New PPC cards for OS4

[AndrewBell]

OS4 is close to being released. Some ex-amigans are interested in returning to the platform. Some current users want to upgrade but don't have the required hardware.

It's safe to say that we can forget about any new PPC cards from Elbox or ACK. The Blizzard and Cyberstorm will not be produced again either.

Also, due to the current legal action, existing products such as the SAM440 may never get a license for OS4.

Don't give up yet though. There is still some hope. I suggest asking ACube to produce an accelerator based on the SAM440. This may have to be a PCI card if the appropriate connectors are difficult to source.

Visit their site to register any interest you may have in this. Also, please spread the idea to other Amiga news sites, particularly if you are not a native speaker of English.

http://www.acube-systems.com/eng/contacts.php
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[guru-666]

want yes, believe, no.
Regardless I sent a message to ACube asking for one.

[AndrewBell]

guru-666 wrote:
want yes, believe, no.
Regardless I sent a message to ACube asking for one.


At this stage there is nothing to believe. They may say no straight away. On the other hand, if there is sufficient interest, they may decide to investigate further. We won't know if we don't ask.

It's a longshot, sure, but they are in the hardware business and they are targetting the Amiga market. I can't think of a better company to approach.
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[stopthegop]

Done

[HenryCase]

Good idea.

[motorollin]

Does OS4 even run on the SAM440?

--
moto

[AndrewBell]

motorollin wrote:
Does OS4 even run on the SAM440?

--
moto

No idea. UBoot runs on it, and ACube will be distributing/selling OS4, so I have a sneaking suspicion that there are plans for it to run on the SAM, if it doesn't already.
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[downix]

This would be faster than designing a new one. (http://www.sonnettech.com/product/crescendo_pci.html)

[JJ]

@ downix

but thats just a re-badged shark, I bet elbox will have something to say about that. You cant go around re-badging cards and selling them a lot cheaper :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[AndrewBell]

Those cards fit in a Mac CPU slot, which has not been implemented on the Amiga as far as I know.

My logic behind choosing the SAM is that it has on board Radeon, audio, ethernet, USB, SATA and everything else I would want to bring an Amiga into the modern era.

If (and I stress the if) it could be adapted to sit in a PCI slot, and read some data (keyboard, mouse, kickstart) through the Zorro bus, via the Mediator and PCI bus, then it could technically be called an accelerator for Classic Amigas, and it might possibly fit with the wording of Hyperions contract.

Of course, if it could actually drive the custom chips and control AGA display and Paula audio, even better. If it "merely" sits in a PCI slot and accepts a few input signals, I could live with that.
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[adonay]

Those cards fit in a Mac CPU slot, which has not been implemented on the Amiga as far as I know.

Not all some sonnet cards use PCI all ready like the one elbox wanted to rebadge :-p

[AndrewBell]

adonay wrote:
Not all some sonnet cards use PCI all ready like the one elbox wanted to rebadge :-p

No, not all, but definitely the ones Downix linked to.
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[downix]

AndrewBell wrote:
Those cards fit in a Mac CPU slot, which has not been implemented on the Amiga as far as I know.
No, those two are PCI-based, not Mac CPU slot based.

[Kronos]

Well, but would they work in any other PCI-slot except on a (old) Mac ?

And, even if, what would it matter to "us", since all Amiga-PCI-implementations are half-a#### (at best) ?

There is simply no way one could run an Amiga from a Mediator or Prometheus .... well maybe from the GRex, but what would be the point (GRex means you allready have PPC, but aren't supported by OS4) ???

[downix]

Kronos wrote:
Well, but would they work in any other PCI-slot except on a (old) Mac ?
If you made a driver for it, no reason why not.

[AndrewBell]

downix wrote:
No, those two are PCI-based, not Mac CPU slot based.

From that web page: "Installs into dedicated processor upgrade slot". Look at the images, does that look like a PCI connector to you?
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[HammerD]

@Kronos

G-REX is not supported in OS4 because no documentation on developing for G-REX is available. There would have been support if such documentation could be obtained.

[AndrewBell]

Kronos wrote:
There is simply no way one could run an Amiga from a Mediator or Prometheus .... well maybe from the GRex, but what would be the point (GRex means you allready have PPC, but aren't supported by OS4) ???

That wouldn't be a problem with a SAM440 on PCI, because it is a complete system.
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[Framiga]

@downix

"Installs into dedicated processor upgrade slot"

this one seems what your looking for

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/crescendo_7200.html

[Colin_Camper]

The phaseV PPC/68K cards were a very specific and unique architecture.

You can't just expect to modify a standalone PPC based computer to behave the same way.

Why do you think Elbox didn't release PPC/68K accelerators for their stuff - They would have cleaned up - it just wont work the same way as classic PPC.

It's like trying to run linux on an IBM CISC A4000 - Nah!

[Kronos]

AndrewBell wrote:


That wouldn't be a problem with a SAM440 on PCI, because it is a complete system.

And than why put it onto a PCI-card :crazy: :crazy:

There is hardly any point in having a PPC in an Amiga, if these aren't really connected by anything more than th power-supply.....

@Downix
Sure write a driver that accesses the Amiga-chipset from a card plugged into an Mediator.....

[AndrewBell]

Kronos wrote:
And than why put it onto a PCI-card :crazy: :crazy:

There is hardly any point in having a PPC in an Amiga, if these aren't really connected by anything more than th power-supply.....

Why? Because of that small matter of licensing, that's why.

I'll assume you think this is for OS3.9. My idea for this is a product purely for OS4.

The original post could be clearer, but I'll edit that later. I don't see the point in OS3 accelerators. OS3.9 is old, forgotten by it's creators and starting to creak under the strain of unofficial patches as new functionality is shoehorned in.

OS4 is the way forward, it's less than a month away from release and although it supports ECS/AGA/PAULA, to get the best results you need a Radeon and 16 bit sound. Does Quake3 on 320x256 sound tempting? Not to me it doesn't. DVD soundtrack played on Paula? No thanks. Playing a DIVX from a HD connected to the A1200 IDE port? Forget it. Upgrading the processor alone is not enough.

To be a viable main system (not just a retro gaming curiosity), classic hardware needs a serious solution. Some antique Mac card just doesn't cut it.
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[AndrewBell]

Colin_Camper wrote:
You can't just expect to modify a standalone PPC based computer to behave the same way.

We don't.

Why do you think Elbox didn't release PPC/68K accelerators for their stuff - They would have cleaned up - it just wont work the same way as classic PPC.

It doesn't have to, it's for OS4 only. It's all about getting around the licensing issue.
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[Doobrey]

AndrewBell wrote:

Do you ever read a whole thread before posting? Do you understand what you read? Maybe you should stick to a forum in your native language.


You really are a condescending little prick.

[x56h34]

HammerD wrote:

G-REX is not supported in OS4 because no documentation on developing for G-REX is available. There would have been support if such documentation could be obtained.

I always wondered how come Hyperion don't have any developer documentation for Grex as in the past they made Warp3D compatible with it? They probably needed documentation for Warp3D compatibility (I'm guessing) so what happened to it in the meantime? Did they lose it? Did they never get it in the first place? Just being curious, that's all. :-)

[Kronos]

So you really think you gonna outwit the licencing-delimema by simply putting a 2nd computer into an Amiga ?

Reminds me of the time when I considered putting my Peg1 into my RBM-tower A4000 (yes, there is that much space).....

[AJCopland]

AndrewBell wrote:
Do you ever read a whole thread before posting? Do you understand what you read? Maybe you should stick to a forum in your native language.

Oi! :-x There's no need to be so rude and get off your high horse.
Everyone on this forum has had and read about these ideas before so they're raising valid points.

[Crumb]

@x56h34

They probably had docs about cybpci.library, not about G-Rex itself. Remember that PCI support sits on expansion.library and it controls the PCI bus directly, it does not act as a wrapper like openpci.library.

In addition to that I doubt cybpci.library could work called from OS4 apps/devices, but you never know...

[x56h34]

@Crumb:

That makes perfect sense. Thanks for the clarification.

[billt]

Should we put together a wish list of what we hope for? I wouldnt' expect to get everything I ask for, but it might be nice for them to see what features we really need for this and which ones we as AmigaOS users maybe don't see as absolutely necessary.

[Agafaster]

billt wrote:
Should we put together a wish list of what we hope for? I wouldnt' expect to get everything I ask for, but it might be nice for them to see what features we really need for this and which ones we as AmigaOS users maybe don't see as absolutely necessary.

Yes, lets !!

I want to see that G3 accelerator for the 1200 see the light of day. can't remember its name, but it was built by an ex CBM/Amiga employee - Dave Haynie ?

[A1260]

:idea:

a G3 accelerator+gfx card for the 1200 and a G3 accelerator for the 3000/4000 would also be nice... for the one that dont want the expensive sam440 and like retro amiga....

[therail]

why are people drooling over g3 cpus?! am i living in 2000 again! come on people! just enjoy the amigas with their 68k cpus!!! btw the way, this new accelerator thing... it aint gonna happen. its retarded infact.

[HenryCase]

Agafaster wrote:

billt wrote:
Should we put together a wish list of what we hope for? I wouldnt' expect to get everything I ask for, but it might be nice for them to see what features we really need for this and which ones we as AmigaOS users maybe don't see as absolutely necessary.

Yes, lets !!

I want to see that G3 accelerator for the 1200 see the light of day. can't remember its name, but it was built by an ex CBM/Amiga employee - Dave Haynie ?

Did you mean this...
http://www.cucug.org/amiga/aminews/1999/990326-metabox.html

[JJ]

Would have been good in 1999 when it was due to be realeased. Anybody know what happened to it?

[MissYo]

AndrewBell wrote:

Also, please spread the idea to other Amiga news sites, particularly if you are not a native speaker of English.

Great idea! Let's get Amiga people worldwide involved in this friendly, Amiga Camaraderie!


AndrewBell wrote:

Do you ever read a whole thread before posting? Do you understand what you read? Maybe you should stick to a forum in your native language.

Oh dear... I sense mixed messages....

But heh! It can't hurt to ask, can it? I mean, if you don't ask, how can you expect to receive exactly what you want? Or... is that just incredibly naïve?

[Colin_Camper]

It doesn't have to, it's for OS4 only.

It does!

You do realise that there are two

thats right

two

as in

2

Yes I do mean TWO

ONE TWO

2

variants of OS4.

One is the OS4 we all know and love;
It used to come with an AmigaOne
It might come with a SAM440
I know it wont be seen dead on an ACK! :-)

This OS4 is only sold with the standalone hardware it comes with. You can't buy it as a software only option. It definitely won't ever not ever no never load or install on Amiga classic PPC systems.

The next is the new OS4 which we are promised in November.
This is available as software only option.
It will only install on phaseV classic PPC accelerated Amigas (or DCE) - it won't install on anything else.
No, nothing.

Do you understand?
Comprendez vous?

[Elwood]

why would you want to modify a Sam to put it into a Classic?
Using a Sam as standalone will be much better. If you want a Classic, get a Minimig, or do a Minimig for the Sam FPGA.

[AndrewBell]

@Kronos

I apologise for my previous post, I hadn't slept for over 36 hours and did not put enough thought into the tone and content. I was also having major problems with my crappy BT wireless router which put me in a bad mood. Tired and angry is not a good combination for me.

I meant to say that although it had not been stated explicitly, most people had picked up on this being for OS4. After all, theres little point doing something like this for OS3. WinUAE is a much cheaper and more powerful solution if you want to use 3.9.

I'm not slagging your ability with the English language, I just thought something may have been lost in translation.

With that said, perhaps in the future you could save the crazy smilies until you've actually had an answer to your questions?
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[AndrewBell]

Elwood wrote:
why would you want to modify a Sam to put it into a Classic?
Using a Sam as standalone will be much better.

Because OS4 may never be licensed for the SAM440. Fingers crossed, the outcome of the court case will favour Hyperion, but there's nothing wrong with having a backup plan. If you want the Amiga to survive, remember the survivalists motto: "Plan for the worst, hope for the best".


Elwood wrote:
If you want a Classic, get a Minimig, or do a Minimig for the Sam FPGA.

I don't want a classic, I want OS4. Unfortunately, at the moment that means using classic hardware in some way. That's fine, as long as it's as little classic hardware as possible. Sadly, although Minimig for SAM would be an elegant soultion, it won't get past the lawyers.

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[AndrewBell]

Colin_Camper wrote:
The next is the new OS4 which we are promised in November.
This is available as software only option.
It will only install on phaseV classic PPC accelerated Amigas (or DCE) - it won't install on anything else.
No, nothing.

Do you understand?
Comprendez vous?

Okay, let's go back to basics.

OS4 Classic is about to go on sale. Some people are interested in buying it but unable to use it because they don't have the hardware. New compatible hardware can't be made because the components aren't available or compliant with new regulations. On top of that, the hardware that is available is getting close to a decade old and repair is sometimes impossible.

New hardware can be made, but the people giving the licenses aren't playing ball. We need some devious method to make new hardware fit the terms of the existing license.

Now, even if the manufacturers say yes to the idea, this new hardware won't be ready in time for the OS4 release. This gives the OS4 developers time to code the relevant drivers (if they haven't already), write an installer, duplicate the CD, print a manual and whatever else.


Bottom line: any new hardware needs to be an A1 or a classic accelerator, needs to use new components, and will need it's own version of the OS4 install CD.

Do you understand?
Comprendez vous?
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[AndrewBell]

Removed.
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[AndrewBell]

Kronos wrote:
So you really think you gonna outwit the licencing-delimema by simply putting a 2nd computer into an Amiga ?

The following is a section of the contract, posted on amigans.net by billt:

the PPC based hardware developed and marketed for the Amiga platform including but not limited to the hardware developed and marketed by Phase 5, DCE, and the AmigaOne hardware developed by Escena under contract with the Amiga One Partners.

The bold section seems to allow it. As long as the computer on a PCI card can't run without a host Amiga, then it's nothing more than a specialised (ie OS4 only) accelerator.

I said earlier in the thread that it's a long shot, but what else is there to do except just give up?
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[AndrewBell]

billt wrote:
Should we put together a wish list of what we hope for? I wouldnt' expect to get everything I ask for, but it might be nice for them to see what features we really need for this and which ones we as AmigaOS users maybe don't see as absolutely necessary.

The first choice is PCI or Amiga accelerator slot. PCI means one product for all Amigas, equals quicker to market. A card for the A1200 trapdoor would be extremely cool, but would require more functionality (VGA, audio, ethernet) and increase the cost.

Mass storage interface is a must, particularly for A1200 owners. SATA seems the best option.

I don't know if OS4 would get much benefit from Altivec, but I'd prefer to have it just in case.

If the PCI format is chosen, the card could theoretically benefit from DMA when accessing other cards on the bus, so VGA and audio could be left off, same goes for ethernet.

The memory type should be fairly cheap and easy to obtain, capacity for 2GB should be enough.
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[jimbo100]

@ AndrewBell - Your DREAMIN!!!!

[AndrewBell]

jimbo100 wrote:
@ AndrewBell - Your DREAMIN!!!!

2 weeks ago somebody told me that I must be dreaming if I thought OS4 would be released any time soon. Sometimes dreams happen.
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