At least 345 dead in Hajj Stampede

[Wilse]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4606002.stm

The ritual has seen many lethal stampedes but the number of dead this time is the highest in 16 years.

After a crush in 2004, barriers and stewards were added to improve safety.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

Karlos? You ain't goin' nowhere, now don't you!

:-(

[bloodline]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Karlos? You ain't goin' nowhere, now don't you!

:-(

It's ok, I doubt Karlos needs to throw stones at a rock to prove his devotion...

[uncharted]

That's sad.

Yesterday they were saying how measures had been taken to prevent the stampedes, and it looked like it was working. How comes this keeps happening?

[Cymric]

I'm sure the 345 who died are asking Allah the very same thing at the moment.

[Seehund]

bloodline wrote:

It's ok, I doubt Karlos needs to throw stones at a rock to prove his devotion...


Yes he does. :) If he has the financial and physical means, it's his duty to perform hajj at least once in his life. AFAIK, throwing those stones are part of hajj.

OTOH, I just read that Saudi Arabia allows max 2 million pilgrims a year, so it's impossible for all the over a billion muslims in the world to even perform one hajj in their lifetime...

[Speelgoedmannetje]

Seehund wrote:

bloodline wrote:

It's ok, I doubt Karlos needs to throw stones at a rock to prove his devotion...


Yes he does. :) If he has the financial and physical means, it's his duty to perform hajj at least once in his life. AFAIK, throwing those stones are part of hajj.
One can interpret things differently :roll:

[Karlos]

bloodline wrote:

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Karlos? You ain't goin' nowhere, now don't you!

:-(

It's ok, I doubt Karlos needs to throw stones at a rock to prove his devotion...


No, but I am looking forward to performing Hajj and having a go one day ;-)

It's not the tradition of "stoning the shaitan" or any of the other rites of Hajj that a person goes for (although they serve as important symbolic reminders), rather it is the sacrifice they make of their time, income and whatever other hardships they may endure to get there, the virtues they pledge to follow, the very experience itself and the belief that in doing so you are completing on of the fundamental aspects of your faith. It's not every day you find yourself united in a crowd of 2 million or more people from every corner of the world. Friends I know that have been have found it a profound experience.

The fatalities are saddening, of course. Pragmatically, I imagine it is extremely difficult to control such large crowds of highly determined people, but then again it also seems like more could be done to prevent such things. The bottlenecks are well known as are the anticipated number of pilgrims.

The only consolation for the relatives of the dead that remain is that (assuming they believe in the benefits of Hajj) those that died did so having been cleansed of their sins. However, I don't imagine that this would come as much comfort to the majority of ordinary muslims in the grip of grief, myself included.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

But Karlos, it's just plain bad, so many people, so devoted, so much hysteria...
I already feel bad in human groups of a fraction of a fraction of that size. Large crowds are evil, no matter what their ideals are.

[Karlos]

But Karlos, it's just plain bad, so many people, so devoted, so much hysteria...

There are crowds and there are crowds. Whilst genuinely immense, these crowds are generally peaceful - it's not a crowd of hysterical people spoiling for trouble.

What tends to happen is that the eagerness of too many people to get into one place at the same time causes a crush. Then a panic ensues, then a stampede and lots of people get hurt or killed. Of course, once that happens, you get a degree of hysteria of the plain old fashioned terrified variety :-(

I seem to recall there were plans to build a massive throughfare for the known trouble areas to replace much older ones that are clearly stretched beyond capacity. Of course that costs a lot of money, it will doubtless take more incidents like this to press the issue. The other problem is that these problems occur a few days towards the end of the month of Hajj, the rest of the year people performing Umra (like Hajj but can be taken at any time of the year) amount to much smaller numbers and people quickly forget that something needs to be done *before* the next year.

[Karlos]

Seehund wrote:

OTOH, I just read that Saudi Arabia allows max 2 million pilgrims a year, so it's impossible for all the over a billion muslims in the world to even perform one hajj in their lifetime...


Presently, of that billion, the majority will never have the financial means to anyway.

Also, AFAIK, this refers to 2 million people performing Hajj, which is possible just one month in the year. The rest of the year large (but not nearly as large as Hajj) people are still going. That raises the number of people at least able to step foot there significantly.

[uncharted]

I saw a report that they'd extended the riturals a bit to stop the crush, it seemed to do well on Wednesday, bit it seems not have made any difference Yesterday.

Lighten the mood a bit:

How do you spot the British muslims at Hajj?

They're the ones who form an orderly queue, and chat about the weather. They also, after casting their stone, appologise profusely to the management and offer to pay for damages :-)

[bloodline]

@Karlos, do an umra then, it sounds a lot safer!!

[Karlos]

uncharted wrote:
I saw a report that they'd extended the riturals a bit to stop the crush, it seemed to do well on Wednesday, bit it seems not have made any difference Yesterday.


They also made the pillars into long broad walls allowing more people at once to throw their stones (they are really just pebbles, not a good hefty chunk) and protect people on the opposite side.

It's just the numbers that are overwhelming.


Lighten the mood a bit:

How do you spot the British muslims at Hajj?

They're the ones who form an orderly queue, and chat about the weather. They also, after casting their stone, appologise profusely to the management and offer to pay for damages :-)

:roflmao:

[Karlos]

bloodline wrote:
@Karlos, do an umra then, it sounds a lot safer!!


Most people do Umra as a sort of trial run to give them an idea of what Hajj will be like. Not sure how valid that is, considering just how many more people there are during Hajj.

[bloodline]

Karlos wrote:

bloodline wrote:
@Karlos, do an umra then, it sounds a lot safer!!


Most people do Umra as a sort of trial run to give them an idea of what Hajj will be like. Not sure how valid that is, considering just how many more people there are during Hajj.

Well, nothing justifies putting your life in danger. Never... if it would help I could tie you to a bed when you are supposed to go, that way it wouldn't be your fault that you couldn't go :idea:

[uncharted]

bloodline wrote:


Well, nothing justifies putting your life in danger. Never... if it would help I could tie you to a bed when you are supposed to go, that way it wouldn't be your fault that you couldn't go :idea:

Erm, some thoughts should be kept to yourself!

:lol:

[Karlos]

@Bloodline

Just being alive puts your life in danger. Every time you eat, drink, cross the road, ride a bike, drive your car, take the darker shortcut home, get sick or a million other things. People die constantly, some in all kinds of absurd ways often when they least expected it.

There's no point in fearing death in any of the myriad of forms it may come for it itself doesn't discriminate, it can't be stopped, postponed, bribed or negotiated with and in the end it will find you no matter how you might try to avoid it.

If you stop to worry about about all the things that could put your life at risk, you'd be paralyzed.

All you can do is make the most of your life and live it to the best of your ability - of course this is where people differ in opinion on how to do that, but I think we can all make up our own minds.

[Karlos]

uncharted wrote:

Erm, some thoughts should be kept to yourself!

:lol:

:roflmao: I guess my avatar has something to do with the formation of that suggestion. I guess it is due for a change soon...

[bloodline]

Karlos wrote:
@Bloodline

Just being alive puts your life in danger. Every time you eat, drink, cross the road, ride a bike, drive your car, take the darker shortcut home, get sick or a million other things. People die constantly, some in all kinds of absurd ways often when they least expected it.

There's no point in fearing death in any of the myriad of forms it may come for it itself doesn't discriminate, it can't be stopped, postponed, bribed or negotiated with and in the end it will find you no matter how you might try to avoid it.

If you stop to worry about about all the things that could put your life at risk, you'd be paralyzed.

All you can do is make the most of your life and live it to the best of your ability - of course this is where people differ in opinion on how to do that, but I think we can all make up our own minds.

Now you're just nit picking! You know what I was talking about :-D

[Karlos]

bloodline wrote:

Now you're just nit picking! You know what I was talking about :-D

Seriously, there is always a calculated risk in any course of action you take. Worrying unduly about it is largely unproductive.

[bloodline]

Karlos wrote:

bloodline wrote:

Now you're just nit picking! You know what I was talking about :-D

Seriously, there is always a calculated risk in any course of action you take. Worrying unduly about it is largely unproductive.

Exacly... why try and run across the motorway, I would prefer to find a bridge :-)

[Karlos]

Ah, but therein lies the crux. The risk is calculated. You know implicitly that running across a motorway has a very high probability of ending in your demise. You'd not worry about it, you'd just find a bridge.

Conversely, despite the death toll / frequency and history of accidents, the statistical risk of dying on Hajj is in reality, very, very small given the numbers involved and the periodicy with which I am likely to attend. I'm far more likely to meet my end in a road accident, yet that doesn't dissuade me from getting into a car. Why worry about Hajj?

[Speelgoedmannetje]

Karlos wrote:
Ah, but therein lies the crux. The risk is calculated. You know implicitly that running across a motorway has a very high probability of ending in your demise. You'd not worry about it, you'd just find a bridge.

Conversely, despite the death toll / frequency and history of accidents, the statistical risk of dying on Hajj is in reality, very, very small given the numbers involved and the periodicy with which I am likely to attend. I'm far more likely to meet my end in a road accident, yet that doesn't dissuade me from getting into a car. Why worry about Hajj?Consider also the timespan of it..

[Karlos]

@Speel

I've already spent more combined hours in statistically far more dangerous situations.

Consider some 2 million people passed that particular day. Sadly, 300+ people died in this accident, but this accident had only a certain probability of occuring (after all, it doesn't happen every year). Looking in the long term, comparing the number of people that perform Hajj yearly to the number of people that are killed doing it, you are looking at a realistic fatality rate of one in millions.

I am more at risk of fatal injury or accident playing a sport.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

Just be carefull :-(

[Karlos]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Just be carefull :-(

If/when I do go, I will be. Don't worry :-)

[Speelgoedmannetje]

No offence, but do you actually feel you need to go?
It just seems to me so, ehm, down-to-earth :-?

[Karlos]

@Speel.

Well, I don't feel any need-driven compulsion or overriding sense of duty or anything like that. I want to do it and hopefully one day I will. I think this is a point many people are missing.

There are many different things people aspire to do that have various dangers, some moreso than others. Whatever you have to overcome only increases the sense of accomplishment. Even then, I don't find this one particularly perilous compared to climbing a mountain, for example (something else I'd love to do someday).

[bloodline]

Karlos wrote:
@Speel.

Even then, I don't find this one particularly perilous compared to climbing a mountain, for example (something else I'd love to do someday).

You want to climb a mountain too!! :-o By gods man!!! do you have a death wish!!

[Speelgoedmannetje]

bloodline wrote:
do you have a death wish!!Karlos, there are NO 72 virgins waiting for you after you die, I repeat: there are NO 72 virgins waiting for you after you die! :-o

[bloodline]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:

bloodline wrote:
do you have a death wish!!Karlos, there are NO 72 virgins waiting for you after you die, I repeat: there are NO 72 virgins waiting for you after you die! :-o

There might be... I doubt it... but you never know ;-)

bloodline wrote:

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:

bloodline wrote:
do you have a death wish!!Karlos, there are NO 72 virgins waiting for you after you die, I repeat: there are NO 72 virgins waiting for you after you die! :-o

There might be... I doubt it... but you never know ;-)

Nah, *everybody* knows it's 72 raisins.

metalman said so, so it must be true!

[bloodline]

mdma wrote:

bloodline wrote:

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:

bloodline wrote:
do you have a death wish!!Karlos, there are NO 72 virgins waiting for you after you die, I repeat: there are NO 72 virgins waiting for you after you die! :-o

There might be... I doubt it... but you never know ;-)

Nah, *everybody* knows it's 72 raisins.

metalman said so, so it must be true!

Well... the question should not be, "are there 72 virgins?"... but if Karlos wants them and are they of the right type :-D

[Speelgoedmannetje]

bloodline wrote:

There might be... I doubt it... but you never know ;-)
I don't want 72 virgins :cry:

[Karlos]

bloodline wrote:

Karlos wrote:
@Speel.

Even then, I don't find this one particularly perilous compared to climbing a mountain, for example (something else I'd love to do someday).

You want to climb a mountain too!! :-o By gods man!!! do you have a death wish!!

I didn't say I ever will do it, but I would like to. Probably a throwback to my younger days when I did quite a bit of hiking and climbing :-D