Save Amiga [Archive]

scuzzb494

04-01-2007, 03:59 AM

Hi

I was out on one of my salvaging trips the other day collecting as ever computer bits to keep my ageing equipment alive and I came across a guy who was rebuilding from wrecks Austin Healey sports cars from the 50's. I was amazed at just how many folk were still out there making kit for this car. He can only do so much, and all the rest is actually new. We got to talking and I couldn't get over how similar our interest was. He too was totally dismayed at the way his interest had developed over the years. His once proud constructor base ie the UK car industry ( massive in its day ) all but faded away. So rather than give in he kept going with his old kit, and surprisingly its a massive interest group now and for him very very rewarding.

I said some time ago that OS4 was killing the classic Amiga. And I was right. All those folk that had fast OS3.9 towers didn't hang on for an OS that was gonna pretty well junk all that they had got.. They sold it and moved on. All the established Amigan wanted, like I always want is a new accelerator, a new graphics card, etc etc. Loving your Amiga is like loving your MAC, or your Playstation3 or any system with its own purpose designed running system.. A Ford Mass Produced isn't an Austin Healey and somehow those responsible for the furtherment of the Amiga have lost that concept. Just watch the video on the history of the Amiga and that should do the trick.

Shame really.. we just needed to concentrate on keeping some of the hardware alive. My daily struggle. And as annoying, and controversial as it is.. sorry, emulation is not participation. Its just an excuse for thinking your an Amigan to justify the PC. I don`t have such hang ups I have a PC and an Amiga...

And so my wish list.. A small box on the back of my A1200 that simply plugs into the system to give me a decent sized hard drive, graphics card, USB, DVD maybe.. though CD fine but a writer, with ethernet plus say OS3.9 and a bit to run this stuff.. But keeping the Amiga as a base unit. ... I do have all this by the way.. But like the guy with the Healey who couldn't rely on the industry to give him what he wanted I built and had made my own. I have begged, borrowed and bought from other platforms, kit that wasn't specifically designed or made for the Amiga but through the skill and ingenuity of its unique and simply magical community has made this all possible. That community deserved better than to be treated as they have been this last... thinks.. how many years.

And yes, I know, I'm living in the past. Just look over your shoulder, you will see a battlefield full of the dead and dying Amiga folk. Classic Amigans have been struggling for years like this. :-(

We soldier on.

scuzz
http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com

justthatgood

04-01-2007, 05:39 AM

There is a big, big difference in making auto parts then making electronic components. Fiberglass is cheap. Working with steel is even cheaper. Materials can be got and you will be able to find many of the tools at industrial auctions for a song. Get you some CNC's and if you wanna be very fancy a small injection molder.

Any crazy fool with a design and a dream can hop down to a die shop, and they will be able to create dies for you millions of times cheaper then what it would cost to even approach the R&D status of most entry level chip shops.

Making Auto Hobby Parts --->Deep Time Interest and Modestly Lined Pockets.

Making New Computer Hardware --->Extremely Deep Pockets.

Bug_racer

04-01-2007, 05:40 AM

Nice website :-)

Keep the dream alive ;-)

scuzzb494

04-01-2007, 07:53 AM

Hi

I spend all of my spare time maintaining and rebuilding my computers, the majority are Amigas. My primary time is spent hunting down components and parts cus I can`t buy new. This demands a great deal of perseverance, dedication and patience, plus a modest amount of skill. I have great admiration for anyone who dedicates their time to maintaining any classic equipment. I wouldn't like to say what is more complex.. rebuilding the steering system of a rare old car from nothing, or tracking down a tape drive for the A3000UX or a 1060 sidecar for the Amiga 1000. Neither of these can I make.. I can but simply find and hopefully obtain. Once I have them I may be involved in further work but really I can`t see the difference. I am rebuilding an A3000UX at the mo.. So far I have obtained the case, the daughter board, the motherboard, the boxed system software, the floppy drive all from different sources and from all over the world. Sure I have to put it all together and configure it, but I wasn't about to start making computer chips.

Thing I was trying to say was that OS4 and the Emulator have destroyed classic kit and this cannot be replaced, unless it is salvaged and re circulated. This is where I come in, and trust me I get so many requests to help folk with kit you cannot believe.

And I do admire the man who rebuilds an Austin Healey from rusty old wreck from a barn and puts that beast back on the road. I don`t admire someone that junks an Amiga cus he or she still thinks running an emulator makes them part of the community ... Classic kit is so valuable. Please don`t destroy. Please.

scuzz
http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com

04-01-2007, 08:04 AM

scuzzb494 wrote:
I said some time ago that OS4 was killing the classic Amiga. And I was right. All those folk that had fast OS3.9 towers didn't hang on for an OS that was gonna pretty well junk all that they had got.. They sold it and moved on.

I was recently thinking to myself that the Amiga now is pretty much a machine that is split apart.

When comparing the Amiga history to the PC's history, it is obvious the evolution of the PC was very gradual and that is probably what made Microsoft what it is.

The Amiga, on the other hand, has had a slow evolution from 1985, when it was way ahead of what the market had to offer, until 1994 when Commodore died because it was way behind what the market offered.

Even if you have An Amiga 4000 with 68060 and perhaps PPC accelerator and graphics card such as a Cybervision, the technology is at least 10 years behind what's available for the PC and costs a lot more for the performance. However, yes, there are many things the original machine can do that the emulator won't.

However, even on the PC, today, you cannot run your favorite games back from the DOS 6.2 days when the Soundblaster Pro ISA card was the best money could buy you on the latest 486DX. Perhaps you could using something like VMWare.

With the Amiga, however, because the step is now so high between today's technology and what we consider to be the classic Amiga, it is almost impossible to bridge the gap in a seamless manner like the PC more or less has over the last 2 decades.

It also helps the PC's cause that the processor we use today are still considered x86 32bit processors. On the Amiga, well, we know we will never see anything like an 68090 with dual core.

For this reason, perhaps emulation is, in the end, what will save the classic Amiga because we all know eventually all our machines will fail and emulation is probably the only way to get a stunningly fast 680x0 processor to run at the speeds we get from intel (or AMD) processors.

One must admit that it is both cheaper and faster to run an emulated Amiga under Windows XP than to try and get an Amiga 3000/4000 with a Cyberstorm MKIII.

And so... today's latest Amiga is totally split from the classic machine. These are truly two totally different machines.

K7HTH

04-01-2007, 09:27 AM

@ eslapion

Very well put.

HellCoder

04-01-2007, 09:47 AM

All we need is 8 Mb Chip, it can be done!
:)

scuzzb494

04-01-2007, 09:54 AM

Hi

But what classic Amiga are you talking about. Software or hardware. I am talking about honest to goodness nuts and bolts Amigas. I have no doubt that the software will be saved.. You could incarcerate that in a tomb and no doubt get it running in a trillion years time. What I am talking about is the many many classic Amiga ( machine ) users that have to beg borrow and steal kit to keep the computers going, cus, we can tell the difference between a bit of software and an Amiga. I just don`t see the point of sticking an emulator on a PC to run like an Amiga.. It chills me to the bones. That won`t save the Amiga, it just perpetuates a trend in computing thats being going now since it all began. Something for nothing. Download central. Its what the internet is all about. Guys playing pirate games on their widescreen, pumping through a chipped XBOX. I get mail after mail from people wanting copies of my software and workbench disks. All for nothing. I guess someone will suggest that playing an Amiga emulator on a Playstation is also the only way we are gonna save the Amiga. We are all fooling ourselves. You cheapen the very thing we love. I have a DVD here that came with a Retro Mag that has every known emulator on it, does that mean I have done my bit to save the Spectrum, Atari, Amstrad etc etc. Can`t you see what is happening. All I am troubled by is that we had Amiga enthusiasts with rare and important kit that had evolved with them being dumped.. And I would like a trend toward keeping the true Amiga.. The actual kit and not the software. And I am sick to the death of folk suggesting an Amiga needs to compete with what exists today.. Honestly that's what has destroyed the classic Amiga. I get mail from all over the place, and I could list a very very long catalogue of true Amigans who have finally given up and dumped their kit. Often I am asked to help, and I do, and will continue to do so. I really do have a problem with the emulator cus it is not an Amiga.

scuzz
http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com

Fransexy_

04-01-2007, 10:40 AM

stop thinking you can actually write an OS and just use somebody else's OS and build a GUI on top of it.

Like AmigaOS? :roll:

"Saving" the Amiga we've been using for 20+ years is just stupid.

Are not all these unix/linux/BSDs based on a 30+ years old technology? :roll:

The only modern OS is BeOS and have 15+ already all others are based on more old kernel/technologies

Tomas

04-01-2007, 11:51 AM

team66 wrote:
I've a long time amiga fan and am very affraid that our beloved passion is going to fall back into obscurity just like osx for powerpc did.
What we need is that our os is ported to Playstation 3 as soon as possible and then to the xbox360 and the wii.
Look at the opportunities.
They all run on powerpc and together form the nextgen game computers.

How exactly can one get it running on the wii or the xbox 360, considering that the systems are both completely locked down. Microsoft or Nintendo would never ever allow anyone to run a third party OS on their consoles. The only way would be to hack the console using a modchip or similar. Even then it would be near impossible to get working properly, due to the fact that it is not easy to write drivers for a non documented system.

The ps3 is possible, but is not very likely that will ever happen.

lorddef

04-01-2007, 01:54 PM

Piru wrote:
First step is to replace the moon with a large ball of cheese.

Piru, you be very behind with technology, this has already been done. Look we have proof:

http://harriettstomato.typepad.com/foodlog/images/wallacecheese_7.jpg

They have also built the pair of remote control trousers we can send to the cheese moon to bootstrap the kernel.

A4000_Mad

04-01-2007, 02:26 PM

And an Amiga 1000T robot has been up there for years looking after the place ;-)

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o164/Cyberstorm604e/AmigaRobot.jpg

A4000 Mad

lorddef

04-01-2007, 02:28 PM

A4000_Mad wrote:
And an Amiga 1000T robot has been up there for years looking after the place ;-)

A4000 Mad

indeed! ;-)

coldfish

04-02-2007, 06:37 AM

@GreggBz

Ahh, the list, 'tis a timeless gem...

Agafaster

04-02-2007, 07:48 AM

I nearly misread the title as "Shave Amiga".
pity, that woulda been a whole other story ! :-P

McVenco

04-02-2007, 08:03 AM

scuzzb494 wrote:

And I would like a trend toward keeping the true Amiga.. The actual kit and not the software. And I am sick to the death of folk suggesting an Amiga needs to compete with what exists today.. Honestly that's what has destroyed the classic Amiga.

I can't do anything but completely agree with you. Emulation is fun, just like racing a 1955 Austin Healey on a Playstation. Having the actual machine at your house (be it the Amiga or the Healey) is far more valuable.

I KNOW that my Amiga's can't compete one on one with any other recent computer (of any kind) but that has never been a point to me. I just love the fact I can use a 1992 machine (my A4000) to browse the 2007 web, but I also love the fact that I can use a 1987 machine to do everything that it was designed for, and without a flaw (try that with a 1987 Ford Escort that has been used extensively for 20 years, with just it's regular services).

Classic Amiga is all about the hardware, and it hurts me everytime I notice someone throws one away.

Mind you: that does not stop me encouraging the "modern" Amiga, with AROS and MorphOS and such. But people should face the fact that these are 2 completely different things.

I'm currently bidding on some old, very yellowed A500s with a few A590 and GVP HD's. Just to keep them from being thrown into the bin.

amiga92570

04-02-2007, 08:08 AM

Piru wrote:
First step is to replace the moon with a large ball of cheese.\

I believe Amiga Corp stated that has already been acomplished. :roflmao: :roflmao:

04-02-2007, 10:21 AM

scuzzb494 wrote:
But what classic Amiga are you talking about. Software or hardware.

Actually, both.

What I am talking about is the many many classic Amiga ( machine ) users that have to beg borrow and steal kit to keep the computers going, cus, we can tell the difference between a bit of software and an Amiga.

The question is... why would one want to make the difference? I know I wouldn't. What is a Amigaone but a PC with a different processor?

Personnaly, when I had a real Amiga, I was always pissed because getting on it what the PC could do cost 4 times as much.

Get yourself an Amiga 4000 with a cyberstorm and cybervision to run some CPU intensive applications with a full colored desktop. Now do the same with a PC running Cloanto's Amiga forever or even Windows. I prefer a thousand times to do it with the emulator on the PC... much cheaper, faster and much less hassle to get support if you run into trouble with your hardware...

I just don`t see the point of sticking an emulator on a PC to run like an Amiga.. It chills me to the bones. That won`t save the Amiga, it just perpetuates a trend in computing thats being going now since it all began. Something for nothing. Download central. Its what the internet is all about. Guys playing pirate games on their widescreen, pumping through a chipped XBOX. I get mail after mail from people wanting copies of my software and workbench disks. All for nothing.

Now you're confusing emulation with software piracy. Running an emulator LEGALLY means you paid for that OS you're running. Either by buying the chips or buying the OS license. And yes, I agree with everyone who says that by tying OS4 to a specific set of hardware, it will kill this architecture for good. * (see at end)

Look at Microsoft. Do they care if you use an NVidia video card or ATI or Matrox? Do they care if you have an AMD or Intel processor or chipset? They don't... and that's how they get in everyone's home and get filthy rich.

Amiga Inc. should not care that I use my Amiga environment to play old games or to run the latest version of Pagestream and they should not care that my Amiga is emulated or an old platform. They don't make the chipsets anymore anyways. The only thing that should matter to them is that I paid for it.

I guess someone will suggest that playing an Amiga emulator on a Playstation is also the only way we are gonna save the Amiga. We are all fooling ourselves. You cheapen the very thing we love.

And as I tried to explain to somebody else... you are effectively DESTROYING the thing you love by forgetting that's its very existence is tied to its marketability.

If there was such a thing as an Amiga emulator for PS3 legally sold in stores then the OS it contains would earn money to Amiga Inc. and necessarily contribute to make it a better product and give it a longer lifespan. And more companies would be likely to come along and develop other softwares or hardwares for it.

I have a DVD here that came with a Retro Mag that has every known emulator on it, does that mean I have done my bit to save the Spectrum, Atari, Amstrad etc etc. Can`t you see what is happening. All I am troubled by is that we had Amiga enthusiasts with rare and important kit that had evolved with them being dumped.. And I would like a trend toward keeping the true Amiga.. The actual kit and not the software.

The actual kit is totally dead market wise. It is decades behind what the market has to offer technology wise and in the end, just like any other computers, it is a platform to run software and it is a very lousy one because it is outrageously expensive and its performance just plain sucks.

If I could plug a PC into the CPU accelerator slot of my Amiga 3000 to make it go faster then I would. If I could plug my Radeon 9800 in one of its Zorro III slots to give it a fast colorful display then I would. If I could plug in it the 100Mbit/s PCI network card I just paid 10$ for my PC then I would! But the fact is... I CAN'T and because of that it deserves to die.

And I am sick to the death of folk suggesting an Amiga needs to compete with what exists today.. Honestly that's what has destroyed the classic Amiga.

And I am sick to death of having to kick my Amiga 3000 to make it go faster and give essential basic stuff that any decent computers have had since 1995.

My answer is NO, NO, NO and NO! What killed Commodore in the first place (in 1994), is the fact that you had to pay 500$ for a video card with lousy performance (that's what I paid for my Picasso II back then) while you got a super fast one for 150$ on a PC. And that to hope for any decent network connection that was standard on both the Mac and PC, you had to get special software patches because the OS didn't support it AND pay a super fat price tag for some totally no-standard hardware and a buggy driver with no support. And that for half the price you paid a 40 MHz 68040 Amiga, you could get yourself a 486DX running at 100MHz.

That is what killed it.

I get mail from all over the place, and I could list a very very long catalogue of true Amigans who have finally given up and dumped their kit. Often I am asked to help, and I do, and will continue to do so. I really do have a problem with the emulator cus it is not an Amiga.

They have dumped their old incapable junk and rightly so. The have given up because there is no resonably priced way to get the hardware to keep up. My own equipment is getting out the door too because it doesn't do what I need.

And I have a problem with the Amiga platform because it is nowhere near what I would want my Amiga to be.

The emulator is a lot more of an Amiga than the real thing because in the end, it does what I always wanted my real Amiga to do and never could do because Commodore couldn't care less about offering its customers what they want and failed to realize that they are in a competitive market.

If anybody realistically wanted to sell an Amiga kit today, it would have to be the size of small laptop, operate on batteries while offering a processing power equivalent to an Amiga 4000 equipped with a 68060 at 50MHz with 128MB of RAM, a 40GB HD and integrated Cybervision display. And if they ever even think of asking for more than 300$ for it all then they deserve to vanish off the face of the earth.

My girlfriend just bought herself a brand new laptop with 2GHz processor, 512MB of RAM and an 80Gb Hard drive for 500$. What could an old piece of junk with only 128MB and 50MHz processor could possibly be worth?

Have you seen what the price tag is on one of these Amigaone machines? And that's IF you can even get one. There are still Amiga 1200 available for sale...have you seen what they ask for when you get a decent accelerator, HD and RAM in it? Get back on earth.

Added edit:
================================================== ========
The war between Amiga Inc. and its customers has already begun... read: http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=28329

Only an absolute shoot-yourself-in-the-foot" company would do stupid things like that.

Even Apple and their proprietary Mac OS X wouldn't do that.

04-02-2007, 11:06 AM

scuzzb494 wrote:

...I get mail after mail from people wanting copies of my software and workbench disks. All for nothing. ...

I would like to add that charging money for software that has been discontinued more than a decade ago is just plain criminal in my point of view.

I think Amiga Inc. should sell OS4 to anyone and EVERYONE regardless of the hardware they intend to run it on and I think everything that was released in the Commodore days (1994 and before), including all kickstarts and workbenches should be part of the public domain.

Damion

04-02-2007, 12:10 PM

Personnaly, when I had a real Amiga, I was always pissed because getting on it what the PC could do cost 4 times as much.

Get yourself an Amiga 4000 with a cyberstorm and cybervision to run some CPU intensive applications with a full colored desktop. Now do the same with a PC running Cloanto's Amiga forever or even Windows. I prefer a thousand times to do it with the emulator on the PC... much cheaper, faster and much less hassle to get support if you run into trouble with your hardware...

Can't say I disagree with this. Not only is it faster and cheaper, but you can watch AGA demos fullscreen, at high resolutions on a nice LCD (no more yucky 50 Hz flicker). When I discovered how much "better" WinUAE was for most everyday Amiga things, my A1200 expansions were on Ebay in a flash.

However... I also agree with preserving what's left of the old hardware, at least for historical purposes (and no doubt it's fun to play around with that, too). I have a few nice Amigas that I'll probably keep forever, and I'll agree that there's a certain "essence" about the old hardware that can't be captured with an emulator -- BUT (in my case at least) that wears off pretty quicky, LOL.

In a way, it's like my 1985 500SEL... an absolutely fantastic machine, far ahead of its time, and amazing to drive when everything is "right". The older it gets, the more of a novelty it becomes. On the flip side, it's also expensive to operate (a huge maintenance pig, takes 2 days to polish and wax properly, etc) and guzzles fuel like mad. Definitely not something for everyday driving.

scuzzb494

04-02-2007, 02:29 PM

Hi

[ quote ]

If I could plug a PC into the CPU accelerator slot of my Amiga 3000 to make it go faster then I would. If I could plug my Radeon 9800 in one of its Zorro III slots to give it a fast colorful display then I would. If I could plug in it the 100Mbit/s PCI network card I just paid 10$ for my PC then I would! But the fact is... I CAN'T and because of that it deserves to die.

[ end quote ]

Now you are just being down right insulting. This is an Amiga Forum I trust and I see no need to bad mouth the thing that I cherish and love. If you have such a problem with the A3000 then sell or give it to someone that will give it the respect it deserves and not kick the poor thing. You obviously are having problems understanding the concept of ' Classic Amiga '. If I wanted a new machine I would get one. I wouldn't have the same kind of hang ups that you have trying to turn a ' Classic Computer ' into something it aint. I really couldn't care less about the new age fraternity that still wallow around moping about cus their Amiga can`t do what a PC does, then populate the groups and forums bad mouthing anyone that still has a love affair with their computer. My last A4000T cost me £750 and I just love it to death. I could get a new computer for that... But I could do that any day of the week. Boring, pointless, moronic computing. Food without taste. My favourite A1200 with CDROM, ZIP, 2 SCSI HDs, Ethernet, etc etc still gives me more pleasure than any PC, but then you see I just love ' Classic Amigas '. My plea to folk with old kit is not dump it or destroy it, cus believe it or not there are folk like me that actually enjoy using a ' proper Amiga.'

So... Don't quote your upgrade options at me to demonstrate just how inferior an Amiga is to a PC. I don`t have any doubt about that. My world is the world of the ' Classic Amiga '. A world where the original hardware is sacred. And where as a community we do not bad mouth the very reason for why we exist. Do not forget that. I keep the faith and I will die holding that once proud flag.

' Participate. Don`t Emulate '

PS: An Amiga is not junk. Quite insulting you know, particularly as this is supposedly an Amiga Forum. One reason why I have little time for this place.

scuzz

scuzzb494

04-02-2007, 02:38 PM

If you own an Amiga then you should have the rights to the OS software. I don`t have a problem with that. But I don`t agree that the disks should be made available for emulators that come free as a download from the WEB.

All software is covered by copyright issues and the creators wishes should be respected. No one has the right to break such laws irrespective of their own views. If by obtaining the disks you buy the originals from someone else then that is fine. Copying disks though is not fine. And is against the law as I say.

The Internet is littered with folk that want something for nothing, and no doubt there are those reading this that have obtained illegally the very software they use. I care little, other than when folk make no effort what so ever to bring their own bottle to the party. [ obscure that ]

scuzz

04-02-2007, 05:06 PM

scuzzb494 wrote:
If you own an Amiga then you should have the rights to the OS software. I don`t have a problem with that. But I don`t agree that the disks should be made available for emulators that come free as a download from the WEB.

All software is covered by copyright issues and the creators wishes should be respected. No one has the right to break such laws irrespective of their own views. If by obtaining the disks you buy the originals from someone else then that is fine. Copying disks though is not fine. And is against the law as I say.

Copyright laws are not an unlimited license to economic tyranny. Charging money for software that was put on the market 15 years ago is precisely that.

Charging for WB 3.9 -> OK. Charging for WB 3.1 and anything earlier -> THEFT!

Worst, if you want to buy OS4... you can't... let's seal the coffin!

There are people letting DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.1 downloadable on the internet. What do you think Microsoft does about it? NOTHING.

Go to Apple's web site and you'll be able to get Finder 7.5.3 for free. And now, even the ROMs to the old Quadra series are easy to find for emulation fans with no legal consequences at all.

The Internet is littered with folk that want something for nothing, and no doubt there are those reading this that have obtained illegally the very software they use. I care little, other than when folk make no effort what so ever to bring their own bottle to the party.

Hey, I just paid 500$ to upgrade my PC... I got a new MoBo with dual core processor running at 2.8 GHz and 1GB of RAM. What do you get for 500$ on the classic Amiga?

I agree that you should pay for what you get BUT YOU SHOULD ALSO GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

As for food without taste... What was the jewel of all third party equipment you could have for the Amiga back in 1992? Probably the Video Toaster. Well, guess what? You can still buy a brand new video toaster today without worrying about being left out on a limb. Why? Because unlike the Amiga IT EVOLVED! Today's Video Toaster runs ONLY ON A PC...

And what about the archrival of the Amiga, the Macintosh... which you can still see in many computer stores downtown? Its still there too. Why? Because unlike the Amiga IT EVOLVED! Heck, even Apple recognised the need to depart from PPC processors and runs on x86. Why shouldn't the Amiga follow the same route?

I love the Amiga but if it is to pursue its existence in the next decades, then just like every piece of technology that exists, it has to evolve and it has to do so in a manner that follows what most people want out of it.

What you say amounts to nothing other than stagnation. THAT is the death of a piece of technology.

Pyromania

04-02-2007, 05:19 PM

Waccoon stated

"Oh yeah, and stop thinking you can stop piracy by using DRM and hardware keys. Piracy is a problem on every platform, and even if the OS is miraculously exempt from piracy (haha) the application developers won't be. Stop being paranoid and just release something that will sell more than a thousand copies, so it can, you know, actually reach critical mass."

Very well said Waccoon.

Best regards

DiscreetFX

kd7ota

04-02-2007, 05:22 PM

... I had to log in just to do this! :-D

http://koft.net/pix/dh.gif

04-02-2007, 05:37 PM

kd7ota wrote:
... I had to log in just to do this! :-D

Well said!

scuzzb494

04-02-2007, 07:24 PM

Hi

[ quote ]

What you say amounts to nothing other than stagnation. THAT is the death of a piece of technology.

[ end quote ]

The paths divide.. You go the way of the software. I stay here with the hardware. I will forever stay with the hardware cus for me its what the Amiga is all about. You can have your software and your future with whatever you pass off as modern in terms of the Amiga. I don`t see what you see, so we better agree to disagree. All I ask is that folk do not destroy their hardware... Please.

I have to see, feel, use, hear, sense, enjoy, cherish, love, care for and respect the true Amiga. This has substance for me. OS4 means nothing to me and neither does the emulator which is even worse. And as for stagnation, that is a cheap swipe at those that actually really appreciate that hardware and software go together. And I will take that to the grave, cus its what makes MS so crap. Apple at least try. The Amiga died in 1994.. There was no further Commodore product that I can truly say embodies the Amiga. And so folk like me enjoy their ' Classic Amigas '. This is a wholly different world to what those aspiring to PCs live for.

And as to flogging a dead horse... You lot are really amusing, honestly, sometimes. I go now... Not frustrated waiting for the next best thing which will never be able to compete with the PCs currently on the market, or waiting for someone to port the Amiga to something, or waiting for some kind company to actually fulfill one of the trillion promises about the Amiga and ' The next best thing ', and certainly not frustrated enough to keep going on endlessly about what should happen to the Amiga... My goodness. Life is far too short. Instead I will joy at mucking around with my Amigas...

A500
A500Plus
A600
A600HD
Amiga 1000
A1200
A1200HD
A1200HD/40
A1200Tower
A1500
Checkmate
A2000
A2000HD
A2000 3.1ROM
A3000
A3000T
A3000UX
A4000d
A4000T

Just for starters... Having fun... Yes.. Flogging a dead horse... Giggles... You gotta be kidding. Fortunately Commodore left me quite sufficient to keep me happy the rest of my life... What Amiga are you gonna play on... Or is it actually a tin box pretending to be the greatest computer of all time.

Long live the Amiga. And yes there are still some of the old brigade still around.. We haven`t all faded into the background.

scuzz
http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com

Damion

04-02-2007, 08:12 PM

A500
A500Plus
A600
A600HD
Amiga 1000
A1200
A1200HD
A1200HD/40
A1200Tower
A1500
Checkmate
A2000
A2000HD
A2000 3.1ROM
A3000
A3000T
A3000UX
A4000d
A4000T

Rather off topic of me but that is one impressive-as-hellz collection you've got there... damn. (I'm down to a mere two.)

I guess I feel pretty lucky, I have no problem enjoying BOTH emulation AND the "real thing". (Actually, I wouldn't mind an A600, dunno if I'll actually seek one out though.)

Anyway, it's a given most people are going to be into emulation, but as I see it, live and let live... if the hardware is important to a person, so be it... there has to be someone to preserve this stuff. There's room around here for everyone.

Amiduffer

04-02-2007, 08:43 PM

SAVE AMIGA!

You're 12 years too late pal. Let's enjoy what has been produced already, and get the most out of them while we still can still turn them on.

Put your money where your mouth is and support the small number of people who still produce and upgrade programs, and the even smaller number of people who produce actual hardware, like Jens, and the even smaller number of cool dudes who retail this stuff.

adric22

04-03-2007, 08:20 AM

Well.. here are my two cents. The Amiga is dead, as a marketable product. The reason it costs a fortune to produce anything is because of the fact there are so few people willing to purchase it. The PC community has a huge advantage in numbers. Even Macintosh stuff tends to fetch a premium price, and they have millions of users.

I love my Amiga 1000 and Amiga 500, just like I love my Commodore 64. but I don't ever really expect to use those computers for modern day-to-day things. I wish I could, but I just can't. And I'm not going to spend thousands of dollars to upgrade an Amiga so that it can do those things, when I can buy a PC for $50 bucks that will outperform it.

The way for the Amiga to live on is with technology like the Minimig. That is something I'll shell out money for, but it wouldn't be because I expect to use it as my day-to-day computer. It would just be an easier way for me to relive the Amiga games without having to have a real Amiga (which takes up a lot of space) around.

The sad thing is, I could see the Minimig evolving into a far more powerfull Amiga than an A4000 with all of those upgrades, yet cost considerably less.

scuzzb494

04-03-2007, 12:11 PM

Hi

I am very very lucky to own and be able to use nearly every known model of Amiga computer. I also can pretty well plug in and run almost all the major machine platforms from 1981 to the current day. It doesn't stop there cus I also have so much software, hardware, magazines, CDs, peripherals etc etc. So you see I was always gonna say using the original was better than the emulation. Its what I do. I have never got bored with my original A1200 which runs OS3.0 so I have never really wanted a new machine.

All of this is on line for those that wish to have a nose.

http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com

By the way I wasn't really knocking those that choose to stay in the fast lane. You are all mighty free to do that. I just don`t want folk to get confused between the ' Classic Amiga ' and an emulator. It is important that we do not lose sight of what an Amiga is all about ( honestly ).. And I just want to see as many people as possible looking after the older kit. I don`t want to see the emulator and OS4 used as an excuse to dispose of very very valuable kit. Trust me when I say that on my travels I hear all the various reasons from folk on why they are getting rid of their computer... They don`t fool me. I can see the tear in their eye. At least I never dispose of stuff, and they can always go look at their old kit on the website. I do try to talk them into keeping their kit. Sad... but not lost.

Cuppa tea me thinks.

I spend all my spare time working with the Amiga on the website, repairing kit and helping others. It really is wonderful. I am so so lucky to have an interest in such a classic bit of kit.

[ giggles ] I do have the Emulator CD... That would be too easy.. And nothing like as much fun. I'm in Amiga wonderland and loving it.

scuzz
http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com

PS Last months additions to the collection....

COMPUTERS:

Acorn A3010 boxed
Acorn A3010 with modem
Acorn Pocket Book
Amstrad Alt386-SX Laptop
Amstrad NC200 Notebook
Amstrad Pen Pad PDA 600
Atari 600XL
2nd Atari 600XL
Atari 800
Atari Portfolio HPC-004
Commodore C386SX-LT Laptop
Compaq Portable III Luggable
2nd Compaq Portable III Luggable
Enterprise 64 boxed
IBM PS/1 with monitor, mouse and keyboard
IBM Luggable PS/2 P70
Matra and Hachett - Alice
Sanyo MBC550 plus hardbound binders and keyboard
Sega Mega CD II
Sega Mega Drive

AMIGA CARDS:
A2386SX Bridgeboard
OpalVision Graphics Card
Amiga 1050 Expansion for the A1000 boxed
Amiga PCMCIA Network card and kit.
PicassoIV Vers.1.2
2 x A4000 Daughterboards
Cyberstorm MKII
Phase 5 SCSI Module
Catweasel Z-11 MK 2
Oktagon 2008
A3640 Processor Card

AMIGA:
GT-916 Genitizer
Amiga Audio Digitiser
Amiga 601 RAM Expansion Guide
Kyrandia - Fables and Friends - Westwood
Psyngnosis Games Rare Boxed -
Anarchy - Psygnosis
Atomino - Psygnosis
Armour Geddon - Psygnosis
Cruise for a Corpse - Delphine
RoboCop 3 - The Hit Squad
Super Tetris - Spectrum HoloByte
Immortal - Electronic Arts
Amiga Forever - Cloanto CD Version 5.0
A4000 keyboard
A4000 Internal Floppy Drive
2 x A4000 PSUs
Amiga Workbench 1.3
Amiga Format Cover CDs 21,22,24
IDE Fix 1993
IDE Fix - 1993 1996 Elborate Bytes
SCSI Tools Version 2.2 - Phase 5
Village Tronic - Install PicassoIV

AMIGA MAGAZINES:
47 CU Amiga
9 Amiga Shopper
3 Amiga Power
35 Amiga Computing
62 Amiga Format
3 Your Computer
25 Amiga Active
2 Zero
6 The One
9 Amiga World
27 AUI
2 ST Amiga
1 ST Format

ACORN:
RisC OS User Guide
RisC Application Software 1 and 2
An Introduction to the RisC OS

AMSTRAD
Amstrad Machine Language - Joe Pritchard
Amstrad CPC 6128 Manual - User Instructions
CPM Plus
Amstrad Notebook Computer NC200 Manual

ATARI:
Mega Computer Manual
Atari TrakBall
Two button mouse

COMMODORE:
C128 Controller
An Introduction to your new Pet - 2001 Series
PractiCalc64 5.25" disk plus manual
C64 Games System Software Manual
Inventory 64 5.25" disk plus manual
Anagram Software for the C64
C64 Step by Step Programming - Phil Cornes
ScreenShot Graphics Pack
GEOS 128 v2 & BASIC 8 EPROM
GEOmakeBoot 5.25" disk plus manual - Creative Micro Designs

Commodore Games:
Rally Driver - Alternative
Turbo OutRun - Sega
Quattro Adventure - Codemasters
Arnie - Zeppelin
Yogi Bear - HiTec
River Rescu - Alternative
Super Hang On - Hit Squad
Ninja Scooter Simulator - Silverbird
SummerCamp - Kixx
Golden Egg Cup - Mastertronic
BMX 2 - Codemasters
Moontorc - Atlantis
SWAG - Micromania
Quattro Coin Ops - Codemasters
ProPowerBoat - Codemasters
Trio - Sparklers
Paperboy - Encore
StreetWarriors - Silverbird
Lotus Esprit Turbo Challenge - GBH
Commodore Action Pack 2
Sanxion - Hewson
Atlantis Gamepacks 1 and 2

SEGA:
Megadrive Games:
SONIC 2 - Sega
Rocket Knight Adventures - Konami
Claifornia Games - Sega
Sonic the Hedgehog - Sega
Road Rash - Electronic Arts
Global Gladiators - Virgin
FIFA 97 - Electronic Arts
Batman Returns - Sega
Super Hang-On - Sega
Mega CD Games: Road Avenger - Sega
Jaguar XJ220 - Core
Terminator - Virgin
Genesis Games:
QuackShot - Sega
Alien 3 - Arena International
PGA Tour Golf - Electronic Arts

SINCLAIR
Programming your ZX Spectrum - Tim Hartnell
Spectrum +3 Manual
Spectrum +2 Manual
Sinclair ZXSpectrum BASIC Programming
ZXSpectrum+ User Guide
ZX81 Learning Lab
Programming Arcade Games on the Spectrum - Adrian Jones
River Raid - Activision
Tasword Two - Tasman Software
Make a Chip - Incognito
Data Genie - ACL AudioGenic
Finance Manager - OCP
Address Manager - OCP
Griffin Software Wordspell
Spectrum Machine Code Made Easy - Paul Holmes
Advanced Spectrum Machine Language - Melbourne House
Spectrum Machine Language for the Absolute Beginner
Spectrum Graphics and Sound - Steve Money

TANDY:
GT16 - Graphics Tablet

And yes I am mad :-)

skurk

04-03-2007, 12:47 PM

Holy #@%$...!! That's the most impressive collection I've ever seen.

:bow: I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy! :bow:

04-03-2007, 09:25 PM

scuzzb494 wrote:
...
COMPUTERS:

Acorn A3010 boxed
Acorn A3010 with modem
Acorn Pocket Book
Amstrad Alt386-SX Laptop
Amstrad NC200 Notebook
Amstrad Pen Pad PDA 600
Atari 600XL
2nd Atari 600XL
Atari 800
Atari Portfolio HPC-004
Commodore C386SX-LT Laptop
Compaq Portable III Luggable
2nd Compaq Portable III Luggable
Enterprise 64 boxed
...
And yes I am mad :-)

Hummm... I don't see a VIC-20 in there. Now that's a computer worth keeping forever!

See: http://www.eskimo.com/~areed/vic/supervic_cartridge.htm

Amiduffer

04-03-2007, 10:26 PM

Holleeee crap scuzzb494. Quite a collection. I take it you live in a warehouse. :lol:

salien

04-04-2007, 12:49 AM

It feels like there is a lot of elitism to the emulated vs. unemulated debate. People who've decided to spend the time, money and space to collect the hardware vs. those who choose not to. I just can't see why people get so worked up over what should be a fun hobby.

Minuous

04-04-2007, 01:49 AM

There's nothing wrong with emulation, although admittedly the current pair of Amiga emulators leave a lot to be desired. This "nothing beats the real thing" kind of attitude is just silly. A decent emulator can be FAR superior to the real thing, eg. savestate support, faster CPU speeds, etc. And since no Amiga hardware is being made, emulation is the only possible way to increase the userbase.

By the way it's not correct to say that no versions of AmigaOS have been released as abandonware, 1.3, for example, has been. I don't know why people continue to pay Cloanto for it when they can get it legally for free, I assume it must be because the fact is not widely known.

cpfuture

04-04-2007, 02:05 AM

skurk wrote:
Holy #@%$...!! That's the most impressive collection I've ever seen.

:bow: I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy! :bow:

Heheh, had the same feeling when I first happened to stumble upon Scuzz's site. I always feel like a kid in a (virtual) candy store whenever I check his museum. :-D

AmiKit

04-04-2007, 02:13 AM

By the way it's not correct to say that no versions of AmigaOS have been released as abandonware, 1.3, for example, has been.
Who has released it? And when? Source please.

By the way, check this (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=25174) before you refer to "abandonware" again.

Minuous

04-04-2007, 02:17 AM

IIRC it's in the ReloKick docs.

Piru

04-04-2007, 02:20 AM

@Minuous
By the way it's not correct to say that no versions of AmigaOS have been released as abandonware, 1.3, for example, has been. I don't know why people continue to pay Cloanto for it when they can get it legally for free, I assume it must be because the fact is not widely known.
There is no such thing as abandonware.
Wikipedia: Abandonware (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonware)

10 Big Myths about copyright explained (http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html)

Piru

04-04-2007, 02:23 AM

@Minuous
IIRC it's in the ReloKick docs.
What is?

ReloKick has been included on a CU-Amiga cover disk once. IIRC the included "Kick 1.3" ROM was stripped down version, only able to fire up floppy bootable games. Apparently CU Amiga had Commodore's blessing for including this version. It doesn't mean that this version would somehow be freely distributable however, nor does it mean that Kick 1.3 would be freely distributable.

Any ReloKick distribution including original Kickstart 1.3 image are illegal.

bobamu

04-04-2007, 03:17 AM

that's a nice big collection you've got there, but your catagories of diffent machines seem to be all over the place :)

A4000_Mad

04-04-2007, 05:23 AM

A500
A500Plus
A600
A600HD
Amiga 1000
A1200
A1200HD
A1200HD/40
A1200Tower
A1500
Checkmate
A2000
A2000HD
A2000 3.1ROM
A3000
A3000T
A3000UX
A4000d
A4000T

Scuzz, I have known about you and your amazing collection for years 8-) Good to see you here and read your opinions :-)

I only have 11 of those 19 myself :bigcry: I would have bought more but a voice started bellowing down the stairs "If that van is delivering another Amiga I'm gonna pull your leg off and cave your head in with it" :nervous:

Anyone know if it would be possible to work on Amigas while hopping on one leg and looking out of your neck? :-D

A4000 Mad

McVenco

04-04-2007, 05:51 AM

PS Last months additions to the collection....

<snip>

And yes I am mad :-)

Holy sweet Jesus Christ on a pogostick, you mean those are the ADDITIONS of last month? :-o

Lemme guess: you don't live in a 70 m2 appartment, do you? :lol:

Agafaster

04-04-2007, 06:51 AM

@scuzzb494

Jeeeezzz mate ! I take it your either not married, and have no kids, or she's as mad as you!

I also deduce you must be British given the presence of various ZXes and Acorns...

scuzzb494

04-04-2007, 03:47 PM

Hi

I'll give you a clue... I went to Wolverhampton Polytechnic and although went to the Molineux many times, spent more time at the Saddlers... thats cus I was born in Walsall and bought my first ZX81 from Currys in Brownhills. Sound familiar... I have moved south now though.

scuzz

scuzzb494

04-04-2007, 03:56 PM

Hi

>Hummm... I don't see a VIC-20 in there.

I have everything pretty much. If you look at the picture of the inside of the VIC 20 below you will see a large dead spider. Have no idea how long he'd been there.

http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com/amiga/car_0106/car_0106_027.jpg

I had arrive this week a boxed C64GS The Games System version of the C64 without the keyboard which is very strange.

scuzz

amigaksi

04-05-2007, 03:21 AM

>by rednova on 2007/3/25 13:08:33
>
>Dear Friends:
>
>I would love to make new amiga games...to keep amiga alive.
>www.feryogi.com
>I am a hobbyist animator and coder. I wanna help save >amiga.
>
>My goal is to make new amiga games with quality 3d graphics
>-lightwave-is my 2 cent worth to help.
>My games will be freeware..i don't expect any money...but >i hope my games will be welcome....

If you have an image disk of a game you want to distribute with MPDOS, let me know. I currently distribute MPDOS with some sample assembly language code and a multimedia CD. I guess the nature of the game would matter and of course your interest, but I would be interested in what type of game(s) you have.

Hammer

04-05-2007, 05:27 AM

However, even on the PC, today, you cannot run your favorite games back from the DOS 6.2 days when the Soundblaster Pro ISA card was the best money could buy you on the latest 486DX.

Install DOS 6.22 as the primary OS and install SoundBlaster 16 PCI (or compatible) sound card.

Perhaps you could using something like VMWare.

Use DOSBox.

Bug_racer

04-05-2007, 06:29 AM

I may be wrong but its my own opinion based on what Ive read here :

It seems that the power of a pc is determined by its speed and its processing ability v its price . Its looking like Amiga is getting further and further behind when it comes to speed and price so why doesnt amiga concentrate on making more software based on the systems that are available now ?

On a sidenote can a Amiga 1200 be made complete from scratch based on what is available today from computer suppliers ?

If it can what would the specs be and how much ?

da9000

04-10-2007, 07:52 PM

scuzzb494 wrote:
PS: An Amiga is not junk. Quite insulting you know, particularly as this is supposedly an Amiga Forum. One reason why I have little time for this place.

scuzzb494, you're (were?) dealing with a moron that needs slaping, as his nickname suggests after-all!

Read on to realize the full extent of his stupidity:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=28110

And more about his "attitude" problems:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=28429

And yet more:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=28283
Lastly: you're a true Amigan! I hail thee! :-)

04-10-2007, 08:51 PM

da9000 wrote:

scuzzb494 wrote:
PS: An Amiga is not junk. Quite insulting you know, particularly as this is supposedly an Amiga Forum. One reason why I have little time for this place.

scuzzb494, you're (were?) dealing with a moron that needs slaping, as his nickname suggests after-all!

Read on to realize the full extent of his stupidity:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=28110

And more about his "attitude" problems:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=28429

And yet more:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=28283
Lastly: you're a true Amigan! I hail thee! :-)

Hey buddy, the first link also shows what kind of an emotional reactionary you are. I used the Amiga to earn money. What about you?

As for the third one, what would you do or say to somebody who couldn't care less that you were totally asleep when he called you and then had the guts to ask you to give him the phone number to the place where you have your stuff placed in storage?

I would like to point that other people actually thanked him for leaving more stuff to collect.

If scuzzb494 is a true Amigan then according to your definition, true Amigans want the machine to become a simple collectors item whose sole purpose is to decorate some "basement computer museum" instead of being a machine that serves a real purpose and is useful to actual applications and people.

True Amigans are people that make the machine evolve and get it to be useful and accessible, not retricted and stagnating.

scuzzb494

04-11-2007, 12:04 AM

Hi

>True Amigans are people that make the machine evolve and >get it to be useful and accessible, not retricted and >stagnating.

Which is point in fact. The emulator is not an Amiga machine it is an excuse for thinking your an Amigan when in fact you have given up on the hardware. I will never give up on the hardware. And if that makes me any less of an Amigan then I am sorry. I obviously evolved into something else. Given the choice of having my Amiga collection, which I use to the full with several machines active all the time networked with broadband available at all times to help ALL THOSE that communicate with me on a daily basis to constantly assist in maintaining actual red blooded Amigas, or perpertuating a bit of software which in years to come will not be able to access the vast resource of lost Amiga kit, then I stay true to my belief. All I ask is don`t destroy the kit please on the back of supposed progress. Cus the future that lies before us on the back of ' progress ' has driven us all up a very dark alley which has resulted in true Amigans dumping valuable kit. That bothers me greatly. I live, breath, sleep and struggle with the Amiga every spare minute of my life. I am dedicated to this platform. And one day folk will thank god I did. Remember my words. Whether I am Amigan or not. Your definition bothers me not. Time will tell.

scuzz
http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com

04-11-2007, 12:19 AM

scuzzb494 wrote:
Hi

>True Amigans are people that make the machine evolve and >get it to be useful and accessible, not retricted and >stagnating.

Which is point in fact. The emulator is not an Amiga machine it is an excuse for thinking your an Amigan when in fact you have given up on the hardware. I will never give up on the hardware. And if that makes me any less of an Amigan then I am sorry. I obviously evolved into something else. Given the choice of having my Amiga collection, which I use to the full with several machines active all the time networked with broadband available at all times to help ALL THOSE that communicate with me on a daily basis to constantly assist in maintaining actual red blooded Amigas, or perpertuating a bit of software which in years to come will not be able to access the vast resource of lost Amiga kit, then I stay true to my belief. All I ask is don`t destroy the kit please on the back of supposed progress. Cus the future that lies before us on the back of ' progress ' has driven us all up a very dark alley which has resulted in true Amigans dumping valuable kit. That bothers me greatly. I live, breath, sleep and struggle with the Amiga every spare minute of my life. I am dedicated to this platform. And one day folk will thank god I did. Remember my words. Whether I am Amigan or not. Your definition bothers me not. Time will tell.

scuzz
http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com

Okay... let's say I am a business and I need to buy 1500 Amiga computers tomorrow morning in order to run some video processing or 3D rendering business. Can you sell them to me? The plain answer is no.

Can I buy 1500 PCs and buy 1500 Cloanto Amiga Forecer licenses for it? Yes. And you can do that because it is a business that gives people a salary.

The people who made the Amiga live are people like Eyo Sama, Olusegun Olaniyan, Stephen Menzies and Suresh Sukhdeo. Why? Because they used it as a platform to deliver functionalities that no other computer could deliver.

Keeping the Amiga alive cannot be done be encouraging people to buy and utilise equipment which has been removed from production 13 years ago or more and are slowly vanishing but by doing NEW STUFF for it and by renewing it.

Look forward, not behind. The kit has already been destroyed. By saying to people that saving the Amiga amounts to collecting and using machines and softwares discontinued more than a decade you actually encourage the platform to become a sort of statue or mineral based idol.

That's certainly not what the people who created it in the first place intended it to be. They wanted it be and to bring forward the latest ideas.

Minuous

04-11-2007, 12:30 AM

Exactly. For the time being, the only way to get more Amigans is to get more people to emulate them. Storing Amigas in a basement, whether you use them or not, doesn't grow the userbase. No other community seems to have a problem with people emulating the relevant machine, only the Amiga community. I'm not sure why this is, it doesn't make much sense. If you could buy them, I could understand. Forcing people to pay money to those parasites Cloanto doesn't help the situation (or the Amiga) though, I can see why a lot of people just say to hell with it. Amino should release the other Kickstarts to the community, not just 1.3, they should be helping the Amiga community not hindering it.

scuzzb494

04-11-2007, 05:51 AM

Hi

Not really sure what you are trying to suggest. Are you saying that a production company in today’s market working on the big stage with other companies is likely to consider use of an Amiga Emulator for their working platform. Sorry but I am an architect by profession and we need to interact at every level with others in the marketplace and there is no way as a professional organisation we would consider such an option. Why would we want to emulate an Amiga 1500 sorry, don’t understand. There are far more capable pieces of hardware and software readily available to undertake a multitude of modern computer functions.

We are seriously at odds here cus I am talking about one thing and you keep harping on about the future of the Amiga. I care not about the possible future of an emulator, I am only interested in trying to maintain the hardware which I see being dumped on a quite regular basis, not because people are chasing your dream, but because they have grown despondent over the future of OS4 and the availability of new kit. Further, these folk, are seriously offended by their only option being that of an emulator. Whilst some see the emulator as an easy way of having some interface on a machine that purports to be an Amiga, most see this as a cop out and would prefer to have actual Amiga hardware, much in the way that they have been use to. Because of the failure of OS4 these folk have given up and now are dumping their kit. The fact that I collect is of little relevance, because what I do is try to help others maintain old Amiga kit. And hardware is what I do. Hardware. ( sorry ). You seem to think that by storing kit you diminish the significance of what I do. What I do is help others, and at each twist and turn try my desperate best to avoid more Amiga kit finishing up on the landfill. If we were to all adopt the emulator, there would be no reference material to relate to and that just isn’t gonna happen while folk like me are about.

And so, you enjoy your emulator and chase your dream, and encourage whoever to utilise this emulator to develop whatever, in whichever area of use ... all a bit vague cus I really can’t see what that would be for.. but hey what do I know. .. Saying that what I do know is what is tangible, what I can see, use, feel, maintain and enjoy and that’s the real thing .. Sorry. As I said before we agree to disagree. And I don't have a basement. I have a house and workshop with Amigas in every room all fully functioning, working with a variety of supportive kit and with a wealth of software, hardware and reference material at my disposal. And I don’t find this a hindrance with any application I choose to use on the machines. I love em all cus they are Amiga... flesh and blood.

And if that doesn`t make me an Amigan then so be it. I have an Amiga and that really is all that matters to me. And I will fight till the day I die to keep as many real Amigas alive as I possibly can..

You started your post referring to the Amiga 1500, well last night I was in a dark damp garage with a guy who had an Amiga 2000 rotting away. I paid good money for this machine and set to immediately on getting home to checking the computer over. The keyboard was broken which I replaced, and the battery was leaking which I removed. Other than that she was fine. All cleaned up and now functioning. Another six months and the battery would have destroyed the mother board. That is what I do.

scuzz

Minuous

04-11-2007, 07:54 AM

I actually have 4 real Amigas, one of them has an '060 in it, but I emulate mainly because it is faster. It doesn't mean I'm any less of an Amigan just because I use the fastest Amiga which is available to me, which happens to be a "hardware+software" solution rather than "hardware-only" solution.

I'm not suggesting you shouldn't repair or preserve Amigas. But this will only slow the rate of loss of them though, because they aren't being manufactured anymore. If we want new Amiga hardware then the userbase will need to be enlarged to a point where becomes economically viable to manufacturer them. The end goal is to get new "real" Amigas, surely you would see that as a desirable goal? (Or alternatively the OS will need to be ported to an already available hardware platform (eg. generic PPC boxes), Amino/Hyperion seem unwilling though.)

>Why would we want to emulate an Amiga 1500 sorry, don’t understand. There are far more capable pieces of hardware and software readily available to undertake a multitude of modern computer functions.

I'd disagree on the software part as far as operating systems go, it's far more productive to code for the logical and coherent AmigaOS API than to muck about with the overly clunky and convoluted Windows, Linux, etc. APIs.

You seem to be suggesting Amigas are useless; in that case why would you bother preserving them?

You would want to run an emulator of a particular machine for the same reason you would run a "real" instance of a machine: to run (and/or develop) software for that platform. And it makes the host platform more useful by extending the range of software that can be used on it. For example, I have and use emulators for about twenty platforms, there is no way I would have the space for all those machines.

>If we were to all adopt the emulator, there would be no reference material to relate to.

Not correct, the hardware is already well documented. Schematics and so forth are widely available. Emulator source code also has value as a further source of documentation of the emulated system. Amino probably has all the manufacturing blueprints, repairing Amigas won't help with that issue.

scuzzb494

04-11-2007, 11:50 AM

As I have said I would love to agree with you, but as a hardened Amiga user for too many years to remember now I do not see anything on my travels and communications with users in the UK to suggest that there is any growth what so ever in the use of software and possible new hardware. I only see the tail end of Amiga guys dumping their kit. I have been an active member on several Amiga groups for many years, and own my own group, and I do not see many folk at all taking up the emulator as an option for development. I can appreciate why people use the emulator if their main machine is a PC cus it makes life simpler. Also, yes they are faster. Not necessarily better though. But, my original comments stand.. and that is the emulator and OS4 are killing the classic Amiga. And its not just about the blueprints of an Amiga, I am talking about all the kit and software that was produced in support of the Amiga. None of which is of any referencing relevance without being able to be used in conjunction with an actual Amiga.

And an Amiga is not useless. It is truly a wonderful thing to behold with the emphasis on be'HOLD'... as in your two hands. I can appreciate the Amiga but not an emulation of one. Its about time we started to talk up the classic Amiga to generate interest in the platform again.

scuzz

04-11-2007, 08:06 PM

scuzzb494 wrote:
As I have said I would love to agree with you, but as a hardened Amiga user for too many years to remember now I do not see anything on my travels and communications with users in the UK to suggest that there is any growth what so ever in the use of software and possible new hardware. I only see the tail end of Amiga guys dumping their kit.

How do you save the Ford Mustang? By buying every 1960's unit you can find and driving them around as much as you can or by making a new one that uses modern technology and that people like?

Simple question isn't it?

AmigaHeretic

04-11-2007, 08:15 PM

..What we need is that our os is ported to Playstation 3 as soon as possible and then to the xbox360 and the wii.
Look at the opportunities...

Yeah let's look at the opportunities...

PS3 + XBOX360 + wii = a few million

x86 = A FEW BILLION!!

Yeah, lets look at the opportunities...

How much do I have to PAY "Sony" or "Microsoft" or "Nintendo" get the privilege to port to generic X86 hardware? They'll just let me do it for free? They're so nice. Ok, lets do it!! :-)
:-) :-) :-)

scuzzb494

04-12-2007, 12:08 AM

Hi

>How do you save the Ford Mustang? By buying every 1960's >unit you can find and driving them around as much as you >can or by making a new one that uses modern technology and >that people like?

Ford still exist don't they.

And as for recent comments... I take offence at swipes at what I do. I am doing my bit... What are all you driving your Emulators doing on a daily basis to keep the Amiga alive. Most using stuff downloaded free off the internet today are parasites contributing nothing to any kind of community. And loads frequent groups and forums as a form of entertainment taking side swipes at those that really care. I really do care, hence my passion at responding to these mails. And so I say... before you mail again with your sarcastic crap please, oh please would you like to tell me just what it is that you are actually doing to contribute. Honestly, I give up with you lot.

By the way... What do I do... I'll tell you what I do I send to a guy in Brazil a keyboard and mouse plus software free of charge to get his A2000 working again, I send to a guy in Spain a copy of a manual to get his beloved computer working again, I help a guy in New York with disks, I reunite a guy in California with a bit of software that he himself created and had lost, I rebuild broken and long forgotten hardware, and I am always on tap to contribute, assist, guide and fuel a love for a computer that is just a joy. It did once have a respective community, but it seems to dwell these days in the freebee, download, something for nothing society that frequent the internet in the belief that they are part of a ' communinity '. Most haven`t even got a clue. Trust me. Try getting out there on the front line for a change....

scuzz

Minuous

04-12-2007, 12:44 AM

I'm not sure what parts of that post were directed at whom.

>"What are all you driving your Emulators doing on a daily basis to keep the Amiga alive."

The games Worm Wars, Saga, and Africa, the emulators AmiArcadia and Handy, the utility Report+, character editors for 8 games, etc.

>Most using stuff downloaded free off the internet today are parasites contributing nothing to any kind of community.

I think they are called "users" :-) There would be no point in developing and uploading new software if there were not people downloading it, how else would it get into their hands?

I assume the "sarcastic crap", "swipes at what I do" remarks are not in regards to me, I do think it is important what you do.

However, what annoys me is the hostility shown by many against emulators. You don't hear people saying how terrible eg. spreadsheets are. Lots of commodore users (C64 and Amiga) seem to be like this, whereas in other communities people don't have this bias against emulators.

04-12-2007, 02:38 AM

scuzzb494 wrote:
Hi

>How do you save the Ford Mustang? By buying every 1960's >unit you can find and driving them around as much as you >can or by making a new one that uses modern technology and >that people like?

Ford still exist don't they.

They do because they didn't just sit on their asses expecting to use methods of production our grandfathers created. They MOVED ON to new stuff... and so should you.

You don't do any good to the Amiga by turning it into a decorative artefact. The only way for the Amiga to ever go back into production is to renew itself.

That's just what happened to the Mustang, and it's what happened to the Macintosh.

It is precisely because Irving Gould refused to invest in new developments that Commodore went down.

Emulation is ONE OF MANY possible forms of evolution. It does create virtual Amigas that are very real better performers than the real thing but there are other possible avenues.

Your way is to just keep collecting old incarnations of that machine. Go ask a real Macintosh fan if he'd want to go back to a Mac SE. He'd laugh right in your face.

All Mac fanatics I know love that machine precisely because it can do things no PC can in a business. I loved my 3000 back in the early 90's for exactly the same reason.

dammy

04-12-2007, 03:30 AM

Ford still exist don't they.

And Ford is in deep trouble because they refused to give the people what they wanted to buy, now Toyota is about pass them up in car sales. Why is Toyota about to pass up Ford in car sales? Because they ARE giving the people what they want, Ford isn't.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

Dammy

dammy

04-12-2007, 03:32 AM

All Mac fanatics I know love that machine precisely because it can do things no PC can in a business. I loved my 3000 back in the early 90's for exactly the same reason.

And today those same Mac fanatics are drooling over the 8 core machines?

Dammy

nbarnes

04-12-2007, 06:19 AM

I'm with Scuzzb494 on this one.
What is better? Looking at a Spitfire roaring through the skies or looking at a Spitfire in a flight simulation? What is better? Flying a real Spitfire or using a flight simulator?
In order to fly a real spitfire they have to be preserved, parts have to be found and people have to have the skills to do it. People like scuzz are keeping the Amiga alive.

A spitfire is no use in todays air-combat environment. Could you upgrade a spitfire to compete with say, an F-15? No. You'd have to create a new fighter to do that but then it wouldn't be a Spitfire would it?

To me, the Amiga was a groundbreaking piece of kit that was ahead of it's time and I have fond memories of using it and programming it and playing games on it etc.

I don't have any fond memories of using emulators (of any sort). Where's the charm...what's the point? It's all clever stuff but where does it take us? Emulators don't keep the Amiga alive, it's people like Scuzz that do.

Now, you could recreate the SPIRIT of the Amiga by releasing a cool OS on some cool, sexy kit (e.g OS4 on a PS3...don't shoot me!) but it still won't be an Amiga.

Preservation and Development are two entirely different things and I think that this site should be divided along those lines.

Bug_racer

04-12-2007, 06:30 AM

I prefer the fw-190 V18 U1

http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/fw190v18.htm

That was a work of art way ahead of its time :-P

nbarnes

04-12-2007, 08:28 AM

Bug_racer, surely the Me-262...surely...

Bug_racer

04-12-2007, 08:42 AM

Well the V18 was rumoured to make 4500 hp , it had NOS , twin turbo intercooled and methanol injection . It was scrapped cause of $$$$ and was unreliable , but this would have been the fastest piston engine plane of the war by far . It was built as a short range interceptor , so it flew in 30 min bursts .

The ME262 was the next level , I prefer to see the last of the old level stretched to the limit rather than the first of the new level . Kinda like seeing an Amiga 500 with accelerators , extra ram , hd's etc vs a stock 1200 if you know what I mean :-P

nbarnes

04-12-2007, 02:17 PM

Yeah, I know. Hmmm. What about the Hawker Sea Fury? Too late to see action in WWII but was shooting down Mig-15's in Korea..."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Sea_Fury". Surely the finest piston engined fighter of all time?

Bloody Hell! Planes AND Amigas. I need to lie down for a bit...

04-12-2007, 02:38 PM

nbarnes wrote:
I'm with Scuzzb494 on this one.
What is better? Looking at a Spitfire roaring through the skies or looking at a Spitfire in a flight simulation? What is better? Flying a real Spitfire or using a flight simulator?
In order to fly a real spitfire they have to be preserved, parts have to be found and people have to have the skills to do it. People like scuzz are keeping the Amiga alive.

A spitfire is a war machine that only highly skilled and trained people used to defend freedom.

The Amiga was and is a computer destined to be used by anyone with little or no training for a very wide variety of purposes.

According to your definition only a small handful of highly trained people should be allowed to use the Amiga. I resent this definition.

This is elitism and it should be fought off.

People like Scuzz contribute to turn the Amiga into an inert museum piece from a bygone era, like the Spitfire is.

Saving the Amiga implies making it alive and actual...

meega

04-12-2007, 02:42 PM

No, eslapion, the Spitfire was flown by young men with very little training.

nbarnes

04-12-2007, 02:56 PM

No No No. You misunderstand. People preserve all sorts of things, steam trains, cars etc. There is a PASSION there for the object in question.

I was making the point that a video or simulation of say, a steam train, is NOT the same as the real thing.

I recently heard an MP3 of the gamemusic for Hybris - my favourite game - emoted all sorts of memories. I saw Speedball on WinUAE, again it elicits memories. But it is NOT the same as using the REAL THING (where you can hear/feel the floppy drive "snarking", the green and red leds flashing on and off, the feel of the joystick.) An Amiga is NOT a window on anybodies screen, it is a PHYSICAL device that worked at a specific time and place that we had fun with. A simulation cannot do it justice. One day, that will be all we have. It's our job to postpone that day, not for anybody else but for ourselves.

04-12-2007, 03:18 PM

meega wrote:
No, eslapion, the Spitfire was flown by young men with very little training.

Spitfires might have been flown by young men with little training by I do remember, as I saw in many documentaries that pilots had to go through a very strict screening process were eyesight and hand-eye coordination was intensively tested.

Still, it was an airplane and certainly required a pilots license to fly.

And when was the last time you saw half the neighborhood bring home their new spitfire and brag about their latest add-ons and upgrades?

The Cessna 172-182 series is alive because... they are still being made and they are there for anyone who can afford them. THAT is keeping something alive.

scuzzb494

04-12-2007, 03:33 PM

Hi

>People like Scuzz contribute to turn the Amiga into an >inert museum piece from a bygone era, like the Spitfire is.

>Saving the Amiga implies making it alive and actual...

An you are contributing what ? Maybe you would like to share some of your Amiga credentials, or has the Amiga tag become so unfashionable in Amiga circles these days.

Quite insulting you know... But then I am starting to realise that the new emulator breed of Emugan has little regard for true Amiga users.

I am waiting for any one of you to PLEASE tell me exactly what YOU are doing to promote, develop, expand the Amiga into this wonderful hi flying modern world that you keep spouting on about. I have a Macintosh... works just fine. Where is my equivalent Amiga with Amiga dependant software. Where is my glorious OS4 and machine to drive it on. What the hell would I want an emulator for... My goodness listen to yourselves. Stop spouting words and start spouting facts. The Amiga community I grew up with actually did something about the Amiga world they lived in. Will just one of you please, please, please tell me just what the hell you are doing to further the Amiga and what will entice me to use an Amiga emulation. If by what I do I condemn the Amiga to a museum then please tell me what you are doing that makes my actives so wrong. For my part all I hear is you lot talking a good emulator but with very little actual substance. I guess at the end of the day you all went over to the dark side but have been afraid to admit to it. That's it isn't it. All driving your glorious PCs and think being on an Amiga group bad mouthing a classic Amiga user is good sport.

As I have said before I enjoy what I do and will continue to do so. But I just don`t want to keep going round guys houses picking up their kit cus they have grown totally despondent with the world you lot have created for the Amiga. You have failed.... trust me. Now prove me wrong.
Please I beg you. Go on explain just what exactly you are doing to live up to the activities of the vast Amiga community that went before you. Prove to me that you are worthy to fly the flag. And not just the great pretenders... or emulators.

scuzz
http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com

I drive an Amiga 4000T 100% proof.
Central Processing Unit: MC68060 49.9 MHz (rev 1)
1 WarpUP Processor(s): PPC 604e 200 MHz (rev 2.4), 66 MHz busclock
Floating Point Unit: 68060fpu 49.9 MHz
Memory Management Unit: 68060mmu running
Custom graphics chip: AGA Lisa 4203 (rev 0)
Custom animation chip: AGA PAL Alice 8374 2M (rev 3-4)
Other custom chip(s): Paula 8364 (rev 0), Ramsey (rev 15), Gary (rev 0)
Graphics system: Picasso96
Graphics board(s): Picasso IV [Paloma Concierto]
Soundcard(s): Concierto
Hardware Clock: clock + battmem found
Max. Chipmem available: 2048 K
Max. Fastmem available: 130048 K
ROM chip version: 45.20 (Kickstart 3.9)
Workbench version: 45.3 (Workbench 3.9)
SetPatch version: 44.38
Expansion board(s):
5001/6: individual Computers/VMC HyperCOM Z4 (@$00E90000 64k)
4626/23: individual Computers X-Surf (@$00EA0000 64k)
2167/24: Village Tronic Picasso IV (@$40000000 32M)
8512/100: Phase 5 Digital Products CyberStorm PPC/MK III SCSI (@$00F01060 128k)
Cyberstorm PPC serial #: DCC0270

A wonderful museum peace. :-)

dammy

04-12-2007, 05:13 PM

What is better? Looking at a Spitfire roaring through the skies or looking at a Spitfire in a flight simulation? What is better? Flying a real Spitfire or using a flight simulator?

I rather fly the Sim because I could never fly a real Spitfire. Go take a look at the annual costs of owning a Spitfire (annual inspection or 100 hour inspection or whatever is equal in the EU) which is above and beyond the actual (wet) flight costs. Since I am not a wealthy pilot, the only way I will ever fly it is in a Sim. The better the Sim is, the better I'll like it as a (civilian) pilot. I either fly it in Sim or never, not a tough choice huh?

It's era, like the Amiga, is over with. Cheerish the old memories, keep a few memories alive as apart of our history, and then move on.

Dammy

Minuous

04-12-2007, 05:58 PM

I'm not sure why you keep asking me the question I already answered previously? In any event, even if I didn't write software that wouldn't make me less of an "true Amigan", whatever that's supposed to mean.

Ooh, emulators are so evil aren't they. The fact that I have 4 Amigas seems to have escaped you, if I ever run a certain program I have gone to the "dark side". I could use the A1200/060 for development but it would take a lot longer waiting around for stuff to compile, less would end up getting released. Clearly you don't give a damn how much software is released, as long as you still have your room full of creaking hardware to fool around with.

>What the hell would I want an emulator for...

I already answered this.

>I just don`t want to keep going round guys houses picking up their kit cus they have grown totally despondent with the world you lot have created for the Amiga.

Eh, it's my fault people are throwing away Amigas? I think not, I have never encouraged anyone to do such things. You seem to have done no more for the Amiga than any other service technician, you've fixed a few machines, wow. I doubt you have preserved any software, for example.

I suppose you would also rather try to collect thousands of broken coin-ops rather than just get an emulator.

Don't fire up that evil emulator people! It will steal your soul! You will end up on the "Dark Side". Just one game, you will never be the same again.

I assume you never used A-Max, A64, PC-Task, etc. after all they are evil software. Same goes for AmigaOnes, they have an emulator for initializing the graphics card.

04-12-2007, 08:39 PM

scuzzb494 wrote:

...

An you are contributing what ? Maybe you would like to share some of your Amiga credentials, or has the Amiga tag become so unfashionable in Amiga circles these days.

...

I am waiting for any one of you to PLEASE tell me exactly what YOU are doing to promote, develop, expand the Amiga into this wonderful hi flying modern world that you keep spouting on about.

I paid for my license of OS 3.9, that's what I did...

You want my credentials?

I bought my first Amiga in early 1989. By late 1989, I was using it to publish a small B/W magasine for a religious organisation... even if I had no part in this organisation.

By 1991, I had a full time job in desktop publishing and I was operating a 100'000$ imagesetter and was actively promoting the use of the Amiga computer in this field.

In 1992, I upgraded to the Amiga 3000 with full Mac emulation and encouraged no less than a dozen people to buy Amigas for their own business. The religious organisation that allowed me to begin working on the Amiga also bought their own A3000 with a video toaster in it.

By 1994, my 3000 had an emplant and a Picasso II card in it but at that point it was obvious that commodore had no intention to make their OS keep up with what customers should have the righht to ask from a computer.

That's about when I discovered Windows NT ran lightwave and was better than using an emulated Mac on the Amiga. The Amiga refused to deliver and so it had to be put aside... Commodore had been successful at killing the Amiga.

Added edit:
================================================== ===
Before I went to NT, the Mac side of my Amiga was used more often than its native side because nothing new was developed for it. The Emplant along with the Picasso card had effectively "rescued" my Amiga by turning it into a color Macintosh.

However, the ZorroII speed of the Picasso II soon proved to be a major limitation. The ZorroIII cards were too expensive to consider.

What the hell would I want an emulator for... My goodness listen to yourselves. Stop spouting words and start spouting facts. The Amiga community I grew up with actually did something about the Amiga world they lived in. Will just one of you please, please, please tell me just what the hell you are doing to further the Amiga and what will entice me to use an Amiga emulation. If by what I do I condemn the Amiga to a museum then please tell me what you are doing that makes my actives so wrong. For my part all I hear is you lot talking a good emulator but with very little actual substance. I guess at the end of the day you all went over to the dark side but have been afraid to admit to it. That's it isn't it. All driving your glorious PCs and think being on an Amiga group bad mouthing a classic Amiga user is good sport.

As I have said before I enjoy what I do and will continue to do so. But I just don`t want to keep going round guys houses picking up their kit cus they have grown totally despondent with the world you lot have created for the Amiga. You have failed.... trust me. Now prove me wrong.
Please I beg you. Go on explain just what exactly you are doing to live up to the activities of the vast Amiga community that went before you. Prove to me that you are worthy to fly the flag. And not just the great pretenders... or emulators.

scuzz

Last monday, I transfered all the data from an A3000T to a PC and configured the PC to replicate exactly the same workbench and environment as was in the 3000T.

The owner of that 3000T, just like me, used the Amiga for business purposes. Before I transfered the stuff, he confessed to me that he was so pissed at having to fight his way to get the things he needed froom the Amiga that he really considered not even trying to sell it but just sending the thing to the scrap heap.

Once he saw how much more powerful and flexible the emulated environment was, he went back to using Amiga applications that don't exist on the PC but are too slow to be practical on the real machine.

Now THAT is keeping the Amiga alive.

Malakie

04-13-2007, 04:00 AM

Now you are just being down right insulting. This is an Amiga Forum I trust and I see no need to bad mouth the thing that I cherish and love. If you have such a problem with the A3000 then sell or give it to someone that will give it the respect it deserves and not kick the poor thing. You obviously are having problems understanding the concept of ' Classic Amiga '. If I wanted a new machine I would get one. I wouldn't have the same kind of hang ups that you have trying to turn a ' Classic Computer ' into something it aint. I really couldn't care less about the new age fraternity that still wallow around moping about cus their Amiga can`t do what a PC does, then populate the groups and forums bad mouthing anyone that still has a love affair with their computer. My last A4000T cost me £750 and I just love it to death. I could get a new computer for that... But I could do that any day of the week. Boring, pointless, moronic computing. Food without taste. My favourite A1200 with CDROM, ZIP, 2 SCSI HDs, Ethernet, etc etc still gives me more pleasure than any PC, but then you see I just love ' Classic Amigas '. My plea to folk with old kit is not dump it or destroy it, cus believe it or not there are folk like me that actually enjoy using a ' proper Amiga.'

So... Don't quote your upgrade options at me to demonstrate just how inferior an Amiga is to a PC. I don`t have any doubt about that. My world is the world of the ' Classic Amiga '. A world where the original hardware is sacred. And where as a community we do not bad mouth the very reason for why we exist. Do not forget that. I keep the faith and I will die holding that once proud flag.

' Participate. Don`t Emulate '

PS: An Amiga is not junk. Quite insulting you know, particularly as this is supposedly an Amiga Forum. One reason why I have little time for this place.

scuzz

I agree with you completely. I recently joined the community here after a long absence from the Amiga realm.

I have read a few messages that state PC's are way ahead of classic Amiga's.. I disagree completely. What has changed technically from the PC's out during the Amiga's heyday and the machines out today? Nothing! They are the SAME base system design they were back then. The only difference? The processors are faster and they use a re-written OS that allows for some semblence of task switching functionality.

If I could speed up my Amiga to match the clock speed of say a 2.8 gig dual core pc... and for sake of argument I will use OS 3.9 against the current Windows Vista... which machine would I be having a blast with? The Amiga no question. There is no way the PC would even be able to compete with an Amiga system running at that clock speed.

Now look at a classic Amiga. Sure it is utilizing a much slower clock speed. Sure it could use some graphic updates to the OS to clean things up and make it lighter to run.. but overall? The Amiga still blows away anything out there when it comes to raw computing of multiple tasks.

Had Commodore done a couple things different, we would probably all be using Amiga's with much faster processors, an AmigaDOS OS that would blow away anything out there yet would still retain the basic underlining kernal of the original AmigaDOS.

Commodore lost it when they released the A600 machine. I personally am still not sure who was responsible for even coming up with the design idea for the A600 (and I was privy to quite a bit back then since I worked for Commodore Amiga). For some reason they went backwards from the A500 instead of forward. For some reason they thought releasing the A300... er sorry A600 would be the right thing to do. No one thought about one little thing.. Why would people want to buy a lesser capable machine than the A500 especially since it has been on the market (the a500) for a while now?

They put a massive amount of money into that machine (A600) and it fell flat. Until the release of that machine CBM was still viable but that black hole was too much. When they released the A1200 and CD32 they made the right decisions.. but it was to late.. the slide was in freefall and CBM could not get enough units out to arrest the fall to the bottom. Had CBM been able to hold on even 6 months more, the A1200 and CD32 units would have probably saved Amiga's future... especially in light of what was in design planning for hardware and for AmigaOS at the time.

I have yet to see ANY machine run a full screen application that allows me to 'flip' it behind to run ANOTHER application full screen and then pull down the window to check the operation of the first app I ran... If there is a PC (or other system) I am not aware of in the personal computer market that does this, I for one have never heard of it.

And that is on a machine clocked at 7.14 mhz!

So yes, the Amiga is an old system and needs much to compete today against newer systems. But in many areas, it STILL can do things PC's only dream of.

As for emulators, I have no issue with them. In fact I have an older laptop that cannot run WinXP or Vista. One thing we never did at Commodore was come out with a Laptop Amiga. I have one now though thanks to the emulator setup! :-D

That laptop runs only a basic Windows install and is setup to basically boot into the Amiga mode from the start.. in essence giving me my Amiga Laptop!

Even today I get comments about how I am able to do some of the things I am doing on the machine.. they want to know what kind of computer that is when they see the OS operating. It is running OS3.9 and Amikit and I love it.

My girlfriends son did not even know what an Amiga was.. The first time he looked at that laptop his response was "So Cool!" How did you do that! Can I do that to my PC? :lol:

I know that someday my hardware will completely fail and I will not be able to fix it again. Thankfully I will still have the emulator to fall back on to continue my Amiga capable operations. Will it be the same as using my actual hardware? No.. but then what choice will I have?

I have been reading about this new Amiga hardware and the new OS4... but if I understand, the wait has been a couple years now for these 'new' designs?! Being that I just getting back into the Amiga community I am not really up to speed on this so please feel free to clue me in.

I do not care what the hardware is that runs AmigaOS as long as it retains the multi-tasking and video capabilities we have all known for so long. I could only imaging a dual core or quad core box running AmigaOS.... what a dream! Or is this actually a possibility with the new things I am reading about?

Malakie

Malakie

04-13-2007, 04:07 AM

scuzzb494 wrote:
Hi

And as to flogging a dead horse... You lot are really amusing, honestly, sometimes. I go now... Not frustrated waiting for the next best thing which will never be able to compete with the PCs currently on the market, or waiting for someone to port the Amiga to something, or waiting for some kind company to actually fulfill one of the trillion promises about the Amiga and ' The next best thing ', and certainly not frustrated enough to keep going on endlessly about what should happen to the Amiga... My goodness. Life is far too short. Instead I will joy at mucking around with my Amigas...

scuzz
http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com

Like you, I too am waiting for the next 'something' to come out that allows the world to leave windows and pc systems behind. So many people do not realize that a PC today is the same hardware as a pc from yesterday. The same basic design just faster. Sure there are new port types, usb, different video cards and faster memory. But they are still all based on the same basic design principal.

Also, did I read your message correctly? Are you also ex-CBM?

Malakie

Malakie

04-13-2007, 04:12 AM

"Commodore C386SX-LT Laptop"

GADS! Where did you find one of those?? I completely forgot about that machine.

I would love to have one of those.. sigh.

Malakie

Malakie

04-13-2007, 04:35 AM

scuzzb494 wrote:
scuzz
http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com

I drive an Amiga 4000T 100% proof.
Central Processing Unit: MC68060 49.9 MHz (rev 1)
1 WarpUP Processor(s): PPC 604e 200 MHz (rev 2.4), 66 MHz busclock
Floating Point Unit: 68060fpu 49.9 MHz
Memory Management Unit: 68060mmu running
Custom graphics chip: AGA Lisa 4203 (rev 0)
Custom animation chip: AGA PAL Alice 8374 2M (rev 3-4)
Other custom chip(s): Paula 8364 (rev 0), Ramsey (rev 15), Gary (rev 0)
Graphics system: Picasso96
Graphics board(s): Picasso IV [Paloma Concierto]
Soundcard(s): Concierto
Hardware Clock: clock + battmem found
Max. Chipmem available: 2048 K
Max. Fastmem available: 130048 K
ROM chip version: 45.20 (Kickstart 3.9)
Workbench version: 45.3 (Workbench 3.9)
SetPatch version: 44.38
Expansion board(s):
5001/6: individual Computers/VMC HyperCOM Z4 (@$00E90000 64k)
4626/23: individual Computers X-Surf (@$00EA0000 64k)
2167/24: Village Tronic Picasso IV (@$40000000 32M)
8512/100: Phase 5 Digital Products CyberStorm PPC/MK III SCSI (@$00F01060 128k)
Cyberstorm PPC serial #: DCC0270

A wonderful museum peace. :-)

MUSEUM piece... HELL!!! Can I have it? :-D It won't sit in no museum.. I'll be in Amiga heaven again with a setup like that! Oh to dream...

After reading that spec I am looking at these two Amigas here I grabbed outta the trash and they look very ... well let's just say the hodge podge of wires and stuff I put together to get one working.. kind of... does not compare to your system! :boohoo:

All my original Amiga hardware was lost in a house fire a number of years ago.. Many times over the years I have wished I could have that stuff back.. I have used the emulator since then because I had no other way of working with Amiga stuff until I found these junk units.

Using the emulator at least allowed me to continue using some software packages that I still use today on a daily basis. Nothing on the PC can compare to these packages in my opinion. Now hopefully I will once again get at least one stable running Amiga going again and will be able to fully enjoy that which I have missed.. using a REAL Amiga again.

You can not imagine what I lost... I had at least one of almost every CBM product made at one point that burned up plus and including all the products developed by the company I was with after I left CBM to develop Amiga software and hardware. I still miss my Commodore SX-64 computer. That was one of my favorites even with my Amigas. (Anyone know where I can get one?)

Keep up your search and your collecting. Some of us out here would love to be right there with you.

Malakie

scuzzb494

04-14-2007, 11:08 AM

>Keep up your search and your collecting. Some of us out >here would love to be right there with you.

You would have loved to have been with me today. I got a mail from a guy in Bristol who is emigrating and dumping all his kit. He hadn't tried to sell it just asked some guys if they would dump it for him. Anyway, these guys wanted a load of money to clear it so he found my name from the internet and asked me if I wanted it. I spent the morning in his garage, and sadly wasn't able to bring everything back with me... But suffice to say I grabbed all the computers. Remember that this guy was junking this lot and had I not been active as a collector and with a website to support this he would never have found a home for this kit. The following is a summary.. I haven't been through all the boxes yet...

Checkmate 1500 complete and in original box
A4000 040 Desktop with harddrive and 3.9
A4000 in a tower with PicassoIV, PolomaIV and Concierto
A1200 Magic Pack
A1200 boxed with Magnum RAM8 plus 85Mb hard drive
A1200 with accelerator unknown
A1200
A1200
A1200
A500 with Power Computing RAM plus wired internally
A500 with XtraRAM A500+
A500
A500
A500+
A500+
NewTek Tapeless Video Toaster Boxed mint
Video Toaster 4000 Toaster 4.2 boxed mint
NewTek Video Toaster 4 point zero boxed mint
CDTV plus keyboard and masses if discs
CDRom plus Squirrel Interface
A590 hard drive
2 x A4000 floppy drives
A1200 HD
Action Replay MkII
A570 drive
5.25" drive
Two Goliath power supplies
Power Computing external HD
Masses of cables, mice, joysticks etc
Blizzard 1230IV New and boxed
RCA1 RAM expansion
2 x A500 Workstations
KCS Power Board
Pablo Video Encoder
Elbox Fast ATA 1200
Power Computing 4 Way buffered interface boxed unopened
C64 Nightmoves boxed
C64 Light Fantastic boxed
C64C
C64C
Commodore MPS801
1541 Disk Drive
Several C2N Tape Cassette Drives
CDTV Genlock Module
A4000 030 68020/030 spare board
C64 Assembly Language
C64 Basic Programming by Dr Watson
Both these are massive.
A500 Manuals and books
GVP A500HD+ sidecar
XTDrive
Several external drives
External 2 bay height external drive
STFax
Many Amiga mice
Octamed Sound Studio Manual
Picasso IV Manual
PabloIV Manual
PolomaIV Manual
Concierto Manual
Turbo Print 6
Massive box of C64 Games and books
Loads of C64 games, tapes books
ie...
Ghostbusters 1 and 2
The Hobbit
The Tolkien Trilogy
Terminator 2
Taito Coin Op
Italia World Cup Soccer
WEC LeMans
Can You Find the Real You
Wargame Construction Set
Daley Thomson Challenge
Lord of the Rings
Vlahalla
Combat Lynx
Football Manager 2
etc etc

I really haven`t had time to go through
everything yet. That's just a summary. I
am really quite worn out... And I left half
of it there. Sad that.

Happy days.. And that my friends is what I do.
Classic. I guess I know there is a place in life
for an emulator... But I just can`t abide kit being
junked. I just love it.

scuzz
http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com

PS: I already had a room full of stuff to add to the
collection this session without this lot, so imagine
just how much work I have to put in to get the stuff
logged and photographed for the next web update. Its
a massive undertaking... but enjoyable.

Malakie

04-14-2007, 02:43 PM

Cripes!

Since it appears The Veterans Administration is retiring me at the ripe old age of 45, it is to bad you and I do not live closer... I would join your cause! Just to once again look at some of my past would be unbelieveable.

If you need anyplace to "store" anything, you just let me know. I have 26 acres of land and two large sheds not in use at the moment! :-D Even my dogs find something new to explore everyday out here! :lol:

Anyhow, now that I am back into perhaps I will get lucky and find some of these 'sources' of equipment you seem to be very adept at.

Malakie

WotTheFook

04-14-2007, 03:02 PM

@ Scuzz,

I don't want to build your hopes up too much, but I think there's a very good chance that my mother in law still has a 32K Commodore Pet computer (that I gave to my niece years ago when she lived there) in her loft, it was fully working and should still be working, any interest in it for your collection....???

WotTheFook

scuzzb494

04-15-2007, 04:59 AM

And Finally...

Hi

Sitting having a cuppa and gazing over all the kit strewn
all over the place, you come to realise that what made
the eighties and early nineties so wonderful for those
that grew up in computing, was that to make stuff work
you had to get seriously involved. And cus there were
limitations on kit you had to tinker. And there was a great
joy in celebrating to the world just what you had done.
But if you can imagine early computing like a storm, then
the wind and rain have subsided and what we are left with
is a refinement now of what we already know. Same goes
for any technology.. ie the motor car. Everything at the start
was ground breaking but now it really is just about refining
what we know... And to the point. Well, computing was
accessible, but also it was interesting and stimulating cus
there wasn't the later advancements. The joy was cheating
the kit to get more out of it. Today, there really isn't the
challenge, and there are far more interesting things to
stimulate, all be it not in a very creative way ie music downloads,
online gaming, etc etc. Kids are stimulated in a different way
and rarely question the physical attributes of the hardware
and software... It just works. We shouldn't complain, after
all this is their time. What is sad, is that that vast army of
computer bedroom jockeys have all but given up the ghost
and I guess thats why I am sitting awash with my own
storm of old C64s, 500s, 1200s and a maze of disk drives
and cables. Times have changed...

Fortunately, I can recall how it was. And I still get a kick from
it...

scuzz

I'm happy.. I just found a manual for the Catweasel Mk2.. PDF anyone ?

scuzz
http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com

TheMagicM

04-15-2007, 06:49 AM

I'd rather use a emulator. I have a few Amiga's stored away which I'll eventually put on e-bay. The one thats constantly hooked up is my trusty Amiga 500. If I want to play AGA games, I'll use E-UAE. Thats mostly what I use the Amiga for..games.

If I was using it for anything else, I'd rather use a emulator for the versatility it affords me and how much $ it saves by using it. (instead of buying a cybervision card, I can emulate a gfx card..if I want more HD space, I allocate more on my local hd. if I want more speed, I adjust settings etc).

The "isnt it better using the real thing" phrase.. if something breaks..it costs too much to fix.. so I'd rather sell off what I have for max $ on ebay because those prices are not worth fixing old equipment.

scuzzb494

04-15-2007, 07:48 AM

Hi

>I'd rather use a emulator. I have a few Amiga's stored >away which I'll eventually put on e-bay.

What happens to all your disks, mags, software, add-ons drives etc will you sell them job lot or will you sell in bits. I'm just thinking of the effort you must have put in putting you kit together, to both let it go and to subsitute this with the emulator. The emulator isn`t that cost hungry so are you so strapped for space you can`t keep some of your kit. Folk will buy your kit, as you know, but it will never be the same in the hands of someone else. I just hope you won`t regret it. The quote that I actually hear more than anything else is............. ' I use to have one of those... I do wish I'd hung on to it ' A thing of beauty is a joy forever. They will bury me with my Amiga.

scuzz

WotTheFook

04-16-2007, 01:28 PM

I am just the opposite, I had an A600 and regretted parting with it as you said, because of this, I have a new A600, with an A1200, a poorly A500+ and an A500 in good nick on the way to me, courtesy of Fleabay, all because I want to play games and stretch my aging mind with startup-sequences and loading devices, rather than sitting waiting for Installshield to do it all for me...it's the challenge that keeps my mind active, otherwise I would be just browsing the Net all evening turning my mind to porridge...it's like restoring an old car without the grief of skinned knuckles and dirty hands.

Merlin

TheMagicM

04-16-2007, 01:31 PM

scuzz:
I have transferred ALOT to my pc..almost all of my software is on a few DVD's so the software is always there. I didnt buy all that I have. Some people give their stuff away at low cost, some want to throw it away so I just drove over to their houses and picked it all up. I'm not going to sell it all.. I will keep 1 A4k, 1 A3k, 1 A500 and a few parts just in case one breaks (ie. spare A4k mobo, a500 mobo).. I want a MINT A1000..that has eluded me so far. I have a mint A500 which I treasure.

scuzzb494

04-16-2007, 04:49 PM

Hi

I know just what you mean. There really is a lot of joy to be had playing with the old kit. I always have a project on the go and spend most weekends with the Amiga. One thing you can do is load up DICE and muck around with programming from the SHELL. I have this book called the Complete Amiga C and I am steadily working my way through it. I also have the A500 set up with a sidecar and have many an hour just working with the limitations of 1.3. You don`t have to be driving in the fast lane all the time to have fun. You really just have to leave the old Pentium behind and work with the classic kit. If you wanna see what this is like then just pick up an old Amiga mag from Ebay and have a look at all the goodies that use to be in the sweet shop. Then go get the kit. Set up the machine with an accelerator then SCSI. Learn how to configure a CDRom drive with the long file names. Configure mount lists and add another drive. And then maybe set up a ZIP drive. And don`t take the easy way out with 3.9, try 3.0 and work the OS. It really is a very rewarding challenge. I just love it.

Anyway have fun with what ever your driving. Computing really is a bit more than just downloading music and surfing. Just check out the multitude of old PD disks for the Amiga. My goodness, folk use to be a load more creative.

scuzz
http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com

Bug_racer

04-16-2007, 05:46 PM

My goodness, folk use to be a load more creative.

I totally agree with you there . Apart from faster machines and slightly better programs very little has changed with computers in general since 1994 . Im so glad I got out of the scene when Amiga went down , all my mates regret staying some with crappy wages or high workload or both ! I just wish Amiga came back and will start the innovation cycle again !

Malakie

04-16-2007, 06:21 PM

Bug_racer wrote:
My goodness, folk use to be a load more creative.

I totally agree with you there . Apart from faster machines and slightly better programs very little has changed with computers in general since 1994 . Im so glad I got out of the scene when Amiga went down , all my mates regret staying some with crappy wages or high workload or both ! I just wish Amiga came back and will start the innovation cycle again !

Totally agree. I really tried to not have to make the decision I did back then but I knew if I did I would sink as well. So Ralph and I found jobs for everyone and we shut the doors just before the collapse. I went back to military life then later on to law enforcement and Ralph continued with his other second job he had never left in the first place.. an Enginner working for a major Dept of Defense weapons testing lab.

Kind of funny we were both military affiliated ... he came to Amiga due to Mechforce and I came to Amiga after working for Commodore which I joined while on medical hiatus from military duties due to injuries. In fact, it is quite a coincidence that I was cleared for duty again just before the decision was made to get out of Amiga development.

Malakie

Bug_racer

04-16-2007, 06:44 PM

I totally agree with you there . Apart from faster machines and slightly better programs very little has changed with computers in general since 1994 . Im so glad I got out of the scene when Amiga went down , all my mates regret staying some with crappy wages or high workload or both ! I just wish Amiga came back and will start the innovation cycle again ![/quote]

Totally agree. I really tried to not have to make the decision I did back then but I knew if I did I would sink as well. So Ralph and I found jobs for everyone and we shut the doors just before the collapse. I went back to military life then later on to law enforcement and Ralph continued with his other second job he had never left in the first place.. an Enginner working for a major Dept of Defense weapons testing lab.

Kind of funny we were both military affiliated ... he came to Amiga due to Mechforce and I came to Amiga after working for Commodore which I joined while on medical hiatus from military duties due to injuries. In fact, it is quite a coincidence that I was cleared for duty again just before the decision was made to get out of Amiga development.

Malakie
[/quote]

So you use to work at Amiga , I gotta put my hat down to you man , you made mine and a lot of my friends childhood really really enjoyable and made the world at the time so much better .

Just a quick question for ya , did you guys ever research into doing Amiga laptops ?

Malakie

04-16-2007, 06:56 PM

Bug_racer wrote:

So you use to work at Amiga , I gotta put my hat down to you man , you made mine and a lot of my friends childhood really really enjoyable and made the world at the time so much better .

Just a quick question for ya , did you guys ever research into doing Amiga laptops ?

Heh made your childhood eh... I didn't work at Commodore for work.. I went for FUN! Being an Amiga nut, the best way I could really enjoy the system was to get into the company itself. It was funny because when I was sent home for medical, it was Commodore that tracked ME down and asked me to join them...

I had never talked to anyone or pursued anything on my own due to my military affiliation then so it was a bit of a shock that the company making the machine I just loved to use and tinker with came looking for me to work for them.. It was AWESOME! I got to play with things all you only dreamed about back then! It was soooooo cool.

I just wish I had not lost ALL that stuff I accumulated in a house fire. I had some one of a kind things even...adapter boards, drives, even an original serial numbered A1000 (#24), a CDTV #9 and a CD-32 unit (can't remember what serial # was on that).

I also had things like a Xetec external Harddrive serial #2 as well as a few other 3rd party items.

Actually there was talk about it (Amiga Laptop) but it never went past that stage that I am aware of. Could probably ask Dave (Dave Haynie) and he would know although I have not talked to him in years either.

Malakie