The truth is out there, closer than you think

[xraYman]

I find it very interesting how so many of you feel that religion (Christianity in particular) is complete nonsense. If there is no God, why do you even speak of one? Why do you demonstrate such vitriol against someone that you don't believe exists? Could it be that deep inside you know there is a God and you are fighting tooth and nail to convince yourself otherwise? It may be a very comforting thing to think that there is no one to whom you will be held accountable when you die. You will die by the way, and then what? Is this all there is? If this is all there is perhaps we should all just live like a hog and die like a dog.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

one expression: wishfull thinking.

Could it be that deep inside you know there is a God and you are fighting tooth and nail to convince yourself otherwise?no.


I hope this explains it all and there's no need for further discussing this.

[KennyR]

I find it very interesting how so many of you feel that religion (Christianity in particular) is complete nonsense. If there is no God, why do you even speak of one?

What kind of logic is that? "If you don't believe it exists, why do you talk about it?"

We talk about it because other people invented it, not because we (atheists) did. In the same way we talk about other forms of human idolatry and religion. None have ever been proven, most are forgotten, but we still have to find words to refer to these beliefs.

Could it be that deep inside you know there is a God and you are fighting tooth and nail to convince yourself otherwise?

Broken logic again. Because I might fight to convince someone who is mad that there isn't a purple hippo smoking gooseberries in my loft doesn't mean that I fear there is one. I would normally ignore such people; but if this mad person then went on to try to change society to reflect his mad beliefs and restrict the freedoms of others because of it, then of course I'll debunk him. And not because I'm afraid he might be right.

It may be a very comforting thing to think that there is no one to whom you will be held accountable when you die.

Since we were never given any absolute and beyond-doubt criteria of how we should live our lives, it would be impossible to live up to what standard we should be accountable for, and so judgement would be unfair and 'ungodly'. There is the Bible, yes, but it is full of glaring inaccuracies and errors, and it is not the only holy book out there, and it was written by other human beings. To follow the Bible when I know most of it is wrong is completely unconsciable to me.

If this is all there is perhaps we should all just live like a hog and die like a dog.

That's called nihilism, and it isn't restricted to or found among all atheists. Just because you don't believe in fairy stories about a one true god doesn't make your life suddenly not worth something. Or immoral. Or pointless. Or unworthy. Or unholy. Or any of that other crap you religious types like to enforce upon people who don't share your beliefs.

[Cymric]

Before I answer, I get the impression that I'm swallowing troll bait: the arguments you use are a little old and out of date. But I'm a nice person, so I'll be serious.

First of all, religion is nonsense by definition. Yes, for many people, it is a big comfort. It is an important part of their lives. It gives them purpose, direction, and in many cases a feeling that despite many atrocities committed by fellow humans, there will be Justice in the end. As a staunch atheist, I acknowledge all this. But! If you really, really look at what all those people believe, it always turns out that it is unprovable and unfalsifiable. Religion inevitably invokes leaps of faith, which noone can actually show to be true. Yet in the majority of cases you stake your immortal soul on their validity.

The above forms the core of my attitude towards religious people: despite their quite often shrewd and scientific minds, they insist on unquestioningly following and defending a set of beliefs. Or, even worse, they question their beliefs, but refuse to acknowledge that the most fundamental premise is wrong. To me, that is doublethink in its purest form. It is rape of the logical mind. It has something very naive to it as well: we listen to fairy tales as a child, and later learn events thus depicted never occur in Real Life. But religion is an exception! I find it quite pathetic, since it is just as big a fairy tale.

Second, while many religious people are content with their beliefs, there are quite a few who see it as their duty to convert other people. The most obvious example is of course the Jehovah cult, but far more insidious are all those agencies 'helping' poor people in the Third World, while at the same time gently persuading them to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their saviour. I am always reminded by the following saying when dealing with such people: "People who want to share their opinion with you hardly ever want you to share yours with them." I think many quiet and content believers will agree with me that the examples I gave are the extremes, but at the same time they will not lift a finger to stop or openly question them. If I had a penny for every time someone told me that such extremists are not 'true' christians/muslims/... I'd be rich. The attitude is hypocritical.

Third, I am forced to argue about God since religious people have an annoying tendency to forget that their opinion is not the only one in the world. Take euthanasia as an example: here in the Netherlands, it is legal for someone to request it, and have a physician perform the procedure without the latter being punished for it, provided he was careful and methodical. Many staunch christians have fought for decades to keep this law from ever reaching the law book: it was murder, the doctor was ending the miraculous gift of life---something only to be done by God, God meant for us to suffer, and so forth. You can think of all the arguments yourself. Quite frankly, such an attitude is offensive to non- or different-believers. They do not believe in (such a) God, so why should they be inhibited in their way of life because another group cannot deal with that particular fact? In order to make your own opinion heard, you have to talk about or argue against God, even if you don't believe in such an entity.

I can go on and on and on and on. It never ceases to amaze me that people can pretend their religion is so pure and beautiful, yet is so tarnished and rotten at the core that even a blind man could see it. Humans are funny creatures.

And that is why under the right circumstances, I will be very vitriolic towards believing people.

[T_Bone]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
one expression: wishfull thinking.

Could it be that deep inside you know there is a God and you are fighting tooth and nail to convince yourself otherwise?no.


I hope this explains it all and there's no need for further discussing this.

:lol: ;-)

[T_Bone]

xraYman wrote:
I find it very interesting how so many of you feel that religion (Christianity in particular) is complete nonsense. If there is no God, why do you even speak of one? Why do you demonstrate such vitriol against someone that you don't believe exists? Could it be that deep inside you know there is a God and you are fighting tooth and nail to convince yourself otherwise? It may be a very comforting thing to think that there is no one to whom you will be held accountable when you die. You will die by the way, and then what? Is this all there is? If this is all there is perhaps we should all just live like a hog and die like a dog.

Are you Christian? If so, do you not believe that all other religions are nonsense?

There are 2000 religions in this world, the only difference between a Christian and an Athiest are:

The Christian thinks 1999 of the religions are nonsense.

The Athiest thinks 2000 of the religions are nonsense.

we could also add in others...

The Muslims think that 1999 of the religions are nonsense... etc.

So if you look around, the one thing we all have in common is, we ALL believe MOST religions are nonsense. the Athiest is only slightly different in that they add "1" to that number. Not much of a difference at all really.
Christians think almost as many religions are nonsense as Athiests.

[blobrana]

@T_Bone
Oh oh...

no Valhalla for you then...

http://www.amb-danemark.fr/vie_danemark/images/odin.jpg





---------------------------
`More tea vicar` - Conan

[cecilia]

And that is why under the right circumstances, I will be very vitriolic towards believing people.you sure are alot nicer about it than me!
:destroy:


xraYman wrote:
It may be a very comforting thing to think that there is no one to whom you will be held accountable when you die. You will die by the way, and then what? Is this all there is? If this is all there is perhaps we should all just live like a hog and die like a dog.sure, buddy - YOU can be a "hog" and a "dog", I'll be a creative and disciplined human being who doesn't need some pathetic voodoo "ghod" to look up to.

I was born to create things that no one else could and I've done that. I have done that by learning and applying myself and persistence. and never once needing any ghod to do it.
I'm proud of my accomplishments and if i died tomorrow, it would be fine by me. when i was about 10 i realized that it was useless to worry about what may happen after i'm dead.
What matters is that while one lives, one does what one is supposed to do while alive. when one is dead - one does that. meaning nothing.

[Karlos]

@Kenny

Because I might fight to convince someone who is mad that there isn't a purple hippo smoking gooseberries in my loft doesn't mean that I fear there is one

What? Are you sure? Can you check? Bollocks! I just bought my ticket to Glasgow to attend the upper shrine of the fruitsmokingpurplehippo and everything! :-x

Man, I gotta admit that image had me rolling for the last 10 minutes! I had a lousy day and that cheered me right up :-D

[T_Bone]

blobrana wrote:
@T_Bone
Oh oh...

no Valhalla for you then...



Nope :-)

But I practice several religions at certain times just to keep family sections happy. If it turns out there is a god, I'm going to plea bargain. :-)

[whabang]

It may be a very comforting thing to think that there is no one to whom you will be held accountable when you die.
What are you rambling aboot?
I have to prove myself in battle, lest I'll be sent to Hel's kingdom!

<edit>
Blob beat me to it! :-D
</edit>

[iamaboringperson]

http://www.mezcom.com.au/Ralmez/GLARSON/god.jpg

:-) What I would like to say is that if such a spiritual entity exists, you can only prove it to yourself (not others).

[iamaboringperson]

http://bjornekback.fcpages.com/jokes/larson/larson21.gif

[Cymric]

cecilia wrote:
And that is why under the right circumstances, I will be very vitriolic towards believing people.you sure are alot nicer about it than me!
:destroy:
Yes, that is quite probably the case. While I sometimes wish I could force a clean set of thoughts on some die-hard believer, that would make me just as bad as an evangelist, or worse, the Inquisition. I respect the right to one's private thoughts, twisted as they might be, unless they intrude upon what I believe to be fundamental human rights or my own way of life. I also do not debate fundamentalists or literalists anymore: people who do not want to or cannot be convinced by objective evidence will not take your arguments seriously anyway. I have better use of my time.

And to be honest, I am close friends to a few deeply-religious people, and the subject hardly ever crops up. There is simply no need to, as it should be. If there is, it betrays your own insecurity faster than a politician can change his opinion.

[Cymric]

Cymric wrote:
Before I answer, I get the impression that I'm swallowing troll bait...
And since the original poster showed total lack of interest in replying or engaging in the debate, I conclude (s)he was indeed a fundie troll. Next time, keep your opinion to yourself please, unless you are truly interested in our answers.

[KennyR]

The Fundie (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Essays/Phrases.shtml) dictionary.

[blobrana]

Hum,
is it safe enought now to highjack this thread towards something more `X-Files` like....?

[Speelgoedmannetje]

@KennyR

:roflmao:

[bloodline]

Religeous nuts always ask two questions:

a) Who/What do you believe in.
b) how do you know right from wrong/what to do

I always answer:

a) My friends
b) If it brings me plesure or benefits me and/or my friends and does not adversely affect others, then it's probably ok :-)