Yahweh's wife

[Will-i-am]

Here's a good question for religious scholars: who is the female counterpart to Yahweh? I ask this because it is clear in the scriptures that the god of the Jews, Christians, and I dare say, the Muslims, that the god they worship is male. He is always spoken of in the male gender, except for when the statement is made that we are created in His image, male and female. That suggests an androgynous god. But by and large He is refered to as male. So what happened to the female part? It's pointless to have a male god with no female goddess to work with all those female aspects of the universe, and I have read a number of very good papers on the concept of a female half to those religions, but I haven't yet gotten a good idea of the name of that Goddess.

One suggestion was Lilith, Adam's first 'wife'. Another article suggested that Eve was demoted from Goddess to mere consort of the first man. Has anybody else found information about the female counterpart to Yahweh?

Some stories of Creation have the universe being created from a masturbating God, but I have to think that if a deity has a penis and testicles, that there must have been a place to put that penis. If nothing else you have to concede that a masturbating Yahweh would have been fantasizing about some female Deity, right? What was Her name? Did They break up? Was it a one night stand and He never called Her back? That would explain a lot. Anybody out there get Her number? I have some questions and He isn't returning my calls.

[cecilia]

men make god in their own image

[smithy]

Will-i-am wrote:
Here's a good question for religious scholars: who is the female counterpart to Yahweh? I ask this because it is clear in the scriptures that the god of the Jews, Christians, and I dare say, the Muslims, that the god they worship is male. He is always spoken of in the male gender,


I was watching a documentary about this very issue a few weeks ago. Basically, at the beginnings of the 3 main monotheoistic religions, it showed that all of them had either a female God or a female counterpart to God. It then went on to show that the male-dominated establishment of each of the religions suppressed the female element.

Can't remember what they said about Judaism, but real Christianity, before it was b*stardized by the male-centric catholic church and turned into a Pagan hybrid had a several major female elements. And Islam, before it was turned into something resembling Victorian England by the Shia and Sunni, wasn't afraid of women either: this pre-hijacked version of Islam lives on with the Sufi Muslims who have a female God.

Women's importance in religion have been rubbed away by bigots and frightened old prudish men.

'He' is merely a linguistic restriction. Allah is neither male nor female. 'Say: He is Allah, the one and only. Allah, the eternal, absolute. He begets not, nor is he begotten: and there is none like unto him.' Qur'an 112:1-4

I can assure you smithy that sufis *do not* have a female god, nor a male one either for that matter! LA ILAHA IL'ALLAH.

[Will-i-am]

nicholas wrote:
I can assure you smithy that sufis *do not* have a female god, nor a male one either for that matter! LA ILAHA IL'ALLAH.

Seriously, Nicholas, and with all respect, that is interesting. I have a few Muslim friends but we haven't had much opportunity to talk about religion. In fact, I have been trying to get a decent translation of the Koran to read, bearing in mind, of course, that to truly study the book you should read it in the original language. I am unable to learn other languages anymore to a great extent, thanks in large part to the effect of the pain medications I am on. Very little short term memory.

So, then, in your faith the Diety is neither male, nor female. I know that most scholars of the Big Three religions assert that at some level it is understood that the Diety is neither male nor female, but perhaps both in one. That is how the Tree of Life is portrayed. The concept was explained to me that we cannot understand the One and so we deal with the aspects of the One that we can understand. In the Pagan faith to which I am involved we understand that the Creator of the universe must be neither male nor female in order to incorporate all the aspects of creation. Only biological beings need sex.

My question still remains, however. Those who worship the diety refered to as Yahweh invariably refer to Him as 'Him' and very early documents hint at a female counterpart. I am very curious if anyone has an idea as to the name of that Goddess. In point of fact, as I understand it the 'Yahweh' refered to is not a name per se, but consists of 4 letters contained in His name. In one paper it was stated that the actual name of the Jewish god was known only to the high priest of the Temple, and when the Babylonians destroyed the Temple they killed that person before he could teach the name to his successor. I find that concept very interesting, that a group of people would pray to a god using not His actual name, but the remnant of His name.

Joseph Campbell suggested that the semites came from a region of the world where they worshipped a volcano god, or perhaps a storm god. I would think that the region would retain some bit of information regarding the feminine diety that would have been His counterpart. Any suggestions?

[SamuraiCrow]

@Will-i-am

The bride of christ referred to in the scriptures is the body of believers: the true Church.

[Vincent]

cecilia wrote:
men make god in their own image
So, how do women make god? ;-)

[nadoom]

I ask this because it is clear in the scriptures that the god of the Jews, Christians, and I dare say, the Muslims, that the god they worship is male.

In Arabic and Islam, the word Allah is a genderless construct. The word God on the other hand isnt. Muslims also beleive that the angels are genderless, also.

Allah often refers to himself as nahnu (we), it is used in the same context as the queen when "she says we are not amused", as regards the use of 'he' its really a matter of logic.

Muslims are careful not to anthropromorphosiese (?) God, as this is unacceptable since God is God and Man is a the creation of God. All we know about god is what is written about him in the Quran and Sunnah, and anything else is conjecture.

You can find transilations of the quran online, or if you want the physical book im sure you could head down to a mosque that does dawah work and get one for free of them, they would probably really appriecate you wanting to know more.

And Islam, before it was turned into something resembling Victorian England by the Shia and Sunni, wasn't afraid of women either: this pre-hijacked version of Islam lives on with the Sufi Muslims who have a female God.

Thats nonsense, the role of women in islam is taught and documented among people that actually know the religion. Its the morons who put their cultural practices before islamic practices that discount the role of women.

Regarding sufis and female gods (never heard of that myself) any person who ajoins partners with Allah is not a muslim. One god is the central pillar of islam i dont see how you can then say that the pre hijacked version had a female god.. poor research maybe

[cecilia]

Vincent wrote:

cecilia wrote:
men make god in their own image
So, how do women make god? ;-)there is no god

[Speelgoedmannetje]

It then went on to show that the male-dominated establishment of each of the religions suppressed the female element.Well, Maria is a christian adaptation of a pagan godess.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

cecilia wrote:

Vincent wrote:

cecilia wrote:
men make god in their own image
So, how do women make god? ;-)there is no godQuite a ZEN approach :lol:

[Will-i-am]

@SamuriCrow

I'm not sure Joshua ben Joseph, aka Jesus, would have refered to his followers as his bride. None of the writings contained in the Bible were written anywhere near his time and all were shaded by the political times in which the author lived. That's one reason they differ on significant points. Personally I have a few theories backed up by speculation and some research about that radical rabbi and his extended family. Still, we don't have any more information on the female counterpart to the Jewish diety.

I come to this question after reading a number of texts which did not make it into the Bible as well as writings from surrounding cultures. Monotheism is extremely rare in the region and never very successful. Looking at the Catholics from the outside it is obvious that they worship a huge number of gods. They get around the problem by calling some of them saints, but realistically if you build altars for them and pray to them and make offerings to them then they have become deified even if they were ever human. Some of them started out as pagan gods and just went through a wardrobe change and a name change, especially the females.

[Will-i-am]

@Nadoom
Your points on Islam are often overlooked, especially in these Crusader days. My Muslim friends have made these points many times. It seems to me that we are witnessing the fragmentation of that faith into at least two or three new religions and it is interesting to see that like Judaism and Christianity splitting up due to politics and philosophical divergences, Islam is breaking up to satisfy the political aspirations of a few powerful men.

As a Pagan who prefers to address the One in Her female role, I'm always looking for and finding examples of the continuous battle to keep women in a lessor role in society. For instance, although women are considered more or less equal to men it's always the women who have to hide their faces from men rather than training the men to keep their lust under control. The fanatics who would stone a rape victim as an adultress are obviously not practicing Islam, merely dominating females as property. In so many ways we humans are not far evolved from our furrier ancestors.

[nadoom]

I'm always looking for and finding examples of the continuous battle to keep women in a lessor role in society.

I find many such examples in western society, for example why do some women feel it nessesary to wear a mini skirt in the depths of winter when i and most men are dressed in snug attire.

I find the notion of paying women only 80% of what a man is paid in the private sector employment, very puzzling.

I find it equally bizzare that if a woman expresses freedom to cover herself she is branded as oppressed by men, forbidden education and work, but when women are selling cars in their underwear they are liberated, maybe having to expose your body to sell cars is oppressive.

Islam has been fragmenting since the prophet Mohammed (pbuh) died, indeed its the nature of man to create divisions between them and other men. Extremism has been present in islam since early on, and it has always been a tiny percentage of people to practise it.

During the time before Islam in arabia, women were literally bought and sold, and had no right to property, and the men buried their female babies alive in the sand (as is done in modern day india). The first ever martyr of islam was in fact a woman called sumaya who was tortured to death. As for stoning to death a rape victim, that is also the work of twisted crazy men.

[SamuraiCrow]

Will-i-am wrote:
@SamuriCrow

I'm not sure Joshua ben Joseph, aka Jesus, would have refered to his followers as his bride. None of the writings contained in the Bible were written anywhere near his time and all were shaded by the political times in which the author lived. That's one reason they differ on significant points. Personally I have a few theories backed up by speculation and some research about that radical rabbi and his extended family. Still, we don't have any more information on the female counterpart to the Jewish diety.

I come to this question after reading a number of texts which did not make it into the Bible as well as writings from surrounding cultures. Monotheism is extremely rare in the region and never very successful. Looking at the Catholics from the outside it is obvious that they worship a huge number of gods. They get around the problem by calling some of them saints, but realistically if you build altars for them and pray to them and make offerings to them then they have become deified even if they were ever human. Some of them started out as pagan gods and just went through a wardrobe change and a name change, especially the females.

In the Old Testament prophecies God referred to Israel as a wayward wife. He even had one of his prophets marry a prostitute as a living example to Israel what their unfaithfulness to Him was like.

As for the books that never made it into the Bible, many of them were written by Gnostics that belived that there was a hierarchy of knowledge and there were many books written dating to around 300 A.D. that claimed to have secrets that only a few people were to know. When these writings were made public it was easy to trace their age and then discount them fully because they couldn't have been written by their proported authors centuries earlier.

I agree with what you said about Roman Catholocism, however. The accounts of the resurrection were blended with an ancient Babalonian myth about a queen named Ishtar whose son, Tamuz, was supposedly resurrected. That's where the name of the Easter holiday comes from. (Not to mention that the bunny and eggs were derived from an ancient fertility ritual celebrated on the vernal equinox.) That's why I don't consider many Roman Catholics to be Christian at all.

[Wilse]

cecilia wrote:

Vincent wrote:

cecilia wrote:
men make god in their own image
So, how do women make god? ;-)there is no god

I tend to agree. Just can't rule it out, hence describing myself as agnostic, albeit a baw-herr from atheist.

On another point, which I don't believe Christianity, Islam or Judaism have ever properly clarified, who was Cain getting jiggy with?

[Wilse]

I don't consider many Roman Catholics to be Christian at all.

I don't consider many people to be very 'Christian' (in the way I understand the word) at all.

"There was only one true Christian, and he died on the cross." (Friedrich Nietzsche)

[cecilia]

Wilse wrote:
On another point, which I don't believe Christianity, Islam or Judaism have ever properly clarified, who was Cain getting jiggy with?maybe Cain went both ways and was getting it on with Adam AND Eve!


:lol:

[Wilse]

You mean he was the first, ever motherf*cker? :-o

[Speelgoedmannetje]

Wilse wrote:
On another point, which I don't believe Christianity, Islam or Judaism have ever properly clarified, who was Cain getting jiggy with?Or Noah?

[cecilia]

Wilse wrote:
You mean he was the first, ever motherf*cker? :-o he probably invented the word :-D

[Will-i-am]

"As for the books that never made it into the Bible, many of them were written by Gnostics that belived that there was a hierarchy of knowledge and there were many books written dating to around 300 A.D. that claimed to have secrets that only a few people were to know. When these writings were made public it was easy to trace their age and then discount them fully because they couldn't have been written by their proported authors centuries earlier."

There's a great book you might want to check out: "The Other Bible" edited by Willis Barnstone. It has the Gnostic texts as well as many other writings which were not included in the Bible. You're wrong about the age, however. MOst of the writings were actually done more or less about the same time as the books that made it into the Bible. Gnostics were around before, during and after the time of Christ and wrote a great deal of very interesting bits. One concept that I find fascinating is theirattitude over Yahweh's putting souls into mortal bodies. Seems they consider that to be a very nasty trick, condemning what had been immortal souls to a life of pain and eventual death. They also find His ego overbearing in requiring those poor mortals to fear and worship Him, even to the point of demanding blood sacrifices. In point of fact, some of the Gnostics decalre that Yahweh is none other than Satan, for his lies, tricks, and other nasty behavior. Reading the Old Testament I find it hard to argue that one.

Regarding Tamuz and Ishtar, She corresponds to Isis in some respects, and Mariam, or Mary, in others. A lot of the details of Christ's supposed resurrection are ripped right from those tales, even to the 3 days underground. It's a very old story that the Son of the Mother of Life should die and be reborn, eventually coming from the earliest so-called nature religions' observation of the seasons.

I have to say, though, that it is not entirely accurate to say the symbols refer to a fertility ritual. Insofar as life from death is a form of fertility, nevertheless it brings up sexual connotations that are misleading. Fecundity would be a more accurate term.

The egg and serpent patterns are found in Neolithic pottery, as are the rabbit, stag and fish. Male symbols are usually smaller and to one side but the female parts are usually dominant. Maria Gimbutas has an excellent book titled "The Language of the Goddess" which goes into fine detail on their use. You could also compare the story of Inanna's descent to the underworld to that of Dante's Inferno.

I'm convinced that if we could pry out the earliest attributes of Yahweh and trace them to the region from whence the Jews originated we could figure out who His wife was. He really must have had one. Too many documents hint at it and besides which, monotheism is a relatively late religious concept. The earliest would have derived a concept of divine creation as coming from male and female. That's the way all the other living things come about. It's only after you have generations of expanding the concept of a diety that you begin to think about the union of all things in the idea of a single entity. At that point, however, the One is unapproachable and you have to deal with It's composite parts, going from Kether to Chokmah and Binah and on down the Tree. (Please forgive the spelling, but I don't have a Hebrew font.)

[Will-i-am]

My uncle is a minister and my sister in law a nun. I've talked over this idea with them a bit, as well as with a few followers of other faiths and the bit of Cain going off and raising a nation is a bit sticky. Most of the Christians claim he mated with demons or animals, but even that flies in the face of genetics. Without divine help he couldn't have gotten anywhere. This is where I have to agree with Joseph Campbell when he asserts that Yahweh's behavior perfectly fits that of a Trickster god, far more than a Creator god. Genesis is a great example of Trickster messing with humanity to teach valuable lessons or to cause a change in consciousness. Then there are just the nasty tricks He pulls on people like Job and Lot. That's Trickster 100%.

In many religions Trickster is isolated and unmarried, but I don't recall any stories where he creates the Universe per se, rather he participates in the act of creating people and a dry place to put them. If he's a bachelor god then he doesn't need a wife to nag him, but if he's simply unwelcome at home there might still be a Creatrix, possibly She tossed him out because he's always messing with Her creations. Could be.

[metalman]

Will-i-am wrote:
I have been trying to get a decent translation of the Koran to read, bearing in mind, of course, that to truly study the book you should read it in the original language.


The Quran is ordered from longest surah to shortest, very hard to understand.

Better to read a rearranged, chronological version

Reverse Chronological Quran (http://www.challenging-islam.org/contributors/ethelred/rev-chron-koran.htm)

Reverse chronology is important because of the principle of abrogation, (http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive/article.php?lang=E&id=40248) whereby a later verse overrules an earlier verse on the same subject in the Quran.

The final Sura, "Surah 9 - The Immunity" (http://www.challenging-islam.org/contributors/ethelred/rev-chron-koran1.htm), declaring the antagonism of Islam to every other religion, as the final instruction of the Quran, is therfore the most important one to read.

[metalman]

Will-i-am wrote:
Looking at the Catholics from the outside it is obvious that they worship a huge number of gods. They get around the problem by calling some of them saints, but realistically if you build altars for them and pray to them and make offerings to them then they have become deified even if they were ever human. Some of them started out as pagan gods and just went through a wardrobe change and a name change, especially the females.

The POPE is the ANTICHRIST (http://www.remnantofgod.org/4fathers.htm)

See, Catholics ARE Christians!
They just don't believe you need to study the Bible, the Pope does it for you, since Catholics compiled the New Testament in 367 AD, they instead give you a Catechism (http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc.html) thats much easier reading, and doesn't let people get mislead like those Protestants do with that Revelation chapter.

Saint's are gods secretaries. Its better to pray to a Saint to ask for God's help, because God is VERY busy and might miss your message. Saint's take your message directly to God, so it doesn't get lost. :lol:

[metalman]

Will-i-am wrote:

One suggestion was Lilith, Adam's first 'wife'. Another article suggested that Eve was demoted from Goddess to mere consort of the first man. Has anybody else found information about the female counterpart to Yahweh?



the "first eve" story of lilith, first appeared in medieval times, in the alphabet of ben sirah. (http://www.lilitu.com/lilith/historical.html)

[nadoom]

The Quran is ordered from longest surah to shortest, very hard to understand.

Oh metalman this is what happens when you read something on a website without looking into the facts.

The quran is not ordered from longest to shortest, this can be easily seen by the fact that the final surah of the quran 'al-nas' is longer than the 3rd from last 'al-ikhlas'. It can also be seen by reading the first 2 surahs, 'al-fatiha' and 'al-bakarah', 'al fatiha' (the opening) is about 7 lines long whereas 'al-bakarah' is over 100 lines long.

hmm seems in an attempt to discredit islam your source are blatent liars feeding of people who are happy to beleive anything. Maybe "challenging islam dot com" needs to get their facts right eh?

The title of the 9th surah of the Quran is at-tawbah "the repentance"

Read the prophets last sermon to the people of mecca before he died, IF you really want to read something that encapsulates Islam:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/muhm-sermon.html

[metalman]

nadoom wrote:
Metalman wrote:
The Quran is ordered from longest surah to shortest, very hard to understand.

Oh metalman this is what happens when you read something on a website without looking into the facts.

The quran is not ordered from longest to shortest, this can be easily seen by the fact that the final surah of the quran 'al-nas' is longer than the 3rd from last 'al-ikhlas'. It can also be seen by reading the first 2 surahs, 'al-fatiha' and 'al-bakarah', 'al fatiha' (the opening) is about 7 lines long whereas 'al-bakarah' is over 100 lines long.

So much for the theory that their is "some" logical arrangemet to the verses. I guess the arrangement is just random.

Still 114 Suras?


nadoom wrote:
The title of the 9th surah of the Quran is at-tawbah "the repentance"

The title varies by translator, At-Tawba refered to as: "Repentance", "Repentance, Immunity", "Repentance, Dispensation"

here is a link with 3 translations side by side:
AL-TAWBA (REPENTANCE, DISPENSATION) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html)

Translations by :
Muhammad Marmaduke William Pickthall, (London, 1930) an Englishman who embraced Islam

Abdullah Yusuf Ali (Lahore, 1934 37) the most popular English translation, the translation is more of a paraphrase than a literal translation

M.H. Shakir, Shia muslim (New York, 1982)

The first link translation was by J.M. Rodwell, Rector of St. Ethelberga, (London, 1861) with later corrections

[nadoom]

duplicate post

[nadoom]

So much for the theory that their is "some" logical arrangemet to the verses. I guess the arrangement is just random.

I believe that the prophet mohammed pbuh did order them before he died.

i have a copy of the ali transilation but prefer the version by Muhammad Muhsin Khan and Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali. As the language is modern english and less ambigous transilation, ( which is probably why you wont like it)

Metalman, what religion if any are you?

[metalman]

nadoom wrote:
metalman wrote:
So much for the theory that their is "some" logical arrangemet to the verses. I guess the arrangement is just random.

I believe that the prophet mohammed pbuh did order them before he died.
He recited them by "almost" longest to shortest sura, a.k.a. randomly, two years before his death.

nadoom wrote:
i have a copy of the ali transilation but prefer the version by Muhammad Muhsin Khan and Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali. As the language is modern english and less ambigous transilation, ( which is probably why you wont like it)

I prefer literal translations
I didn't link to it (or read it) because its not online.

nadoom wrote:
Metalman, what religion if any are you?
Pastafarian, THE fastest growing religion on the planet!

http://www.venganza.org/images/spreadword/th_jollyfish.jpg

[Wilse]

Pastafarian, THE fastest growing religion on the planet!

I ate in a Pastafarian restaurant once. The garlic dredd was delicious.

He recited them by "almost" longest to shortest sura, a.k.a. randomly, two years before his death.

The angel Gabriel instructed Muhammad(saw) in which order the Surah's of the Qur'an should be laid out.

cecilia wrote:

Vincent wrote:

cecilia wrote:
men make god in their own image
So, how do women make god? ;-)there is no god

Produce your proof if ye are truthful.

;-)

Will-i-am wrote:

nicholas wrote:
I can assure you smithy that sufis *do not* have a female god, nor a male one either for that matter! LA ILAHA IL'ALLAH.

Seriously, Nicholas, and with all respect, that is interesting. I have a few Muslim friends but we haven't had much opportunity to talk about religion. In fact, I have been trying to get a decent translation of the Koran to read, bearing in mind, of course, that to truly study the book you should read it in the original language. I am unable to learn other languages anymore to a great extent, thanks in large part to the effect of the pain medications I am on. Very little short term memory.

So, then, in your faith the Diety is neither male, nor female. I know that most scholars of the Big Three religions assert that at some level it is understood that the Diety is neither male nor female, but perhaps both in one. That is how the Tree of Life is portrayed. The concept was explained to me that we cannot understand the One and so we deal with the aspects of the One that we can understand. In the Pagan faith to which I am involved we understand that the Creator of the universe must be neither male nor female in order to incorporate all the aspects of creation. Only biological beings need sex.

PM me, and I'll send you some links to various translations, and also a link to get a free hardcopy of the Qur'an in the post. You just pay for postage costs.

[Karlos]

metalman wrote:

Will-i-am wrote:
I have been trying to get a decent translation of the Koran to read, bearing in mind, of course, that to truly study the book you should read it in the original language.


The Quran is ordered from longest surah to shortest, very hard to understand.

Better to read a rearranged, chronological version

Reverse Chronological Quran (http://www.challenging-islam.org/contributors/ethelred/rev-chron-koran.htm)

Reverse chronology is important because of the principle of abrogation, (http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive/article.php?lang=E&id=40248) whereby a later verse overrules an earlier verse on the same subject in the Quran.

The final Sura, "Surah 9 - The Immunity" (http://www.challenging-islam.org/contributors/ethelred/rev-chron-koran1.htm), declaring the antagonism of Islam to every other religion, as the final instruction of the Quran, is therfore the most important one to read.


The order of the Quran is not descending length order. If you were to actually look at one, you'd find the first Surah is 7 verses. It seems the author of this site has a profound problem with counting, or perhaps just the number 7.

Continuing in that vein, it appears that his "Chronological Quran" seems to have 42 surahs less than any of mine. No doubt it would be that counting blind spot again, after all 6x7=42.

It's also interesting that such a thorough and rigorous treatment of the chronological ording of quranical chapters would actually miss out the very first Surah ever revealed, "Al Alaq" (The Clot) amongst those 42. Or how about "Al Fatiha" (The Opening), which is probably one of the most frequently repeated texts on the planet and is only, let me see... right at the beginning of the 'normal' Quran. Oh wait, from the above we can see it has 7 verses. He probably missed it, then...

Really, as far as sources go, this is about the weakest I have ever seen. Perhaps you should check if the person responsible had any good reason for missing out such a large portion before proffering this as any kind of reference.

[cecilia]

nicholas wrote:

cecilia wrote:

Vincent wrote:

cecilia wrote:
men make god in their own image
So, how do women make god? ;-)there is no god

Produce your proof if ye are truthful.

;-)

I don't have to prove a negative. (as you well know).
it's the people who believe in a god and who want to shove it down everyone's throat that have to prove a god exists.

and they will never be able to do that. :-D

[metalman]

Wilse wrote:
Pastafarian, THE fastest growing religion on the planet!

I ate in a Pastafarian restaurant once. The garlic dredd was delicious.

"Then you have tasted the gloriousness of the pasta which has been presented unto you.”
The Gospel of John the Pastafarian 20:21

And let us pray:

Our monster, thou art the pasta
Hallowed be thy sauce
Thy cheese has come
Meatballs are done
On plate as they are in saucepan
Give us this day our garlic bread
And forgive us our gasses
As we forgive those who spew gas among us
And lead us not into excessive indulgence
But deliver us from anti-pasta
For thy art the carbohydrates
And the protein and the dairy
Forever and ever.

Ramen

[metalman]

Karlos wrote:
The order of the Quran is not descending length order. If you were to actually look at one, you'd find the first Surah is 7 verses. It seems the author of this site has a profound problem with counting, or perhaps just the number 7.

Surah Number -- Surah Name -- Surah Verses (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/transliteration/)

The closest regression fit to any logical type of arrangement is "descending length order", Muslims call the order "As The Angel Gabriel dictated it", most logical people would call the arrangement "random arrangement".

Karlos wrote:
Continuing in that vein, it appears that his "Chronological Quran" seems to have 42 surahs less than any of mine. No doubt it would be that counting blind spot again, after all 6x7=42.

It's also interesting that such a thorough and rigorous treatment of the chronological ording of quranical chapters would actually miss out the very first Surah ever revealed, "Al Alaq" (The Clot) amongst those 42. Or how about "Al Fatiha" (The Opening), which is probably one of the most frequently repeated texts on the planet and is only, let me see... right at the beginning of the 'normal' Quran. Oh wait, from the above we can see it has 7 verses. He probably missed it, then...

principle of abrogation, the replacement of one verse by another, thus reversing or repealing the ruling that was revealed in it.

The Mecca surah are the least important, the later Medina surah the most important.

Karlos wrote:
Really, as far as sources go, this is about the weakest I have ever seen. Perhaps you should check if the person responsible had any good reason for missing out such a large portion before proffering this as any kind of reference.

Why waste time reading surah that have been over ruled in a newer revision?

Save even more time, just read the last surah,
Surah 9 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html) AT-TAUBAH and AL-BARA'AT (REPENTANCE, DISPENSATION, IMMUNITY, RELEASE)

[Karlos]

@Metalman

No, it is not descending length order. It might be 'partial descending length order' if you want to be accurate, but stating that it is 'in descdending length order' is a logical fallacy.

As for the rest of your comment, well, for a start, the missing 42 surahs are not all abbrogated. Secondly, abbrogation works at a specific commandment level, which usually ends up being verse level or narrower. Entire Surahs are not abbrogated.

Of course, if you weren't so pathetically eager to side with the extremist nutjobs when it comes to interpreting it, you'd know that.

Produce your proof if ye are truthful.

;-)

I don't have to prove a negative. (as you well know).
it's the people who believe in a god and who want to shove it down everyone's throat that have to prove a god exists.

and they will never be able to do that. :-D [/quote]

Sorry, I couldn't resist. That statement is a quote from the Qur'an. Sort of a Muslim in-joke if you will.

Here's another quote:

"There is no compulsion in religion."

No one can be forced to believe anything, anyone that trys to force is a fool, and according to the Qur'an they won't go to heaven as it is against God's will to force anyone to do anything.

[cecilia]

nicholas wrote:


Produce your proof if ye are truthful.

;-)

I don't have to prove a negative. (as you well know).
it's the people who believe in a god and who want to shove it down everyone's throat that have to prove a god exists.

and they will never be able to do that. :-D

Sorry, I couldn't resist. That statement is a quote from the Qur'an. Sort of a Muslim in-joke if you will.[/quote]
I understood you were making a joke. i just took the opportunity to state the obvious
Here's another quote:

"There is no compulsion in religion."

No one can be forced to believe anything, anyone that trys to force is a fool, and according to the Qur'an they won't go to heaven as it is against God's will to force anyone to do anything.sure, reasonable people know that.
but tell that jerry falwell and pat robertson - and all the other kooks that think ideas and behavior need to be enforced at the end of a gun. :roll:

[recidivist]

"sure, reasonable people know that.
but tell that jerry falwell and pat robertson - and all the other kooks that think ideas and behavior need to be enforced at the end of a gun."

I would define socialism and its many variants,i.e. nazism,communism, as having the aspects and form of religion. They have their prphets Marx and other German philosophers,their revered "saints" who bodies are preserved for public adoration,and they have killed tens of millions ,perhaps a hundred million all told, because those people had the audacity to believe that which they worked for should be theirs,as well as they should be free to direct their own lives.

Mao was one who believed all political power grows out of the barrell of a gun;before that it was the arrow,the sword,the club,or just whoever was bigger and meaner.

There is something fundamentally wrong with any group that allows leaving only through death.

[Wilse]

Ramen

Jah Pastafarii! :afro: :hat: :laugh: :bow: :pancake:

[Wilse]

I would define socialism and its many variants,i.e. nazism,communism, as having the aspects and form of religion.

You could argue the same for any "ism".

FWIW, I disagree. ;-)

Wilse wrote:
I would define socialism and its many variants,i.e. nazism,communism, as having the aspects and form of religion.

You could argue the same for any "ism".

FWIW, I disagree. ;-)

I agree.

For example: Materialism, Capitalism, Veganism, Hedonism, Athieism, Secularism, Liberalism etc.....

I would have added Agnosticism, but agnostic's are just Athiests without bollocks. ;-)

[Wilse]

agnostic's are just Athiests without bollocks.

</quick fumble in the undercarriage>

What are these things inside this hairy-brain-like container then?

:-P

On a more serious note, I'd argue that agnostics are the only ones with a healthy sense of reason and logic, when it comes to considering the possible existence of deities. I can't rule the existence of a god or gods in or out so I can't be sure. Both atheists and theists believe firmly in something that can never be proven.
Owners of Bollox? Maybe.
Reason and logic? 'fraid not.

That said, although I describe myself as agnostic, I'm only a baw-her from atheism; I don't think there is any god but I just can't prove it. :-D

Or to paraphrase your good self, I'm just a potential atheist who wants some proof.

[aardvark]

That's why I don't consider many Roman Catholics to be Christian at all.

This reminds me of a joke by Emo Phillips
"I was walking across a bridge one day, and i saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. so i ran over and said "stop! don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?" He said, "Baptist!" I said, "Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?" He said, "Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off."

That's why I don't consider many Roman Catholics to be Christian at all.

No "Christian" is actually a Christian. If these people really did follow the teachings of Christ that they profess to follow, then they would be Jewish.

[SamuraiCrow]

nicholas wrote:

No "Christian" is actually a Christian. If these people really did follow the teachings of Christ that they profess to follow, then they would be Jewish.

Not quite. In the ancient temple there were the outer courts which anyone could go into and then there was the "holy place" where only Jews could go into. Gentiles were second-class when it came to belief in God but Jews were supposed to be a royal priesthood to the rest of the world. When they kept God to themselves and didn't spread the faith, God punished them. That punishment may soon come to an end since Jews have been returning to the holy land and prospering there.

http://www.mjaa.org/

[SamuraiCrow]

nicholas wrote:
http://www.mjaa.org/

I really admire them... although I heard they had a lot of difficulty becuase of uncircumcised gentile Christians worshipping at their synagogues. Fundamentalism is so tempting. :-D

[PMC]

Going back a few paragraphs, don't pagans believe in male and female Gods being equal?

Personally, I don't really give a {bleep} about which God belongs to which faith, I've got to the point where teachings from many faith strike a chord.

Messages from many different faiths make sense to me, which is the way I wish it to continue for me personally as I am heartily sick of religious dogma splitting society over what seem to be trivial matters. I've renounced eating meat because of my own beliefs, but do I preach to everyone else? Nope. It's a personal journey and I believe matters of faith to be the same thing. Sorry but if an Imam has a problem with me drinking beer then personally he can go get {bleep}ed. If a catholic has the same issue with me using a condom he can go do exactly the same thing.

PMC wrote:
Going back a few paragraphs, don't pagans believe in male and female Gods being equal?

Personally, I don't really give a {bleep} about which God belongs to which faith, I've got to the point where teachings from many faith strike a chord.

Messages from many different faiths make sense to me, which is the way I wish it to continue for me personally as I am heartily sick of religious dogma splitting society over what seem to be trivial matters. I've renounced eating meat because of my own beliefs, but do I preach to everyone else? Nope. It's a personal journey and I believe matters of faith to be the same thing. Sorry but if an Imam has a problem with me drinking beer then personally he can go get {bleep}ed. If a catholic has the same issue with me using a condom he can go do exactly the same thing.


I believe the wiccans have a saying something similar to "If it harms none, do as ye will". :-)

[blobrana]

Hum,
i came across this interesting site.

The misogynic moslem religion has its origins in goddess worship. Allah is a revamped version of the ancient goddess Al'Lat, and it was her shrine which has continued - little changed - as the Ka'bah.
The known history of Mohammed reveals that he was born around 570 CE into a tribe of the Quraysh, who not only worshipped the goddess Q're but were the sworn guardians of her shrine. By 622 Mohammed was preaching the ways of his god, Allah, and was driven out by his own tribe as a result.
Pre-islamic worship of the goddess seems to be primarily associated with Al'Lat, which simply means 'goddess'. She is a triple goddess, similar to the Greek lunar deity Kore/Demeter/Hecate. Each aspect of this trinity corresponds to a phase of the moon. In the same way Al'Lat has three names known to the initiate: Q're, the crescent moon or the maiden; Al'Uzza, literally 'the strong one' who is the full moon and the mother aspect; then Al'Menat, the waning but wise goddess of fate, prophecy and divination. Islamic tradition continue to recognise these three but labels them 'daughters of Allah'.
According to Edward Rice Al'Uzza was especially worshipped at the Ka'bah where she was served by seven priestesses. Her worshippers circled the holy stone seven times - once for each of the ancient seven planets - and did so in total nudity. Near the Ka'bah is the ever-flowing well, Zamzam, which cools the throats of the countless millions of pilgrims.

Read more (http://www.indigogroup.co.uk/edge/blstone.htm)

[Hyperspeed]

by blobrana:
Her worshippers circled the holy stone seven times - once for each of the ancient seven planets - and did so in total nudity.


Total nudity... no wonder the seventh planet was called Uranus!

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39609000/jpg/_39609789_basilbrush203.jpg

BOOM! BOOM!

[nadoom]

Islamic tradition continue to recognise these three but labels them 'daughters of Allah'.

Islamic tradion does nothing of the sort!

Islam is strictly monotheist, that means that you are not a muslim if you ajoin partner to Allah or claim he is begotten or begets children. that is the basis of islam, i read part of that article and i must say its hilarious i love the way the guy states things and doesnt provided consistent references. where on earth did he pluck some of that stuff from?

@Blobrana

:roflmao:

That is quite possibly the most ridiculous article based on made up facts i have ever read.

Put's me in mind of "The Day Today", or "KYTV", or Richard Madeley even!

[Hyperspeed]

by nadoom:
...you are not a muslim if you ajoin partner to Allah or claim he is begotten or begets children


I see from your new avatar that you have been 'begetting' lately...

:-D

[blobrana]

>>That is quite possibly the most ridiculous article based on made up facts i have ever read.

Hum,
perhaps,
but i would be surprised if there was not a basis of truth about pre-Islamic goddess worship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzza

blobrana wrote:
>>That is quite possibly the most ridiculous article based on made up facts i have ever read.

Hum,
perhaps,
but i would be surprised if there was not a basis of truth about pre-Islamic goddess worship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzza

Before prophet Muhammad(saws) the Arabs of Makkah were mostly pagan idol worshippers. This is common knowledge, it it the sole reason the Qur'an was revealed in the first place. "La ilaha illallah" - There is no God but God.

There isn't much difference between the idol worshipping pracices of then, and the idol worshipping that the Hindu's practice today.

[Karlos]

@Blobrana,

IIRC, a major part of the plot in Salman Rushdie's "Satanic Verses" was that Ayats (verses) relating to the importance of pre-existing pagan arab Godesses were revealed to Muhammad (SAW) as part of the Qur'an and were later retracted after the realisation that they had come from Shaitan (satan) - hence the title.

It's well known that gods and goddesses were worshipped by pagan arabs prior to the arrival of Islam and in particular the Quayrish were in charge of Mecca as a religious site at the time, so, yes pre-Islamic goddess worship is not without foundation. However, it's equally well known that Muhammad (SAW) would have nothing whatsoever to do with it and rejected any association with the existing religion, much to the displeasure of those in charge at the time.

It is from this that the systematic persecution of Muhammad (SAW) and any of his followers began, leading to their eventual relocation to Medina.

[Hyperspeed]

So what was The Satan (http://www.flyingdogshow.com/satan.inside.jpg)ic Verses all about and why did Iran put a Fatwah on Salmon Rushdie?

[nadoom]

a fatawa is a islamic religous ruling it can be anything from dont eat pigs to whatever

Since salman rushdie was apparently a muslim, and the satanic verses was an attack on the authenticity of the quran and the character of the prophet mohammed, this therefore made him an apostate therefore the ayatollah of iran issued a death sentence on him for what he had written leading to him selling millions of books and making loads of money while the british tax payer pays for his protection.

In the context of an islamic state, to reject islam is an act of treason and thus the sentence is death. In this case it appears to have been mis-applied in my opinion, and since there seems to be alot of differences between shia and sunni islamic jurisprudence it is clear that the ayatollah does not speak for all muslims, shia being <20% of muslims

[Hyperspeed]

I suppose The Satanic Verses was the 'Da Vinci Code' of it's day. No doubt if the Ayatollah had kept quiet nobody would have noticed Salmon Rushdie.

nadoom: Since it is Ramadan, and you have to fast, can you describe to me how hungry you feel looking at the picture below...

http://www.niagara.co.uk/niagara/niagaraImages/fish-ch.jpg

:lol:

[GadgetMaster]

@ Hyperspeed

Why you little {bleep} ................!!!!


:roflmao: :roflmao:

[GadgetMaster]

Btw, I don't think of it as a burden.

I want to fast, I don't feel like I have to fast.

There are many that don't fast. They obviously don't want to observe it or have a condition that does not allow them to.

And anyway most people fasting hardly feel hungry by the time the month is ending. The body becomes accustomed to the new routine by then. Post pictures of all the food you want. It's thirst that normally is more of an issue usually, but in the recent weather even that has not been a problem

You should try it some day ;-)

[nadoom]

me being hungry makes me happy, because i feel i am making a sacrifice and benefiting myself in many ways.

On seeing the fish and chips, i wouldnt mind eating that right now! fish and chips in twickenham leaves something to be desired, if you want really nice fish and chips go to Albany Fish Bar on Albany road in cardiff, laarvly stuff.

So let me summarise my feelings on fasting:

I appriecate the fact that am no longer in control of when i can eat, this gives me a (small) sense of understanding of how it must feel to be in famin conditions, it is tempered by the fact i know i will eat, how must it feel to literally starve to death?

When the sun goes down i can eat, starting with some milk or orange juice and a stack load of iranian dates - i feel a fair sense of relief and achievement.

Not eating is much more bearable when you are not reminded of food, when your stomach starts to ache it can be hard, no liquid is the hardest, but if you are careful not to over exert yourself and drink plenty before and after the fast its usually fine.

Having said that Ramadan isnt just about fasting, it is also a time when muslims should try to become better people, behave in a more pious way etc.

As for Ramadan it ends at sunset today in the uk, so that means its Eid tomorrow! So happy Eid everyone, and lets welcome the ensuing discussion of Eid! jk

[Hyperspeed]

Does fasting exempt vitamin supplements... I couldn't be going without my daily dose of Zinc!

Mmmm... Zinc!

[Karlos]

Careful - too much of any mineral suppliment can do you harm.

[Hyperspeed]

Click here (http://www.thegreenhead.com/watercooler/images/scary_pic_giant_boulder.jpg) to see one unlucky person's mineral overdose.

:-D

[odin]

:lol:
Very.....Wile E. Coyote ;-).

[Hyperspeed]

http://tn3-2.deviantart.com/fs9/300W/i/2006/047/f/4/Wile_E__Coyote_by_WileE2005.jpg

Wile.E.Coyote ponders whether this whole 'Allah is a woman' thread is a feminist ploy...

[Dandy]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:

It then went on to show that the male-dominated establishment of each of the religions suppressed the female element.

Well, Maria is a christian adaptation of a pagan godess.

Hmmm - but she only plays a major role in catholic church - for the others she's just the mom of Jesus and not worshipped or prayed to in any way.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

Dandy wrote:
Hmmm - but she only plays a major role in catholic church - for the others she's just the mom of Jesus and not worshipped or prayed to in any way.After Luther that is...

[SamuraiCrow]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:

Dandy wrote:
Hmmm - but she only plays a major role in catholic church - for the others she's just the mom of Jesus and not worshipped or prayed to in any way.After Luther that is...

I don't think the Orthodox church worships Mary either. They've been around as long as the Catholic church has been.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

SamuraiCrow wrote:

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:

Dandy wrote:
Hmmm - but she only plays a major role in catholic church - for the others she's just the mom of Jesus and not worshipped or prayed to in any way.After Luther that is...

I don't think the Orthodox church worships Mary either. They've been around as long as the Catholic church has been.But eastern christianity has different roots.

[metalman]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:

SamuraiCrow wrote:

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:

Dandy wrote:
Hmmm - but she only plays a major role in catholic church - for the others she's just the mom of Jesus and not worshipped or prayed to in any way.After Luther that is...

I don't think the Orthodox church worships Mary either. They've been around as long as the Catholic church has been.But eastern christianity has different roots.

Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism split during the Great Schism, dated to 1054. The Eastern Orthodox rejects the authority of the Bishop of Rome (the Pope), and links itself to the Apostles through unbroken Apostolic Succession.

Eastern Orthodox honors (venerates) Mary as the Mother of God

[Hyperspeed]

Mother of God, Holy Father, Our Father who are't in heaven, Son of Man, Son of God, Son of a {bleep}.

Amen!

[blobrana]

Hum,
It seems that ancient Hebrew inscriptions have been found that mention "Jehovah and his Asherah," "Jehovah Shomron and his Asherah, "Jehovah Teman and his Asherah."

The editing out of the female deity probably happened fairly early on, say, 500BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah

[nadoom]

If we consider that Islam and Judaism are descended from the religion of abraham which basically means belief in one god, I fail to see how one could link judaism or islam as being polytheist religions. It is blatently obvious that the messengers sent by God were so clear in their statements that there is only one God.

There is no secret that the some Israelites and pre-islamic arabs worshipped god along side other gods, such as the golden calf or al-uzza and co., Moses put a stop to that as did Mohammed.

[blobrana]

Hum,
it is blatantly obvious from archaeological evidence that modern-day Judaic monotheism had it roots in a Hebrew multi female/male deity.
The people who worshiped the golden calf (Aries) and other gods were still Hebrews.
The religion of Abraham (about 2000 BC) worshiped a Hebrew multi female/male deity.
The old testament bible has just been altered to comply with a one god belief.

[nadoom]

All the prophets brought the same message:
"there is only one god"

and since judaism and islam are based on that message, how can you say that it has been altered to comply with a one god belief when in fact it is rooted in the beliefs set down by the prophets?

I cant speak for the judaism, but if there is only one deity and it is not an idol ill bet that its probably "the one god" they are talking about..

[Hyperspeed]

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/8010/fortuneimg3oo.jpg

Anyone remember Gozer from Ghostbusters, the evil Goddess from the spirit world?

Well, Gozer sent demon dogs out to possess two humans... the one played by Sigourney Weaver was called Zool... pfff...

:lol: