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broken
02-10-2006, 10:34 AM
I have had several NTSC Amiga's over the years and I would like to get another A1200. Is it worth my while to spend the extra money for an NTSC machine, or should I just import a PAL version from somewhere?


Also, what about the monitor? Can I use a NTSC 1084 with the machine or would I also need a PAL version of it as well?


I just know all the problems I have had with trying to get euro games and demos working on my Amigas that I figure since most of the software is PAL based, I might as well just get a PAL machine to begin with.


Thoughts?

tonyvdb
02-10-2006, 10:46 AM
Ok its been awhile since I have thought about this.

Pal Amigas will work in the US as long as they have the duel voltage power supply. Amigas were designed to work with Pal and NTSC out of the box. all you need to do is make sure that you have the NTSC monitors placed in the "Monitor" drawer on your sys drive.
As far as a monitor, a standard 1084 will work or even better a 1960 multisync.

mr_a500
02-10-2006, 10:51 AM
Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you'll also need to worry about a power converter (220V to 110V). EDIT: you beat me to it, tonyvdb ;-)

I was also wondering about this because NTSC A1200s are damn hard to find. You should check out www.amigakit.com. Check out the A1200 "build-to-order" option - there's an option for NTSC. Maybe it's just wishful thinking - you select that option and it says "sorry out of stock" or something. Maybe I'll try to order one.

You shouldn't have a problem running PAL stuff on an NTSC A1200. I run PAL demos and games all the time on my NTSC A500.

amigakit
02-10-2006, 10:55 AM
The website shouldnt say out of stock as we have NTSC Amiga 1200's currently in stock at the moment.

No 110v PSUs though - but I have enquired regarding a production run of 110v PSUs so I will report more information as I get it.

mr_a500
02-10-2006, 10:59 AM
The website shouldnt say out of stock as we have NTSC Amiga 1200's currently in stock at the moment.

That is shocking and amazing. And they are new? How is that possible? I think I'll order one right away and change my name to mr_a1200. ;-)

broken
02-10-2006, 11:05 AM
So, would the monitor be more of a concern with running PAL software on the NTSC A1200 than the actual Amiga itself?

Basically all the monitors I have ever used were 1084s, 1080 and 2002s.

I haven't tried any of the Multisync models.


edit: I see a 1960 on eBay, but at $300 that seems rather steep.

What about the NEC 3D Multisync? Good alternative for ntsc and pal usage?

drewz21
02-10-2006, 11:07 AM
AmigaKit.com is fast becoming my favorite Amiga store...period!

The last order I placed with them, yesterday, I made sure they knew I ordered from them because of their presence on this board.

Thanks for the support of the Amiga, AmigaKit!

K7HTH
02-10-2006, 11:15 AM
drewz21 wrote:
AmigaKit.com is fast becoming my favorite Amiga store...period!

The last order I placed with them, yesterday, I made sure they knew I ordered from them because of their presence on this board.

Thanks for the support of the Amiga, AmigaKit!

Oh, yeah! AmigaKit watches this board like a Hawk! Even moreso than the Mods. :-D

mr_a500
02-10-2006, 11:20 AM
Running PAL software on an NTSC Amiga with an NTSC 1084, the extreme top and bottom of the screen will be cut off. So for example, in Fire&Ice the score at the top can barely be seen and in Babeanoid the "bat" at the bottom of the screen can't be seen. This is only a problem in the few games and demos that put things on the extreme edges.

On some 1084 monitors, you can adjust the V-height and "squash" the screen so everything is seen.

This makes me wonder - is the PAL 1084 physically taller or is the screen just "squashed" to fit?

tonyvdb
02-10-2006, 11:38 AM
NTSC has a total of 525 horizontal lines per frame, with two fields per frame of 262.5 lines each. Each field refreshes at 60Hz.

PAL has a total of 625 horizontal lines per frame, with two fields per frame of 312.5 lines per frame. Each field refreshes at 50Hz.

The 1084 monitor is NTSC here in North america it wont display the top and bottum of a pal screen because NTSC monitors only display 525 lines. The screen size is the same but on Pal monitors the lines are closer together.

I will be silling my 1960 next week on ebay unless you offer me something resonable. I am up in Canada so shipping may be around $60

NOTE: Just for your info some US communities up until recently were still using a 50hz signwave on the electrical grid and as time has gone on have converted to 60hz as this messed around with the internal clock running slow in computers due to the fact that they use the frequency of the power to keep time. Thats why you still see some companies lable the power supplies with the 50/60hz lable unlike in Canada where it has always been 60hz.

leirbag28
02-10-2006, 12:40 PM
@mr_a500


Get NTSC4NTSC for Aminet and alot of Your PAL problems will be solved!

I can play Klondike on my Amiga in NTSC mode yupee!

If youhave a AGA machine just type: NTSC4NTSC FORCENTSC

and that will force all PAL programs into NTSC Atoscroll screens so that you can see all the lines.

if you have an ECS machine, type: NTSC4NTSC USEAUTO
and i will do he same as I dont think the FORCENTSC part works on ECS.


Also you can ge a Philips or Magnavox TV. When in PAL mode they shrink the Image to fit NTSC screens!
no all of them do it, so test i first with an A600 in hand like I do :-) I just hold both mouse buttons and the boot menu comes up..then just tap a key for PAL and again for NTSC

I also have a Magnovox RGB monitor that was made for Amiga..it shrinks the image also automatically!



Haha.........I just sold my Commodore 64 DTV to someone local who just rang my bell as I was typing this................Gave it away for $7

I know where to get NTSC units!


here is a link of the item I just sold: (off topic, I know :-)

http://newyork.craigslist.org/que/sys/132577986.html

mr_a500
02-10-2006, 05:15 PM
NTSC4NTSC won't help with WHDload installed games. And I just tried it with BabeAnoid and it doesn't open an autoscroll screen. (tried USEAUTO and FORCENTSC)

So that makes NTSC4NTSC useless for me. I use Degrader to open PAL screens for non-WHDload games and demos - and ModePro to promote or change screenmode of others.

adolescent
02-10-2006, 05:16 PM
Keep in mind the PAL A1200 doesn't output a true NTSC signal.
Changing to NTSC requires changing some components on the board to different frequency parts. (I think Catherder mentioned having these in stock recently)

adolescent
02-10-2006, 05:30 PM
@mr_a500

Why not put in a hardware PAL/NTSC switch and forget the software. It's just a matter of wiring a SPDT switch to a pin of Agnus.

mr_a500
02-10-2006, 05:50 PM
Why not put in a hardware PAL/NTSC switch and forget the software. It's just a matter of wiring a SPDT switch to a pin of Agnus.

Using software to switch to PAL mode is not a problem. It works fine. The problem we were discussing was PAL screens being "cut off" at the top and bottom when viewed on an NTSC 1084. A hardware switch on Agnus would not help this.

adolescent
02-10-2006, 06:02 PM
Doesn't your 1084 have enough adjustability to show the complete screen? I never had a problem on my A500 + 1084S.

beller
02-10-2006, 06:10 PM
drewz21 wrote:
AmigaKit.com is fast becoming my favorite Amiga store...period!

The last order I placed with them, yesterday, I made sure they knew I ordered from them because of their presence on this board.

Thanks for the support of the Amiga, AmigaKit!

I agree! I was also "shocked and amazed" to find NOS A1200s on a build-to-order. Given all the interest I'm glad I ordered my NTSC yesterday!! There can't be that many NOS out there, can there?

Looking forward to my new A1200!! I can now say I've owned every classic Amiga! (heck, if I get a 1000, 2000, and 500 I think I'm covered now!)

Bob :-D

mr_a500
02-10-2006, 06:36 PM
Doesn't your 1084 have enough adjustability to show the complete screen? I never had a problem on my A500 + 1084S.

That's a 1084S and I think those (and later 1084) have a V-Height knob on the front. Both of my 1084 monitors just have a screwdriver hole on the back and a very delicate knob deep inside for V-Height and they don't adjust very far. Even turned all the way, it wasn't enough - and I carefully tried turning a bit farther and the damn cheapo thing bent (and possibly screwed the monitor).

I wouldn't want to have to turn my monitor around, get the screwdriver and flashlight and carefully adjust it for a PAL game, then when finished, do the whole thing again to fix the aspect ratio for NTSC (otherwise screen looks squashed) every single time.

So I guess the moral of the story is: get a 1084S and make sure the V-Height knob is on the front!

alenppc
02-10-2006, 08:01 PM
mr_a500 wrote:
Running PAL software on an NTSC Amiga with an NTSC 1084, the extreme top and bottom of the screen will be cut off. So for example, in Fire&Ice the score at the top can barely be seen and in Babeanoid the "bat" at the bottom of the screen can't be seen. This is only a problem in the few games and demos that put things on the extreme edges.

On some 1084 monitors, you can adjust the V-height and "squash" the screen so everything is seen.

This makes me wonder - is the PAL 1084 physically taller or is the screen just "squashed" to fit?

There is no problem using a PAL Amiga with an NTSC 1084-style monitor. The input is RGB so the picture will be fine you would just have to adjust the V-size controls and eventually V-sync which will make it look exactly like it would appear on a PAL 1084. The opposite is also true - if you have a PAL 1084 which you want to use with an NTSC amiga, you have to do the same but in reverse because by default a PAL 1084 monitor will centre the NTSC resolution picture leaving top and bottom black borders (like if for example you were watching a widescreen movie).

Even my old 1080 monitor (Jan 1986!) can be adjusted to view the full 625-line resolution.

As far as the PSU is concerned - there is no need to get a power converter. You can use any 110V PSU intended for use with an A500 or simply rewire any cheap PC/AT PSU, even a 100W would do perfectly fine... The only problem might be finding the square power connector.

leirbag28
02-10-2006, 08:11 PM
@alenppc


No matter what you do to an NTSC 1084s, You will never see the whole PAL picture......specifically the extreme ones.


@mr_a500

WHDload is a whole different story as well as Babenoid.
But what About Techno SOund Turbo? Protracker? Klondike? Fantastic Dreams/Elastic Dreams? MASPlayer software and hundreds of other Apps hat only com in PAL?

Trust m NTSC4NTSC is the best I have seen so far. it is instant unlike the hassle of Degrader in which you have to reboot.

it becoms even more usefull when using a TV with you Amiga. and doing presentations as I do.

By the way I hav been usin ABCdir more and more.its becoming more usefull...........specifically when copying CD's on my CD32.......DMS2 causes my CD32 o crash every time! and now finally I hae somethin that wont crash it!

I think it has to do with th fact that DMS2 seems to be doin something to th CPU even when you are not using it...........Use SnoopDOS while DMS2 is open to see what I mean. ABCDIR doesnt do that.

mr_a500
02-10-2006, 09:42 PM
But what About Techno SOund Turbo? Protracker? Klondike? Fantastic Dreams/Elastic Dreams? MASPlayer software and hundreds of other Apps hat only com in PAL?

Trust m NTSC4NTSC is the best I have seen so far. it is instant unlike the hassle of Degrader in which you have to reboot.

Of those, I only use Protracker and there is an NTSC mode for that.

You don't have to reboot with Degrader. Typing "degrader 50hz 50hzsystem noeditop" will switch to PAL mode. With PAL programs, if ModePro can't change modes for me, I make a script file (run with iconx) where I switch to PAL and when the program is finished, switch back to NTSC.

So my script file for BabeAnoid is like this:

c:degrader 50hz 50hzsystem noeditop
BabeAnoid.exe
c:degrader 60hz 60hzsystem noeditop

I've also got two ABCdir buttons for running Degrader - one for PAL, one for NTSC so I can do fast switches.

adolescent
02-11-2006, 09:39 AM
leirbag28 wrote:
@alenppc

No matter what you do to an NTSC 1084s, You will never see the whole PAL picture......specifically the extreme ones.



Give me an example and I'll try it out. (I no longer have the A500 but can use my A600).

Zac67
02-11-2006, 10:18 AM
All in all this is very simple. NTSC AGA machines differ from PAL ones in these ways:
PSU: 110V vs 220V: easily exchanged/adapted
Alice: the very same, just the JUMPER/solder bridge for pin 41 (_NTSC/PAL) differs
modulator: different part, must be exchanged if composite is needed. RGB doesn't care.
oscillator: differs slightly, but doesn't really matter (if you're not genlocking or using an A2024)

All RGB monitors I've ever seen (1081, various 1084, Philips, Profex, ...) can be adjusted (vertical sync & height) to either PAL or NTSC.

PS: _NTSC comes out of the U12 encoder and runs through Q201 (all between IDE and PCMCIA). Probably that's a different part, too, but my schematics are too bad to read...

PPS: no I have it I think: the _NTSC doesn't come from the encoder - that one just needs the inverted signal. So R203 (0 Ohms) decides whether NTSC (present) or PAL (missing). Can anyone with a PAL 1200 confirm that it's missing?

TjLaZer
02-11-2006, 10:53 AM
If anyone can figure out a way to get Chaos Engine AGA to run in NTSC I will be stoked! The game uses a NTSC sized screen but insists it use a PAL to run! I don't get it. Tried everything. WHDLoad also does the same thing.

adolescent
02-11-2006, 01:56 PM
TjLaZer wrote:
If anyone can figure out a way to get Chaos Engine AGA to run in NTSC I will be stoked! The game uses a NTSC sized screen but insists it use a PAL to run! I don't get it. Tried everything. WHDLoad also does the same thing.

Try JST version!

Merc
02-11-2006, 02:48 PM
leirbag28 wrote:
No matter what you do to an NTSC 1084s, You will never see the whole PAL picture......specifically the extreme ones.


I had 3 different 1084S's as well as a 4th 1084S-P or whatever the "2nd generation" ones were, and all of them adapted to PAL mode by changing the refresh rate and I never had to adjust anything on the monitor to see the full screen.

This was with NTSC A500/A1200's, so maybe in the case of a PAL machine this may not be the case, but I don't see what the difference would be, the video signal remains the same AFAIK.

alenppc
02-11-2006, 03:47 PM
I had 3 different 1084S's as well as a 4th 1084S-P or whatever the "2nd generation" ones were, and all of them adapted to PAL mode by changing the refresh rate and I never had to adjust anything on the monitor to see the full screen.

This was with NTSC A500/A1200's, so maybe in the case of a PAL machine this may not be the case, but I don't see what the difference would be, the video signal remains the same AFAIK.

No, there is no difference when using the RGB connection. I had a PAL 1084S and an NTSC 1080, and they don't sync automatically to a different screenmode but you have to adjust them manually... not a big deal really...

The only thing is, as you are probably aware, Commodore sold lots of different models, that is to say, models that were significantly different hardware-wise and even had different connectors on the back under the same model number, which means that you can never know which behaviour to expect from one until you try it... Even two 1084s which look perfectly identical from the outside might have different specs.

leirbag28
02-12-2006, 05:50 PM
@dolescent

I will have to do some testing.


@Merc
I am not talking about just the refesh rate, I am talking about the screen size........the best way to understand what I mean is this:

Put your Amiga in NTSC 640 x 400 workbench........and adjust the screen so that you see a border about a centimeter around the 640 x 400 area.....now with some sort of erasable marker or pencil or whatever.......draw and trace the edges of the 640 x 400 area................now after doing that...........put your Workbench in PAL 640 x 512............notice the image is outside the Outline you just drew, though your monitor may be in 50Hz mode and you can probably adjust the sreen to see the Full PAL image............................................. ......................

But! on My Magnavox (and probabaly the PHILIPS CMK monitors).....when I put it in PAL mode........it resizes the 640x512 to fit the exact outline of the 640x400 area the NTSC occupied so that I dont have to adjust anything on my monitor! I never seen a 1084 that does this although TJLazer says the Boxy one with the Blue commodore words does this.

This is the only TRUE time that Pal is actually Higher resolution.....on other RGB's is just more lines but not higher resolution.Higher resolution is More dots or pixels per inch. But anyway this isnt a Higher res discussion.

in some cases some software has Overscan PAL or Extreme PAL that No NTSC Amiga Monitor can display.I will have to do research again to see which games or software they were.

I think Project X may be one......not sure

mr_a500
02-12-2006, 06:52 PM
I already mentioned two games as example of being off the screen (and I don't know why nobody saw it):

So for example, in Fire&Ice the score at the top can barely be seen and in Babeanoid the "bat" at the bottom of the screen can't be seen.

When I say Fire&Ice score, I mean the word "Score", the bottom of which can be seen if you look up and behind the monitor casing. The actual score can be seen. On the 1084 I'm using now, you can't see the Babeanoid bat at all. On my last 1084 (the one I adjusted the V-Height with screwdriver), you could see the top of the bat if you looked from above down the inside of the monitor case.

K7HTH
02-12-2006, 11:25 PM
Has anyone tried playing PAL games through an Eyetech external SD/FF on an NTSC monitor?

Zac67
02-13-2006, 12:26 AM
With a SD/FF you wouldn't use a video monitor, since it's 15kHz and the SD/FF outputs 31kHz...

leirbag28
02-13-2006, 09:40 AM
@mr_a500

Quote
Of those, I only use Protracker and there is an NTSC mode for that.

You don't have to reboot with Degrader. Typing "degrader 50hz 50hzsystem noeditop" will switch to PAL mode. With PAL programs, if ModePro can't change modes for me, I make a script file (run with iconx) where I switch to PAL and when the program is finished, switch back to NTSC.

So my script file for BabeAnoid is like this:

c:degrader 50hz 50hzsystem noeditop
BabeAnoid.exe
c:degrader 60hz 60hzsystem noeditop

I've also got two ABCdir buttons for running Degrader - one for PAL, one for NTSC so I can do fast switches.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


1. There is an NTSC mode in ProTracker????? where?

2. Although its a brilliant Idea and I thought of doing something Similar using ToolsDaemon (Amiga's REAL Start Menu) why not just use Nico Fracois's PAL and NTSC commands??? Ten Billion times easier. You just Type PAL.and whalla! or Type NTSC and Whalla! I have them both on my ToolsDaemon/Sytem/Commands menu.or you can write a script and replace the Word DEGRADER with PAL or NTSC accordingly


3. The reason Fire And ICE and Babenoid are not working for you is either because you Dont have the necessary AGNUS Chip that displays REAL PAL (You can load and view them with old AGNUS but in NTSC cut off screen mode) or Your Amiga is NOt being put into PAL mode At all though you tell it to.

I can see Babenoid just fine...........I know how you can know for sure 100%.......simply boot Babenoid in NTSV mode On Purpose! and listen to the music..........now put it in PAL.........if the music is slightly slower.its in PAL...and if you still cant see the BAT then you are right about your monitor not being able to see full PAL.........and I am one of the lucky few to have a Magnovox Instant PAL Squash mode monitors :-D but even then.........there are games with are to extreme PAL mode that cant be viewed.

Use the PAL and NTSC commands as I said from Nico Francois if Degrader shows no results.

I can email them to you if you need them.

leirbag28
02-13-2006, 10:09 AM
@mr-a500

Yeeehaaaa!

I was wrong about my Monitor.its better than I thought! it display wayyyyy more than EXTREME PAL overscan!

Man this monitor is the BOMB! is that politically incorrect? hehe

Magnovox/PHILPS monitors are the Best indeed........but personally I will probably take the guts out of this monitor and put it in a 1084s :-)


And Babenoid shows full screen on here.I can see the Bat and the score or numbers below it and even the black border underneath.

so either you have and old 1080 that someone stuck into your 1084 or the Amiga is NOT in PAL mode.as far as EXTREME PAL.........i still think 1084's cant display it.

mr_a500
02-13-2006, 11:03 AM

leirbag28
02-13-2006, 12:14 PM
@mr_a500

1. Im gonna have to locate that Protracker then

2. as far as PAL and NTSC from Nico Francois...........they DEFINITELY work for games for me. For instance.......if I boot a game that will only work in PAL, such as RuffNTumble..and I just boot it...it will only go to the main menu....the game wont show............but if I execute the PAL command right before booting it....it works! (I wish someone could make this game run in NTSC mode! without the image shifting down! Look at the Game OUTFALL! Brilliant use of PAL and NTSC)

3. Well then, you got screwed with a cheap 1084 haha :-)

I do not Currently Have a 1084..........I have the American Version of the PHILIPS CMK8833 or whatever its called.......and its Labeled MAGNOVOX but its the same if not better, than the PHILIPS and any 1084s. I had the 1084, and 1084s D2and 1084s D1 and the Boxy 1084s..I have had them all. Nothing beats this MAGNOVOX/PHILIPS except maybe a PHILIPS TV because although they lack RGB input.they do the same as this monitor which is shrink the PAL imgage.

broken
02-13-2006, 12:14 PM
Wow!

Apparently this is a bit of a hot topic. Any suggestions for the best course of action to take on this?


If I buy an NTSC A1200, what would my best bet for a monitor be if I want to be able to use NTSC and PAL software?

Would looking into a SC/FF device and a VGA monitor be suitable? How do these devices handle PAL screen modes?


I am mostly interested in using it for games, demos and classic Amiga software.

Thanks y'all!

The_Editor
02-13-2006, 01:12 PM
ebay yourself a 240 volt generator, PAL TV, PAL VCR (uk Vcr's play both PAL and NTSC), PAL A1200 & PAL 1084s.

Sorted !!

leirbag28
02-13-2006, 09:22 PM
@broken

Its not really a big problem. Get yourself an NTSC A1200 and a 1084s and your done

I get buy really well with my CD32/SX32 Pro connected to a TV with S-Video..........S-Video is almost as clear as RGB.


I prefer PHILIPS or Magnovox Televisions as alot of them Display PAL if I need it.