N900 (which is also based on Linux, but the two don't operate even remotely similar, and the N900 still relies to heavily on the terminal in some cases).

As for DOS, PC's didn't really take off for none geeks in the home until the rise of Win95, then everyone and his dog had one. I may have prefered workbench, but windows95 was a massive step up from DOS in the usability stakes, people dumped DOS as soon as a half decent GUI could run their software.

The Amiga was a good combo of OS and Hardware elegance/power, and with the A500, a good price. That OS elegance is why we still use it isn't it?

Linux seems to be going two ways, either remain pure linux, and technical, or having to emulate the look and feel of windows. Recent Ubuntu is a case in point, high OS overheads, and looks and feels like a brown version of windows.

[Colin_Camper]

I'm more interested in the follow on OS for their Amiga series.

So am I. However if they base this on Linux I don't see the point. I didn't see the point with Anubis, either. However I do see the point in breaking the 3.1 API completely - I just don't think there is enough resource to start something from scratch 0 Hence HaikuOS

[runequester]

Android is based on Linux, but is not linux. And I own an Android phone, but I prefer the experience of my N900 (which is also based on Linux, but the two don't operate even remotely similar, and the N900 still relies to heavily on the terminal in some cases).

It uses the linux kernel. "linux" is a kernel. The rest is interchangeable parts.


As for DOS, PC's didn't really take off for none geeks in the home until the rise of Win95, then everyone and his dog had one. I may have prefered workbench, but windows95 was a massive step up from DOS in the usability stakes, people dumped DOS as soon as a half decent GUI could run their software.


And yet, neither amiga nor apple ever posed a serious challenge to wintel. Remember, win95 came out after Commodore was gone.


The Amiga was a good combo of OS and Hardware elegance/power, and with the A500, a good price. That OS elegance is why we still use it isn't it?

Agreed completely.


Linux seems to be going two ways, either remain pure linux, and technical, or having to emulate the look and feel of windows. Recent Ubuntu is a case in point, high OS overheads, and looks and feels like a brown version of windows.

Nyeh. I dont recall the last time my machine actually exceeded 1 gig of RAM in use, and it ran decently if a bit pokey on 512 megs.

But then, I had an old laptop running DSL, which clocked in at 50 megs, including web browser, word processing, music player etc. Ran completely in RAM.


So maybe the definition of "bloated" that people throw around means something else than what I think it means :)

[jorkany]

Android is based on Linux, but is not linux.
Android absolutely is Linux. Applications however run in a Java VM (which is running in a Linux process).

You might want to read this:
http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/fundamentals.html

[Digiman]

Hmmm... Well, OS-friendly software works transparently with the new OSs, whereas old, hardware-banging software won't. Same can be said for a lot of old PC software - there's an awful lot from Windows 3.1 days which won't work under XP. and as for the floppy disks, it might be true, but you'll probably have issues with sound, some graphics cards are dropping support for some old VESA modes at this stage, and I've come across several motherboards which lack a floppy controller, meaning you can't load up those old disks. Most, even if they do support floppy, don't support 5.25", so you're stuck then as well... You'll find most people use DOSBox on Windows for running the old stuff, same as UAE on OS4.

There is more to the Amiga than the old hardware-banging games. The new machines (OS4, MOS etc.) can still run system-friendly apps from 1985 transparently... Just because it's a teeny tiny market doesn't mean it's dead. That might be your opinion, and that's fine - don't buy an Amiga-NG machine if you see it that way. But the OS is till in commercial development, new hardware is appearing - it's less dead in that sense than it was 10 years ago.

Hmmm but Amiga is a machine from Commodore, and nobody else produced any real Amigas since as far as hardware goes. If you take the games away what have you left? Nothing of note running on expensive PPC/old Apple PPC hardware.

I see why there is division here. But if MorphOS and AOS4 are really running on Amigas then you don't need ADF files and UAE emulators. How is it more Amiga than WIN7/OSX/AROS/LINUX running on a DELL PC + UAE? :confused:

[Digiman]

Odd folk some Amiga users are, the ones who claim Amiga is dead I mean just cos it's old... :rolleyes:

Do you tell your granny or grandad "Oi... old yin... you must be dead cos your really old and they don't make them like you anymore..."

Seems some Amiga users have a morbid fascination for dead things... :eek:

How do you use your miggies then, do you get the wee boy from the film "The Sixth Sense" to talk to them or something... :)

Well if you tell me which chain of shops I can pop into and buy brand new boxed CD32,A1200/A4000 I guess by HIS definition he is wrong.

I'm with A_N 100%, Amiga=Sardust floppy disk loading computer=production stopped 14 years ago. :)

MOS runs on crusty old Macs, how can it be Amiga when it has a filthy Apple badge on the case? :roflmao:

I have a real Amiga and Wintel+UAE.....I'm not missing out on anything by posting this from Chrome not Timberolf on OS4 or spending £1000 on SAM460 *bingo*

[runequester]

Hmmm but Amiga is a machine from Commodore, and nobody else produced any real Amigas since as far as hardware goes. If you take the games away what have you left? Nothing of note running on expensive PPC/old Apple PPC hardware.

I see why there is division here. But if MorphOS and AOS4 are really running on Amigas then you don't need ADF files and UAE emulators. How is it more Amiga than WIN7/OSX/AROS/LINUX running on a DELL PC + UAE? :confused:

On top of that, if that's really the definition of what makes them "amiga", there's no reason a project like wine couldn't exist for amiga stuff, adopting native API's to run amiga app's.
I somehow doubt getting Final Writer or whatever to run is harder than WOW or MS Office.


EDIT: Yes, classic amiga is certainly dead. That doesn't mean we don't use it. My 1200 gets more use than any other computer in our home. But commercially, its dead as rocks.

[Digiman]

On top of that, if that's really the definition of what makes them "amiga", there's no reason a project like wine couldn't exist for amiga stuff, adopting native API's to run amiga app's.
I somehow doubt getting Final Writer or whatever to run is harder than WOW or MS Office.

Doesn't FW run natively in AROS? Isn't Amiathlon doing just that too? (genuine q's)

@general crowd - I'm all for choice in OS, and not here to change others opinions so enjoy your chosen OS/Hardware but nobody will change my mind.

If Natami has floppy loading capability then for me it becomes a real Amigas as near as damn it matters. x1000/SAM/PPC MAC <> Amiga for me personally even with Catweasel etc. YMMV.

[Digiman]

EDIT: Yes, classic amiga is certainly dead. That doesn't mean we don't use it. My 1200 gets more use than any other computer in our home. But commercially, its dead as rocks.

I take it to mean dead as a newly purchasable product line for sale. It is a very active scene I agree, many of us still buy and use and repair classic Amigas yes and that will be for a long time which is great otherwise this game I am writing would be a waste of my time :)

[runequester]

Doesn't FW run natively in AROS? Isn't Amiathlon doing just that too? (genuine q's)

Stuff that doesn't hit the hardware runs natively most of the time. But so does MS Office running in Wine under OSX or Linux. No difference, no emulation.


If Natami has floppy loading capability then for me it becomes a real Amigas as near as damn it matters. x1000/SAM/PPC MAC <> Amiga for me personally even with Catweasel etc. YMMV.
well, the goal of natami is to be Amiga in the classic sense, so yeah, Im with you there :)

[JJ]

Both MorphOS and AOS4 emulate 68K to run "Amiga software". I don't see your point, frankly...

And if you mean that any new project OS must run "Amiga software" natively, then we can all pack up and go home.


wrong. system freidnly programs run 100% native in morphos

[brownb2]

Recent Ubuntu is a case in point, high OS overheads, and looks and feels like a brown version of windows.

A higher overhead thing is not a bad thing when you're talking about running it on machines thousands of times faster than an Amiga and infinitely more capable with multiple required services running like bluetooth, firewalls, watchdog services etc (or if you like Amiga emulators ;) ).

It's really apples and oranges.

[Franko]

It's really apples and oranges.

What about Banana's ??? :)

[runequester]

What about Banana's ??? :)

This isn't the atari forum ;)

[Franko]

This isn't the atari forum ;)

I thought Atari was mouldy old grapes... :)

[TheBilgeRat]

See, we never worried about Atari in the states ;D

"Atari? You mean like Yar's Revenge? They have a COMPUTER? Yikes!"

[runequester]

See, we never worried about Atari in the states ;D

"Atari? You mean like Yar's Revenge? They have a COMPUTER? Yikes!"
heck, in Denmark, I never knew anyone who had one. By the time I got my miggy in 92, they were well and gone.

[Khephren]

It uses the linux kernel. "linux" is a kernel. The rest is interchangeable parts.

And yet, neither amiga nor apple ever posed a serious challenge to wintel. Remember, win95 came out after Commodore was gone.

Nyeh. I dont recall the last time my machine actually exceeded 1 gig of RAM in use, and it ran decently if a bit pokey on 512 megs.

But then, I had an old laptop running DSL, which clocked in at 50 megs, including web browser, word processing, music player etc. Ran completely in RAM.


fair play about it being the kernel, i should know better. guess i meant your more standard gnu varieties.

As for not posing a threat, not in offices no. but in the home the Amiga was massive in europe, i know it wasn't as big in the states.

I still don't consider 512mb pokey, that's probably the Amigan in me ;) seeing as your threads have been so good recently, howabout a linux one?

[runequester]

fair play about it being the kernel, i should know better. guess i meant your more standard gnu varieties.
yeah, this is one area where the whole "GNU/Linux" thing actually becomes an important distinction :)


As for not posing a threat, not in offices no. but in the home the Amiga was massive in europe, i know it wasn't as big in the states.

Yeah, everyone I knew had them, but their parents had PC's.

I actually never realized how big Nintendo was in the US, until I moved over here. I only knew one or two kids who ever owned an NES.


I still don't consider 512mb pokey, that's probably the Amigan in me ;) seeing as your threads have been so good recently, howabout a linux one?

I think I've caused enough trouble for now :)

I'll think about it, but it might be outside the scope of the forum I guess.

[Dandy]

Hey mate. Its 2011. /Everything/ is USB, even most keyboards and mice nowadays.



This doesn't really answer my question.
B.T.W. - even USB keyboards and mice are reported to work like a charme with Poseidon - even on cold boot...



Are there any conceivable advantage to not having USB as part of the OS ?



Yes.
USB is in no way part of OS 3.9 - but nevertheless I have working USB 2.0 highspeed since years with my OS 3.9 system, while OS 4.x users still have to drink gallons of coffee while waiting for their data to get copied with USB 1.1 ...

[Dandy]

...
Though I do admit, when buying a computer I do like it to just work when I get it home with out having to buy a bunch of additional cards for USB, Sata, firewire, networking, ....



This may be valid if you go and buy a "mainstream machine".
But for my Amiga hobby I prefer to do it mostly myself - gives me satisfaction if I got it working myself in the end. There's no thrill for me if everything works out of the box. Boaring...

What did you do back when all that PC mobos had onboard were slots for all the cards (aside from the DOS beeper) and you needed to install a driver for each of them?
A card for the parallel- and the game port, a card for the serial interface, a floppy disk- and hard disk controller card, a graphics card, sound card, RAM card, ...

I bet you refused to touch a "computer" back then...
;-)

[Daedalus]

What did you do back when all that PC mobos had onboard were slots for all the cards (aside from the DOS beeper) and you needed to install a driver for each of them?
A card for the parallel- and the game port, a card for the serial interface, a floppy disk- and hard disk controller card, a graphics card, sound card, RAM card, ...

I bet you refused to touch a "computer" back then...
;-)

Don't forget about setting the address and IRQs on each of those cards using DIP switches or jumpers, and then tearing your hair out when it refused to boot, pulling them all out and starting again... Oh, the memories... ;)

[Dandy]

Don't forget about setting the address and IRQs on each of those cards using DIP switches or jumpers, and then tearing your hair out when it refused to boot, pulling them all out and starting again... Oh, the memories... ;)



LoL - yeah. And not to forget the endless driver installation orgies with a reboot after each installation...

[jorkany]

Oh, the memories... ;)
The Expanded memory and the Extended memory?

[psxphill]

What did you do back when all that PC mobos had onboard were slots for all the cards (aside from the DOS beeper) and you needed to install a driver for each of them?
A card for the parallel- and the game port, a card for the serial interface, a floppy disk- and hard disk controller card, a graphics card, sound card, RAM card, ...

I don't remember ever seeing a PC that was that bad, ISA graphics card & hard disk controller were the worst it got & even then it was bought as a complete system.

I don't miss those times that much, tweaking your config.sys & autoexec.bat so all the tsr's didn't conflict and you had as much ram left as possible.

These days I'm happy if I can plug something in and it works and the worst case is I need to google for a driver or a firmware update.

[JJ]

I used to know how to do all that, pushing as mcuh into extended memory so the base was as empty as possible and runniny the extra memory drivers, just to get doom or quake to run .


Wouldnt have a clue now , and thank god dont need to know

[TheBilgeRat]

I never bothered with the ISA days. Still was rocking my A1200, then went to a Mac clone. I didnt hit the windows boxes until PCI and plug and play was all the rage :).

[JJ]

this was in school

first pc i owned (which was was not ccurrent tech at the time) was a p2 mmx 200mhz, with a voodoo card that connected to the 2d card with a cable, and when 3d clicked in could hear the massicve relay kicking in

[runequester]

Yes.
USB is in no way part of OS 3.9 - but nevertheless I have working USB 2.0 highspeed since years with my OS 3.9 system, while OS 4.x users still have to drink gallons of coffee while waiting for their data to get copied with USB 1.1 ...

That just means the driver is crap for OS4. It has nothing to do with whether its included or not.

[Forcie]

If Natami has floppy loading capability then for me it becomes a real Amigas as near as damn it matters. x1000/SAM/PPC MAC <> Amiga for me personally even with Catweasel etc. YMMV.

Yes, Natami has a real floppy drive header onboard so you can connect a real floppy drive and boot from or read/write Amiga floppies.

[dammy]

I never bothered with the ISA days. Still was rocking my A1200, then went to a Mac clone. I didnt hit the windows boxes until PCI and plug and play was all the rage :).

I think I didn't have my first x86 (Celeron) till 1999. Think there was two ISA slots on the mobo but I was using AGP/PCI cards. Think it was a 233MHz and 128MB with Matrox AGP card. Huge jump from my frankenstien A500 that was tricked out and running CNet/UUCP.

[the_leander]

IMHO, the best non-mainstream option is Syllable...

Have you actually tried using it? It's horrible.

Sorry but if you're going the obscure OS route I'd have to go with Haiku, which actually has a decently sized user and developer base, not to mention is already very usable (certainly more stable than Zeta b2).


Syllable on top of Linux kernel(Syllable was designed to make this as easy as possible)

Haiku works quite nicely within a virtual environment too if that's your bag.

[tone007]

"Derp" is a syllable.

[KThunder]

Syllable is a fork of AtheOs! I followed AtheOs for a while and thought it looked pretty interesting, but development died. Syllable looks pretty cool, but Aros has past AtheOs by quite a ways, I'll have to check out Syllable a bit more.

[WolfToTheMoon]

Have you actually tried using it? It's horrible.

Sorry but if you're going the obscure OS route I'd have to go with Haiku, which actually has a decently sized user and developer base, not to mention is already very usable (certainly more stable than Zeta b2).



Haiku works quite nicely within a virtual environment too if that's your bag.

I've tried both Haiku and Syllable and I liked Syllable far more. Easier to nagivate, IMHO better GUI, faster OS.
I actually have it under Vbox together with AROS.

[KThunder]

Which do you think is more complete, syllable or Aros?

[Dandy]

I don't remember ever seeing a PC that was that bad, ISA graphics card & hard disk controller were the worst it got & even then it was bought as a complete system.



Of course the PCs back then were available as complete systems.
But mostly those were boxes with a basic config, e.g. just with floppy drive(s), 640 kB Ram and with a Hercules grapics card (monochrome).
If your computing needs grew, you either expanded your existing box or you could try to find a new box with the specs you needed at absurd prices.
From my own experience it was most of the time less expensive to expand the existing box.
(I'm talking about the period when the first 80386 computer hit the market at a price of roughly 3.000 DM in a basic config like described above, while I could get an A500 with a palette of 4096 colours and 8 Bit stereo sound onboard for 1.200 DM).



I don't miss those times that much, tweaking your config.sys & autoexec.bat so all the tsr's didn't conflict and you had as much ram left as possible.



Thankfully these times are gone for good.



These days I'm happy if I can plug something in and it works and the worst case is I need to google for a driver or a firmware update.



While I agree to a certain extent, I also regret the fact that if I don't have to open the box and tweak it to fit my needs I don't have the chance to get familiar with its internals.

Call me old-fashioned - but I never bought a compact stereo equipment - I always had my amp, turntable, cassette player and tuner as seperate units.
This way I could still use the rest of the equipment if one of the components died and needed repair or replacement.

For the same reason I prefer a big tower and a mobo with enough slots for cards, aside from ergonomic reasons.

If I had everything onboard I would have to replace the mobo in case the onboard video, networkability, sound, USB or what else died.
From my POV its easier just to replace the defective card...

[WolfToTheMoon]

Which do you think is more complete, syllable or Aros?


that's difficult to say and depends on what you mean more complete... AROS has more apps and devs, but Syllable is a more modern OS. Once Syllable gets some more devs and users, I can see it being a very popular non-mainstream OS. It's very stable, has all the modern features and is designed to be easy to port things from other POSIX OSes.

Mind you, Syllable Server edition might be even better - It's a small Linux distro(only CLI for now) which should, in future, have Syllable on top of it(work on that is currently stopped)

[the_leander]

I've tried both Haiku and Syllable and I liked Syllable far more. Easier to nagivate, IMHO better GUI, faster OS.
I actually have it under Vbox together with AROS.

Whereas I found Haiku every bit as quick and easier to navigate, but then I was a long time BeOS user. As far as GUI goes that's down to personal taste, I like the yellow tabs. Also BeOS/Haiku's OpenTracker is simply the only thing I've ever found on any OS that comes anywhere near Opus Magellen2 in terms of functionality and ease of use.

@KThunder AROS, by far.

Syllable also shares a near singular computing achievement of having less software than BeOS does.

[Dandy]

That just means the driver is crap for OS4.



Right...



It has nothing to do with whether its included or not.



I see this differently.
Wouldn't it be included in OS 4, I bet Poseidon would have been ported to OS4 long ago by others.
As it is, everyone was and still is waiting for the OS developers to do the task.

But they seem to prefer re-inventing the wheel by ignoring existing, established and well-prooven solutions instead...

A waste of time and resources, if you ask me...

[the_leander]

Right...

Clearly the OS4 solution is inferior.


I see this differently.
Wouldn't it be included in OS 4, I bet Poseidon would have been ported to OS4 long ago by others.

There has been that option on the table ever since it was made open source. The problem is that there is practically no-one outside of the people coding for OS4 itself who is capable of doing so apparently. As for why they chose to reinvent the wheel, I'd have to pick "religious reasons". It's part of both AROS and MorphOS, there is simply no technical reason to implement their own when there was a proven, serviceable stack available, indeed there is a whole host of reasons why having a shared stack and driverset would be a boon in a limited market like the Amiga's.


But they seem to prefer re-inventing the wheel by ignoring existing, established and well-prooven solutions instead...

A waste of time and resources, if you ask me...

Agreed 100%

[Iggy]

Clearly the OS4 solution is inferior.



There has been that option on the table ever since it was made open source. The problem is that there is practically no-one outside of the people coding for OS4 itself who is capable of doing so apparently. As for why they chose to reinvent the wheel, I'd have to pick "religious reasons". It's part of both AROS and MorphOS, there is simply no technical reason to implement their own when there was a proven, serviceable stack available, indeed there is a whole host of reasons why having a shared stack and driverset would be a boon in a limited market like the Amiga's.



Agreed 100%

Who has a clue why AOS4's developers do anything?
Tying sales of hardware to the OS, not using existing open, proven components, anything?
But hey, they're the 'real' AmigaOS, right?

[runequester]

Is the poseidon driver included in AROS or do you have to install it manually?

As far as Syllable, and Haiku, whats the range of hardware support available for those platforms?

[kedawa]

If I had everything onboard I would have to replace the mobo in case the onboard video, networkability, sound, USB or what else died.You could just disable the integrated part and install a card to take over its job, assuming you have a slot available. I've done this on mobos with nonfunctional IDE controllers and integrated video. USB, audio, and ethernet are no different.

[Terminills]

Is the poseidon driver included in AROS or do you have to install it manually?

As far as Syllable, and Haiku, whats the range of hardware support available for those platforms?

poseidon is included in Aros. For the most part you shouldn't have to do anything but trident is in the prefs drawer just in case.

[drwho]

EDIT: Yes, classic amiga is certainly dead. That doesn't mean we don't use it. My 1200 gets more use than any other computer in our home. But commercially, its dead as rocks.

This quote really does say it all.

I haven't paid too much attention to any new developments with the Amiga that post-date 3.1, since that represented the "end of the line" for me the Amiga I knew. I cant explain to anyone what I love about those original systems. Hardware, software, the whole thing.

The classic hardware architecture and the software that supported it, are for all intents and purposes, dead. I have no illusions that this will change.

That said, I still use my Amiga for all kinds of stuff. 68000 assembly language, c development, gaming, endless configuration, etc. I guess if it still does something you need, then it's still perfectly acceptable to cling to it until it no longer serves a purpose you can place value on.

It would have been nice if the entirety of the architecture from the failed Commodore franchise had been open sourced. Could you imagine what the community of hobbyists, many of which are hardware and software people, would be able to do with it?

[Dandy]

You could just disable the integrated part and install a card to take over its job, assuming you have a slot available.
...



I know - but that still would leave me with a half-broken motherboard.
I don't like to do my work on half-broken hardware - that's a no-go for me...

[CSixx]

I use mine